Ofsted Big Listen

In this episode, Mