One year anniversary episode E58 (Hayden Fitzgerald)

Boy does time fly when you’re having fun! This episode marks the one-year anniversary of the Future Tribe Podcast, which means a full year of sitting down with amazing self-starters and having them share their personal experiences/advice for your listening pleasure. Our team here is so proud of how far we have come over the past year and want to thank our audience for your continued support, it truly means the world to us.

 

To commemorate making it this far, our host (Germaine) and producer (Hayden) decided to sit down and chat about the podcasting industry as a whole and where they see it going in the future. In their discussion, the duo shares some lessons they have learnt about podcast production over the past year and give the audience a rundown on what it takes to produce an episode of the show. Afterwards, Hayden and Germaine touch on the benefits podcasts provide creators outside of mere financial return and whether the medium is an optimal advertising channel. The show then concludes with our two team members reminiscing about the show and highlighting what their favourite episodes are.  

What we talk about

• The podcasting landscape
• What utility the medium provides to producers/advertisers
• Tips for starting your own show
• Our favourite memories from the show so far 

 

Links from this episode

https://futuretribe.podbean.com/e/the-journey-to-becoming-a-full-time-youtuber-with-a-quarter-million-subscribers-e56-jarrod-farncomb/ (Our episode w/ Jarrod’s Tech)

https://futuretribe.podbean.com/e/how-to-break-into-the-entertainment-industry-e51-pip-rasmussen-part-1/ (Our episode w/ Pip Rasmussen)

https://www.hyperxgaming.com/us/microphone/quadcast-gaming-microphone (The microphone we use to record)

Find us elsewhere

https://futuretri.be/ (Future Tribe Website)

https://www.instagram.com/futuretri.be/ (Future Tribe on Instagram)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/germainemuller/ (Germaine on LinkedIn)

https://www.instagram.com/germa_ne/ (Germaine on Instagram)

https://futuretheory.com.au/ (Futuretheory Website)

 

Transcript 

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated automatically and as such, may contain various spelling and syntax errors

[00:00:00] Hayden: [00:00:00] That's the biggest problem we run into constantly where our best guests, sometimes I've had the worst equipment and it's ended up being like an episode that I'm not happy with just because I know how good it could have been. 
[00:00:12] Welcome 
[00:00:13] Intro: [00:00:13] to the future tribe podcast, where we're all about taking your future to the next level, whether it is interviewing guests or unpacking strategies, you know, we will be talking about getting things done and backing you a fellow optimistic, go-getters. And now as always, here's your host, the formidable fortunate and highly favoured Germaine Muller. 
[00:00:37] Germaine: [00:00:37] Hello, feature tribe. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. On this episode, we're doing something again a little bit different. , I've got Hayden Fitzgerald with me, how you'd lay Hayden. 
[00:00:48] Hayden: [00:00:48] Real good.
[00:00:50] Germaine: [00:00:50] Thanks for joining. Um, this has a bit of a special sort of episode. I know we had a special episode about what would it be seven or eight episodes ago, but [00:01:00] sort of celebrating the big five over the half century. Um, but on this episode we're actually celebrating. A year since we started the podcast, which is, um, being awesome.
[00:01:09] And you've been there from the start. Yeah. Um, it's, it's all about, I guess, talking, looking back into the podcast itself, um, podcasting in general. Um, and then, um, I mean, we'll start it off with talking about what we do at future theory. Um, the podcast for us was really. Another way of marketing. It's another medium.
[00:01:28] Like, I mean, everyone's familiar with videography. Podcasting is taking on it's own sort of thing around the world, but not so much in Australia yet by field. 
[00:01:39]Hayden: [00:01:39] Um, I feel like podcast consumption is still really big in Australia, but in terms of podcast creators know a lot of people or a lot of podcasts, I listen to it don't actually get created in Australia.
[00:01:50] Germaine: [00:01:50] So it's sort of. We are consuming a lot of international podcasts, 
[00:01:56] Hayden: [00:01:56] which I guess is true for a lot of like entertainment media, but [00:02:00] especially for podcasts. 
[00:02:01] Germaine: [00:02:01] Yeah. It's it's and you know, podcasting is started to really hit mainstream in the last year or so with Spotify purchasing anchor and yeah. Joe Joe Rogan signed.
[00:02:15] Hayden: [00:02:15] So Joe Rogan signed, I believe it was a $200 million deal to basically go exclusive with. Uh, Uh, Spotify, which is pretty common. I mean, other podcasts  have signed pretty big deals like that. So, yeah, it's not surprising, but it is interesting to say like a dollar tag put two, no, the worth of podcasts and yeah.
[00:02:35] Yeah. It's interesting for the creators. It's definitely gives a lot of. You know, power to them and how much they can expect to get from ad revenue and stuff. We'll get, we'll 
[00:02:43] Germaine: [00:02:43] get into that a little bit later on, but, uh, I guess before we get into it, the big, um, thing that we want to talk about was at future theory we do, with your marketing, we build websites.
[00:02:53] We're always looking and experimenting with what's coming up or what's next and trying to, I guess, [00:03:00] be as much ahead of the curve as possible. Um, and. Part of that is, is just the importance of marketing, obviously being, being so marketing focused and the podcast was one of those attempts. Um, and I just wanted to mention before we, I guess really roll into it that we're at the moment actually hiring for a marketing and communications coordinator internally, um, or looking for someone who's, who's going to help us internally as well as engage with clients.
[00:03:25] So. This episode goes out Thursday morning. Um, and the deadline for applications is actually Friday. Um, Afternoon or Friday close of business. So if you're listening to this and you enjoy podcasting, um, you enjoy just marketing plays. Uh, we will have a link in the description, check it out and please supply it.
[00:03:43] But that's a nice segue. You're talking about podcasting more specifically now. We're celebrating a year since we started the podcast. It's I feel like we've learned a lot in the last couple months. 
[00:03:55] Hayden: [00:03:55] Yeah. Compared to where we were like to where we are now. It's night and day. 
[00:03:59] Germaine: [00:03:59] I mean, [00:04:00] I would hope so. 
[00:04:00] Hayden: [00:04:00] Yeah.
[00:04:01] You do anything for a year yet. You're at least rod at it. 
[00:04:06] Germaine: [00:04:06] I mean, we've, we've started uploading videos to YouTube recently. Um, that was something that I meant to do a long, long time ago, but yeah. Time is always, always the problem. And it requires its own sort of videos onto YouTube as a whole other world, a whole other thing.
[00:04:23]Um, but I'm glad that we finally hopped onto that. Um, but over the last 12 months, um, how's it, how's it been for you? Like what, what are some things that you've picked up over the last 12 months Hayden? 
[00:04:34]Hayden: [00:04:34] Um, I think it's always interesting. When you consume a top of media and then, you know, you ended up creating it.
[00:04:41] And I think it would be the same as a person who critiques music or just listens to music generally, and then tries to make their own album. I think you would look at your critiques from when you would just consume a lot differently and knowing like the process of it, what it takes from getting, whether it be a guest don't want to [00:05:00] just, you know, recording something to then publishing it to them, promoting it, how.
[00:05:04] You know, complex that could often be and how time consuming it is. It really gives you an appreciation for podcasting and especially the people who do it really well. 
[00:05:14] Germaine: [00:05:14] Oh, like, I mean, there are a lot of podcasts. I think her podcasts that are quite simply put together, but to me, the biggest sort of appreciation is for those podcasts, that like the storytelling ones, where sort of music, there's a lot of characters.
[00:05:31] I 
[00:05:31] Hayden: [00:05:31] think a good one. And actually I listened to it on your recommendation with business Wars. By. Yes, by. Wondery, 
[00:05:37] Germaine: [00:05:37] yes. Wondery make a whole bunch of podcasts. 
[00:05:40] Hayden: [00:05:40] And I think what I appreciate about these podcasts is a lot of, they actually have people who, who their whole job in terms of podcast production is literally just researching topics.
[00:05:51] It's, you know, doing the. Informational deep dive D get any fact 
[00:05:56] Germaine: [00:05:56] checking, 
[00:05:57] Hayden: [00:05:57] stuff like that, to be able to tell a story that [00:06:00] could, could be done in five minutes over a five hour podcast and whether or not you like that is sort of subjective. I know a lot of people that's sort of why they don't like podcasts because they are a bit long winded.
[00:06:11] But yeah, I mean, I say all that to say it's been really interesting being on the other side of that and saying. You know how hard it is to raise that level of podcast production 
[00:06:22] Germaine: [00:06:22] content. I mean, you know, obviously we, we continue to strive to be as, as good as we can, but like you put in 10 hours a week into it.
[00:06:32]Um, I put in a few hours on top of that. It is, it's a lot of work, but let's talk about the pros of, I mean, We, we knew that it was not going to be easy. We didn't, we didn't sort of pick podcasting because we looked at all these different marketing channels and mediums and thought, Oh, this one will be the easiest to get into.
[00:06:53] But we also identified a lot of positives. I mean, you're a podcast consumer, like a really avid consumer. [00:07:00] I am the same. So we obviously identified some pros and I think it would be unfair not to speak about just how. The, the, the positives around podcasting for me for example, is that you can listen to a podcast.
[00:07:14] Like a lot of people used to listen to radio just as sort of a thing in the background. 
[00:07:19] Hayden: [00:07:19] Yeah. 
[00:07:20] Germaine: [00:07:20] Obviously it changes depending on how information or the podcast is, um, where you want to sort of cling to every single word. But while driving, for example, um, a lot of podcasts. Yes, they have ads, but if you compare radio ads and podcasting ads, I mean, 30 minute podcast might have one or two ad breaks 
[00:07:39] Hayden: [00:07:39] that you can skip, 
[00:07:42] Germaine: [00:07:42] which you got on radio.
[00:07:45] I mean, that's a huge positive for me is that you can just consume it while you're like traveling to work. 
[00:07:50] Hayden: [00:07:50] And that's a big thing, right? I think for me, I learn the best by either watching something or listening to something. Um, I should be a bigger rater than I am. Unfortunately, [00:08:00] I'm not. So the best way to keep updated with news, to learn about specific hobbies too, you know, all that sort of stuff is, as he said, you know, on my 30 minute commute to work, to put it on, get someone who's an expert to give me the synopsis of it, give me the layman version of what's going on and I stay informed and you know, you can talk about it somewhat authoritatively with a person.
[00:08:23] Yeah, 
[00:08:24] Germaine: [00:08:24] yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, I've. I meant to do this sooner and I, and I'm going to do it tomorrow, but I think it's the New York times to do like a condensed sort of this, this day's worth of news. That's one thing that I, I B I've been meaning to consume. I try and do that on YouTube, but the benefit with a podcast is that it's just uploaded condensed audio.
[00:08:50]Um, I do it on YouTube, like I said, but, you know, That's driven around video. So it assumes that you can look at graphs. So look at things. Um, so [00:09:00] that for example is just a quick way of in my driving to work, getting all that info straight off the bat. Yeah. Um, what else, some other positives that you, you can think of?
[00:09:09]Um, 
[00:09:09] Hayden: [00:09:09] I think it is positive and this is sort of true. I think of a lot of media now in the internet age is you can really find things that. That appealed to you. Like if you have a nation interest drive, you know, it's something that's not broad, you know, it's like you're into, um, you're into video games, but you're not just into video games, you're into Nintendo games.
[00:09:28] And you're not just into Nintendo games, you're into this specific type of game. Exactly. I like there there'll be podcast about it. And you know, if you're into technology more generally, um, you know, there are podcasts out there that will give you a deep dive. Into all the new tech that's coming out and get really into the weeds about technical specifications and stuff like that.
[00:09:50] And that's basically true with anything now. I mean, I think people have a misconception about podcasts that they are all either true crime, [00:10:00] but yeah, really. I think what I like about them is that. You know, if you're into, you know, electronic music, there'll be one that's talking about that 
[00:10:08] Germaine: [00:10:08] specifically for, 
[00:10:09] Hayden: [00:10:09] if you are into, you know, international relations and politics like that part of the news, like there's something for you there.
[00:10:15] Yeah. And 
[00:10:16] Germaine: [00:10:16] I think that's a bit of like pro and a con as well though, in that the barrier to entry is a little bit low for podcasting. I mean, don't get me wrong. I think. For the last little while of doing this, what we've picked up is that yes, you can start with a very low barrier to entry, very low cost, very low time commitment, but to get it really good, it takes 10, 15 hours of, of work per like one hour episode.
[00:10:45]Um, but I guess the con with that is that. A lot of people also just do podcasting. That's like recording off their phone. I've seen that comment happen a lot. Um, or of people sort of saying, you know, there's nothing stopping you from podcasting. Just pick up your phone. Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:00] So perhaps it takes a little bit of filtering.
[00:11:02] I mean, anchor for example is a completely free hosting service. So there are a lot of. There's that that low barrier to entry is a pro and a con in that you might get lackluster stuff, but simultaneously you could actually uncover someone who's very insightful, informative with the information as well.
[00:11:18] I guess 
[00:11:19] Hayden: [00:11:19] I don't actually, it hurts the platform itself. I don't think that being flooded with bad podcast, just because of the law of averages, you know, in terms of how many good podcasts or off a bad one is bad thing. I think it just puts more impotence on. Spotify and Apple podcast to really curate that stuff better.
[00:11:38] I mean, it's sort of like the app store problem, right. Where it's like, yeah. The best thing about the app store is that you have a hundred dollar development kit and you can create an app. But the problem that has is, you know, you create a really good app. How do you get eyes on it without paying for it?
[00:11:52] Germaine: [00:11:52] Advertising. 
[00:11:53] Hayden: [00:11:53] I've been talking about like specific app store placement. Sorry. It does become, 
[00:11:58] Germaine: [00:11:58] yeah. I mean, it's a good point. [00:12:00] So it's sort of the same with, I guess, a video and everything. I'm sure there are bad YouTube. Isn't that? So that is a, that is a fair point. 
[00:12:06] Hayden: [00:12:06] Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, in general, I think the low barrier to entry, I really am a big fan of it.
[00:12:15] I think it sort of takes away the power from traditional media outlets that. You know, typically want to create safe content. That's very, you know, appealing to a mass market. 
[00:12:25] Germaine: [00:12:25] It just stops the niche stuff that you were talking about from happening. 
[00:12:29] Hayden: [00:12:29] Exactly. I mean, like 
[00:12:30] Germaine: [00:12:30] you can't make a business case for something very, very niche, but if your investments are very low, but you're really passionate about 
[00:12:36] Hayden: [00:12:36] it.
[00:12:37] Yeah. 
[00:12:37] Germaine: [00:12:37] Well, the business case even so difficult to make anymore. Um, and perhaps, yeah, you just uncover someone who's really good at what they like, who really loves nineties, Nintendo games and talking about them is really insightful. Um, so yeah, perhaps it's just so low barrier to entry that it creates sort of that benefit of you can just hear from really.
[00:12:59] Hayden: [00:12:59] Yeah, yeah, [00:13:00] yeah. Um, I also think that low barrier to entry. The barrier to entry is so low that starting a podcast, isn't that huge of an investment, which especially if you're, you're not just a single entity trying to create a podcast, like you are tasked with creating it for a company or something. I think that's why you can sort of justify to be more because if you are like a comp, like a company, who's like, you know, thinking of it, looking into it, I mean, you could get a podcast done for pretty cheap.
[00:13:28] Like if you want it to really strip it back and not make it like a whole. 
[00:13:32] Germaine: [00:13:32] Yeah, you can outsource the editing. You can record it yourself. Yeah. Even if you hire someone, you can probably get someone from my think like a school kid almost to, um, hop on board. Um, obviously you're not gonna, you get a whole lot of quality, but yeah.
[00:13:46] Yeah. It's cheaper than probably getting a videographer. I mean, video camera equipment. Yeah. Oh, like video equipment would be quite a big investment. Um, I think that's the days and segwaying to. Quickly touching on the equipment that we [00:14:00] use. Um, I think the biggest cost for us has been this microphone, the HyperX, what costs, which we'll link to, obviously everything that we talk about building turn the description as with every single episode.
[00:14:14]Um, The microphone was a big one. I think a lot of people would have a laptop or a device that they can record on. Yeah. I've heard of people recording, editing and recording on iPads, which, you know, even that, that, again, lowers the wrong of what you need. Like good luck editing a video on an, on a, on an older iPad.
[00:14:31]Um, you could probably spend 1500, yeah. iPad that could edit video, but. Yeah. And that's besides the point. So I'm talking about that sort of cost it's again, quite, quite low. Um, quite. Quite, I guess, palatable because especially nowadays with COVID zoom calls, I've been using this awesome Mike for zoom calls, and I've been told that I'm coming across really clearly and really nicely, which is, which is another benefit.
[00:14:57]Um, so I think you can justify that pretty [00:15:00] well. And I would think that these sorts of like microphones would hold value pretty well. It's not like, you know, there's a new microphone. Every, every. Six months like you get with cameras and phones, then devalues a microphone. Like a good quality microphone is a good quality microphone.
[00:15:16] Hayden: [00:15:16] Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, that's sort of the audiology I hold with podcasting where I don't think hyper good quality is very important. Like we're not sound engineers by any means. We are not like producing music that, you know, like needs to be. 
[00:15:32] Germaine: [00:15:32] That is technically just beautiful 
[00:15:35] Hayden: [00:15:35] end of the day. It doesn't matter.
[00:15:36] But I think that. Getting your audio, audio to a certain level, to a certain acceptable level where, you know, you would listen to it as a consumer and be like, yep, this is fine. Like, well, the audio is like normalize. Like 
[00:15:49] Germaine: [00:15:49] there's not too much background noise. 
[00:15:51] Hayden: [00:15:51] It's not just like the annoying stuff that would indicate to a consumer or to a listener that, ah, this is a pretty low production.
[00:16:00] [00:15:59] Yeah. Venture, maybe I'll come back when. They actually put some money or time into it. 
[00:16:04] Germaine: [00:16:04] Well, if they live in lasted that long, cause it could just seem like, you know, a hobby, like again, I've heard of people, I've heard podcasts of people. You can tell that they've recorded on a phone. Yeah. Probably sitting in a car cause you can hear sort of traffic going past.
[00:16:19]Um, and yeah, that, that, that maybe sends the wrong message. 
[00:16:23] Hayden: [00:16:23] Yeah, it does. But I think what's funny about it though. It's like a lot of the big podcasts I listen to and like these are. Huge podcasts. I weren't like to say them out by name, but like they recorded in a studio or a coordinate house and you can hear like police arms going off in the background.
[00:16:36] You can see quite clearly that there's like background noise, but they sort of leave it in because the voices are coming through clearly enough and they edited lot. 
[00:16:46] Germaine: [00:16:46] Yeah. Perhaps it speaks a little to city. Does that, is that how you sort of look at it or is it yeah, yeah, a bit annoying. 
[00:16:53] Hayden: [00:16:53] Well, I think it's sort of what you've you and I have discussed where it's like is the marginal benefit of may [00:17:00] editing out, like spending an hour, trying to edit out this background noise was the marginal 
[00:17:05] Germaine: [00:17:05] benefits of not hearing it.
[00:17:07] Hayden: [00:17:07] Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, the cost of me is going to take an hour to go through an hour and a half episode and like try to make the audio as good as possible. Is it worth that like, you know, my hourly wage. You know, to the consumer, like that sort of way, you have to balance it out. And it's like with video, I think it'd be more important because if you have like a poorly edited video and 
[00:17:32] Germaine: [00:17:32] it really tells you, it 
[00:17:33] Hayden: [00:17:33] really does tell like, and you can say the people, her a content creative credit is first and like edited second versus the other way around.
[00:17:41] And I think with podcasts, like the content is key and having a microphone and stuff, school is like, 
[00:17:48] Germaine: [00:17:48] Yeah. And don't get us wrong. I don't think you have to invest a, I can't remember how much this was, but it was probably around $300. I want to say. Or $400. Yeah. I, and that's [00:18:00] Australian dollars probably like costs a third of that in the U S probably quarter of that, just because of the Australian technology tax.
[00:18:07] But I think you can get very serviceable microphones for like, 20 $30, as long as you're smart about it. Hop on, hop on Amazon, look for reviews. Um, I think the huge message here is that getting a dedicated microphone almost always is better than using an inbuilt microphone. Yeah. Um, whether that's the ear phones or whether that's in on a device.
[00:18:29]Um, and that's, that's sort of a nice segue into two different points that I want to make that you've picked up on is. People guests to hop on, um, podcasts with a microphone, um, on like an inbuilt mic and they type away. And you can sort of hear that sort of really boomy, tidying sort of 
[00:18:49] Hayden: [00:18:49] noise. I mean, that's sort of the most, the most disappointed I've ever been like creating the podcast has been when we have a guest on they're awesome.
[00:18:59] They're really [00:19:00] enthusiastic. Greg content. Great talking points. But they've gotten like a wide iPhone. Headphone is like, you know, the audio source and they've forgotten that to like, take out like the, you know, the voice, what would you call it? Like the voice, like, yeah. Little 
[00:19:17] Germaine: [00:19:17] from the microphone, 
[00:19:18] Hayden: [00:19:18] from the microphone.
[00:19:19] And so the audio is terrible. 
[00:19:20] Germaine: [00:19:20] I didn't like, and then that like bumps into their clothing or like, 
[00:19:25] Hayden: [00:19:25] yeah. 
[00:19:26] Germaine: [00:19:26] And 
[00:19:27] Hayden: [00:19:27] it was crazy. It's like annoying that again. So I think that's like a big problem. Cause obviously we're a guest based show. That's the biggest problem we run into constantly where our best guests, sometimes I've had the worst equipment ended up being like an episode that I'm not happy with.
[00:19:43] Just because I know how have been, 
[00:19:45] Germaine: [00:19:45] especially given the quality of content, like you're saying like just awesome value, but they've just missed out on those things. And there's a, there's a limit cause. Again, we could talk about like a lot of your, time's also spent trying to get guests on [00:20:00] the podcast, especially being more Australia focused.
[00:20:03] Now we've found that people aren't, it's not that they need to be like really, really convinced to come on, but they're much less familiar with it. And, um, it takes a bit more work to find guests and then find good quality guests. 
[00:20:17] Hayden: [00:20:17] Yeah, I think. Like two things on that point. I think Corona Varas, funnily enough has been the best thing to happen for the production of our show.
[00:20:26] Just because we do guess, um, we interview guests over. Yeah. And now that zoom is being pretty much adopted by every workplace. Um, imaginable, people are more familiar with it. They understand what, you know, makes good audio on zoom, what equipment they should be using, et cetera, et cetera. But. I think like even bigger than having good equipment is funny against who actually wants to come on your show and talk to you about the things that you want to talk about.
[00:20:54] And it's not just an, a it's self promotion. I think one page, piece of advice, if you are running like a [00:21:00] guest based show is to really vet the people who are coming on, like really well. Like, and so if you're going to like a podcast guest group, Uh, and you know, you'll get hundreds of responses from people who want to come along, but a lot of them are people who have like, you know, content marketing firms.
[00:21:19] Well, they want to 
[00:21:19] Germaine: [00:21:19] do like a new book coming out, 
[00:21:21] Hayden: [00:21:21] coming out, et cetera, and all of their appearances basically. Yeah. And leave out the advertisement for the product. They're trying to show. And it's really hard to determine sometimes because that's how these guys, these guys were really good at it. 
[00:21:33] Germaine: [00:21:33] Yeah. I mean, they know what they're doing this isn't sort of the first time they're trying to convince a podcast manager or a podcast producer that they deserve to be a guest.
[00:21:40] Yeah. I think what's interesting to me is like where we've booked in an episode. And then I get an email saying, hi Jermaine, I'm looking forward to this episode with our, with us. Um, These are some questions you might want to ask me. And I'm like, and I get that. I get that inexperienced or not. So [00:22:00] confident you to say fair enough, Hayden.
[00:22:03] Thank you. I'll ask those questions, but you've got to be really careful in vetting them. I mean, my response has been, thank you. I appreciate that. Just as, just so you know, here's the list of the questions that we will be discussing, you know, I might try and ask some of these questions, but. Only if it makes sense only if it's a logical way, not a platform feeder market.
[00:22:25]Um, I think there are, I've heard of podcasts that, and fair enough, but they're podcasts money to be on the episode just because they can, I guess then they have the reach. You've got to be careful, I guess, both sides that the guest isn't, I'm just trying to promote something and the podcasts are adjusted.
[00:22:43] Isn't trying to make money because think podcasting. And touch go niche stuff as well. Like it's almost a passion project, I think. Yeah, 
[00:22:54] Hayden: [00:22:54] I think for some people, but I think you touched on an interesting point where it's sort of like the value exchange [00:23:00] where if a big guest is coming on your show, should they expect some money back from you or vice versa if you're going on their show with a huge reach, 
[00:23:10] Germaine: [00:23:10] should you be paying?
[00:23:12] Hayden: [00:23:12] I mean, but it is interesting because, uh, there was, uh, a music ANR. Uh, I forget his name. And he was basically saying that a lot of young artists now will refuse to go on podcasts and stuff like that unless they paid money. Right, right. They weren't going to Joe Rogan experience unless they see some of the ad revenue or basically show revenue from that.
[00:23:31] And the, and you know, there's like a big discussion about that because basically you got one camp saying. That's right. If you're a guest based show, like this is basically 
[00:23:40] Germaine: [00:23:40] sort of leveraging the guests to reach for your podcasts growth. Yeah. Fair. 
[00:23:46] Hayden: [00:23:46] But the yellow camp is sort of saying that you'd be stupid to no forego an opportunity to go on like the Joe Rogan podcast, because like you're seeing people like Jordan Peterson and these other guys like make full careers out of being [00:24:00] featured on these platforms and then be able to like, monetize that, 
[00:24:02] Germaine: [00:24:02] leverage that and grow that.
[00:24:04] Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:24:05] Hayden: [00:24:05] But I mean, yeah, it is interesting. 
[00:24:07] Germaine: [00:24:07] Maybe it's, um, maybe it's a sign that podcasting is sort of reaching prime time. That cause the beauty with podcasting is that it's, it's a, it's a funny one because it's not like low, it's low barrier to entry. You can it's it's audio. There's not like one authority on it.
[00:24:25] And that's why I think Spotify invested so much into. Podcasting because they're trying to become the authority, but yeah, no one sort of claimed it. Like the video you go to YouTube. For like short texts stuff. You go to Twitter for everything. You go to Facebook for images, you go to like Pinterest or Instagram.
[00:24:46] No one owns, I I'm sure. Some people would say, Oh, you know, Apple podcasts, but not really. Not really. Like, it doesn't really like own because there's because Apple podcasts is just a way to, it's [00:25:00] almost the. The vehicle and not, not the originator of podcasts, podcasts are hosted with podcast hosts. 
[00:25:07] Hayden: [00:25:07] Yeah, exactly.
[00:25:08] Right. And I think Apple is funny enough, cause like, just like the app store, they've sort of fallen ass backwards into becoming the premier podcast, like hosting platform, just like they do with the app store where it's at. They have put no effort into making it the best place for creative and put no effort into making it the most optimized way to like grow your audience.
[00:25:28] They've just said, Hey, alpha platform is the most ubiquitous. Like here's a podcast app, like stupid, not to. 
[00:25:36] Germaine: [00:25:36] Mm Hmm. It's just sort of fallen into it. I mean, there are signs that like Apple, for example, uh, this is a thing it's always a war, right? Like Google search, for example, you want to search something, you go to Google.
[00:25:49]Um, there's always these battles, like browser Wars. There's always battles to become the place for something and Apple. From what I've heard and what I've read, and what I've seen is, is trying [00:26:00] to become the place for podcasts. I personally, I mean, one big floor with it. Is that like irony, right? Good. For a new user.
[00:26:07] Yeah, sure. Right off the bat. There's no, there's no Apple app, Apple podcasts app. Um, I think they are the silly not to just make it Apple podcasts app for Android. What stops them from doing that. And then just look at Apple podcasts, like you said, as a distribution channel, not as one of the ways to listen to podcasts, if you're on an iPhone, it's a whole channel in, and of it's like, like I changed the words for a long time.
[00:26:33] Like people used to like launch on iTunes like that. That was it. You know, you sold your song for dollar 99 or 99 cents sold an album for nine 99 or whatever it was. And they did a really good job of that. And I think that perhaps trying to do it, but I think it speaks for the democracy of podcasting that someone like Apple or even Spotify, I haven't been able to just nail it down as they're done.
[00:26:57] Hayden: [00:26:57] Yeah. And I think the problem is, [00:27:00] and I think maybe why Apple hasn't invested so aggressively as Spotify is because really in my mind, the reason Spotify is doing it, not to own the podcast realm, but because podcasting is intrinsically linked to. To that music platform, which is where they make the bulk of their money.
[00:27:14] So like the reason why Spotify pays so much money to get these exclusivity deals is like, it forced me to download Spotify and Apple music go. I just, cause I've been grandfathered in and I don't really think about it. I get a cheap deal. We just want it all. But like I have to download it now. And now that I've downloaded the app, I'm one step closer to 
[00:27:35] Germaine: [00:27:35] becoming a pain.
[00:27:37] Yeah, exactly. My client, 
[00:27:38] Hayden: [00:27:38] because you don't actually have to pay. Spotify to listen to podcasts. It's like part of their free version. You don't. 
[00:27:45] Germaine: [00:27:45] Yeah. I mean, it would be stupid because very few podcasts actually cost money to listen to. So you would just go to Stitcher or something if you wanted to just listen to podcasts.
[00:27:53] So they're giving it to you for free 
[00:27:56] Hayden: [00:27:56] Apple in terms of like the music [00:28:00] industry, which is I think way still and will continue to be way more lucrative than the podcasting industry, because that's so synonymous with music that I think that they. That's not the Avenue that they take to grow that side of their business.
[00:28:15] I think they're much more interested in, in working with artists like music audits directly to get exclusivity deals on that front to get albums released early on. But, you know, I will say it's like, I mean, I could be wrong. Podcasts could be. Yeah. I'm tech music in a while, but I just don't see that being the 
[00:28:37] Germaine: [00:28:37] case.
[00:28:37] Yeah. I mean, music is a much older form of entertainment and podcasting, I guess. Is it like radio hasn't died despite podcasting, I think sort of competing against that. So 
[00:28:48] Hayden: [00:28:48] there is an upper limit to it though. I think like, 
[00:28:51] Germaine: [00:28:51] as in a limit to how much market penetration, podcasting or listening to, 
[00:28:56] Hayden: [00:28:56] I mean, it's like.
[00:28:58] Joe Rogan is the, you know, not to [00:29:00] keep 
[00:29:01] Germaine: [00:29:01] well, he's the biggest part. He's 
[00:29:02] Hayden: [00:29:02] the biggest in the world. It's like he would generate a lot of money, like an undead, a lot of money, but like, you can pay until like Drake in terms of like, Drake's like music career would be subsidizing like 20 artists who you all love.
[00:29:17] Like, and you wouldn't even know him because he generates that much money for me. It's like Joe Rogan. It's like, 
[00:29:23] Germaine: [00:29:23] I mean $200 million in like a Drake sort of money or Kanye sort of money. Yeah. Isn't massive. 
[00:29:31] Hayden: [00:29:31] No, it's not 
[00:29:31] Germaine: [00:29:31] like it's big in podcasting and that 200 mill would have been over a year. 
[00:29:35] Hayden: [00:29:35] Yeah. I don't, I mean, don't quote me on this.
[00:29:38] It's about five years, I believe. It's second year. So like, yeah. I mean still a lot of money, but like 
[00:29:45] Germaine: [00:29:45] money and that's all we're talking down. It's just that in the grand scheme of things, especially when it comes to entertainment, which. Podcasting is. Yeah. And I would argue that almost anything is these days is entertainment at the end of the day.
[00:29:57] Yeah. It's not, it's not [00:30:00] crazy. 
[00:30:00] Hayden: [00:30:00] No. Um, no, definitely not. And like, but I think as like, as I said, it does, it's interesting that that's now the ceiling, you know, just in the same way that like, if LeBron James gets a contract like that now becomes the benchmark for, this is what the top, you know, Athlete gets paid.
[00:30:19] This is what the top boss gets paid, you know? And now, now we have a figure for that. It's really interesting to see where the other chips sort of fall in terms of like, if Joe Rogan is worth, you know, 20, $30 million a year, what does this show that pulls in 500,000? Like 
[00:30:38] Germaine: [00:30:38] yeah. What sort of adult dollar figure around that?
[00:30:41] I mean, podcasting. Almost shoots themselves in the foot because you can skip advertising. Um, 
[00:30:48] Hayden: [00:30:48] I mean, yes and no, I think you're right in the fact that it does stop you from doing that, but in the same way, like you can skip YouTube ads, 
[00:30:57] Germaine: [00:30:57] but you should like Google to watch [00:31:00] ads every once in a while as well. 
[00:31:02] Hayden: [00:31:02] It does, but I mean, you can get ad-blocker
[00:31:06] Germaine: [00:31:06] yeah. Yeah. True. I mean, I guess as a, as a afterthought for all that you should, revenue's been sort of on the downward sort of trend for creators. Um, but yeah, I think it, I think it does bring up sort of this interesting. Business case. Cause I looking at us and the podcast that you're listening to at the moment, this isn't a profitable, like if we were looking at this solely as a business, like expense and a return on your investment, um, one, it's very hard to tie a return on investment.
[00:31:42] I think, I think it's very, we can't point to like a single client who said, Oh yeah, I'll listen to your podcast. That's why, that's why I'm working with you. Yeah. Um, So, you know, looking at it, look at direct sort of attribution. I think it's not being, it's not profitable saying that that doesn't [00:32:00] mean that I personally, as the business owner don't value your efforts and value.
[00:32:05] Podcasting though. 
[00:32:06] Hayden: [00:32:06] And I think that's sort of what I wanted to bring up at the top of the show. It's podcasting in general there, just because I think of how much of a time investment there is. I mean, you can like listen to 20 music artists in your phone and the same time that you. Listen to one podcast. I mean, there's just not enough hours in the day to listen to every podcast you may or may not be interested in.
[00:32:27] And I think that's the result. A lot less people can do podcasting full time or create a podcast for their company. That's really like generating revenue. But in saying that I think it does have a lot of like intangible benefits. Oh, 
[00:32:39] Germaine: [00:32:39] for sure. I mean, one thing I've really enjoyed with it is just being able to reach out and talk to new people, understand new people from all over the world.
[00:32:48] You mentioned that we do it on zoom. That just literally means that geography or geographical, uh, locations don't matter. Um, which is just really awesome. 
[00:33:00] [00:33:00] Hayden: [00:33:00] But I think like, I think like, you know, speaking from your perspective as like a business sign off, like, I feel like a podcast while yeah. It is hard to judge the benefits that it's giving you directly in terms of like, you know, return on investment that you can like note down in, like yeah.
[00:33:16] Yeah. But yeah, like just quickly for like the people at home, like who might not know, like there are a whole heap of like SEO or benefits. Yeah. 
[00:33:24] Germaine: [00:33:24] I mean, if you're transcripting the podcast, um, for example, um, you use this Descript 
[00:33:29] Hayden: [00:33:29] yeah Descript we used Happyscribe for a little bit 
[00:33:32] Germaine: [00:33:32] and not so happy with them.
[00:33:34] Hayden: [00:33:34] No pun intended. No, but Descript was definitely like a step up and the script actually gives you some audio and video editing capabilities like in the app. So you can sort of kill two birds with one stone. 
[00:33:47] Germaine: [00:33:47] Saying that we also use audacity, which is completely free, completely free. 
[00:33:52] Hayden: [00:33:52] Yeah. And I'm pretty sure the Adobe suite, if you have, yes, he 
[00:33:55] Germaine: [00:33:55] has 
[00:33:56] Hayden: [00:33:56] Adobe audition.
[00:33:57] So there's an audio tool, again, really [00:34:00] cheap to do a lot of this stuff and it can have a lot of benefits. And if you're like a big brand that has, you know, a plugged in consumer base that you can sort of like launch a podcast off, it's really a good way to become sort of an authority in your industry and sort of be known.
[00:34:16] As like a, this is a trusted source of information. I mean, I was talking to my mate who basically works at a paralegal as a law. He eventually wants to like work with the law firm full time. And he's like, sort of been tasked with creating their podcast as well. So yes, I was talking to him about it and I was talking about like how weird it is that like law firms and even, you know, consulting companies are like starting their own podcast, but it does sort of make sense in the fact that.
[00:34:46] I mean, how many law firms besides like Maliganis Edwards Johnson. do you know?. 
[00:34:50] Germaine: [00:34:50] Which if your in Canberra, you would know their ads it's comedy. It's just TV. I mean, they really are in that 
[00:34:58] Hayden: [00:34:58] one. I think that's it 
[00:35:00] [00:35:00] Germaine: [00:35:00] for me, or bloomers. They do, they do funny ads as well. 
[00:35:05] Hayden: [00:35:05] Some of the best ads. They're like, that's what it takes for you to know a little firm.
[00:35:09] I mean, like, I hope to never know like a law firm, 
[00:35:12] Germaine: [00:35:12] because it's never good news if you need a law firm. 
[00:35:15] Hayden: [00:35:15] But like, if you start a podcast that sort of talks about the law industry in general, give like tips on how to handle this, how to handle 
[00:35:23] Germaine: [00:35:23] that. Just a simple stuff. 
[00:35:25] Hayden: [00:35:25] Yeah. You become like. And authority within that world, you instantly, your brand becomes more salient to the consumers.
[00:35:33] You 
[00:35:35] Germaine: [00:35:35] yeah. And it's, and it's a younger person sort of thing, right? Yeah. I'm podcasting, but, but older people can hop into it without any sort of high barrier to entry. Um, because good audio is good. Audio. People listen to music. People listen to radio all the time. So it, it really is a nice way to get into it.
[00:35:51] And it's low investment higher award. If you just continue that. You can transcribe the conversations, which is really good for [00:36:00] SEO because when he posted on your blog, put the trans transcription, um, that that's just an awesome way to get a whole lot of words that are irrelevance, you know, just coming up with sort of pointless words, um, that helps you focus in and target in on specific topics.
[00:36:15] And. Yeah, it just makes everything awesome. 
[00:36:17] Hayden: [00:36:17] Yeah. And from an advertising perspective, if you are person, who is looking to advertise on a podcast, obviously Germaine brought up, a big problem that people can skip your ads pretty easily. Um, but I think the counter argument to that is that if you're selling a very niche, like say you are selling a home security system, right?
[00:36:36] Like where do you really advertise that? Where are your consumers going? And to, you know, say these words like. If you listen to true comp podcast, every ad is like, do you want it easy to install a security system? And it's like, when do you want to send her the system more than once you're listening to like the golden state murder?
[00:36:54] Germaine: [00:36:54] If someone had just like got burgled. Yeah. I mean, you feel that that's a very good point. You can really niche down. Like if you [00:37:00] sell, I there's a lot of those, a retro small portable consoles 
[00:37:03] Hayden: [00:37:03] coming out. Yeah. 
[00:37:05] Germaine: [00:37:05] That this Nintendo, this I'm sure this retro and intender gaming podcasts that you would use as an example exists.
[00:37:12] We don't know the name of it, but I'm sure it has to exist, but what a way to, you know, advertise your product because your markets are ready for that. If you tell them you can use your copy, right. And play Pokemon again on the Gar, well, goo like that, that's just the best way to do it. If you're looking at Facebook, something like that.
[00:37:30] Good luck 
[00:37:31] Hayden: [00:37:31] and that sort of thing, like. I think people default to these platforms that have a really widespread, but have people who are just not interested in buying the stuff that you'll sell on. Like, and it'd become, so, numb to seeing like advertising it's sorta like, you know, 
[00:37:46] Germaine: [00:37:46] yeah. Yeah. I don't pick it up.
[00:37:48] Like I, when I watch, or, go through blog posts and stuff, or the internet I've missed advertising altogether, I just don't notice it anymore. So, um, yeah. I mean, on that note, we'll wrap [00:38:00] up this episode of the podcast. Yeah. Thanks for joining me, Hayden. Thanks everyone for listening. It's been like, like you said, 12 months, we look forward to seeing what we can do with this podcast and having better more guests for you, um, in the future, I think before we finish off one last thing I want to talk about my favorite episode.
[00:38:20] I don't know if you have one. Mine's been quite recent one with Jarrod, from Jarrod's tech. Yeah. Just cause I love technology. Uh, I'm a total geek inside and I love YouTube. I'm a avid YouTube consumer and an avid podcast consumer. So that's been my favorite episode. Um, we'll link it in the description. If you want to check it out.
[00:38:38] How about you Hayden? What's been your favorite. 
[00:38:41] Hayden: [00:38:41] It's a hard one, but I would have to say the episode we did with Pip. I don't want to say her last name. Yeah. So she always that one a day, we linked that one. She's basically a person who sort of like maneuvered her way into like the presenting, uh, music-host sort of industry, which is very hard to [00:39:00] get into if you've ever like, you know about it.
[00:39:03] Yeah. Cause again, like not to bring up another night, but like a, maybe he's trying to like, basically do that. And he said, it's like extremely hard. And he's sort of like, got everything riding on like an internship that he's doing. Right. So for free with hopes that it converted like your internship with like Spotify that he could like sort of finagle into something else.
[00:39:20] But like, it's just interesting to see like how. She talks about that space. Cause I feel like not all, there's not a lot of like actual like information about how to do get into it. Yeah. You know, so that was like an awesome episode and Pip's like real good on the, it was real good on the camera was real good.
[00:39:40] Like talking, 
[00:39:40] Germaine: [00:39:40] you can tell that she's got experience. 
[00:39:42] Hayden: [00:39:42] Yeah. And she was just super cool lady. So yeah, probably 
[00:39:46] Germaine: [00:39:46] lady. I'm not sure that people would like to 
[00:39:48] Hayden: [00:39:48] hear that super cool chick. 
[00:39:52] Germaine: [00:39:52] There you go. Awesome. That was very lame, but 
[00:39:56] Hayden: [00:39:56] we'll leave it at that. Thanks 
[00:39:57] Germaine: [00:39:57] listening guys. As always, [00:40:00] everything's going to be in the, in the description down below Apple.
[00:40:03] See you next episode. 
[00:40:06] Intro: [00:40:06] Thank you for listening 
[00:40:07] to the future tribe podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review on your podcast.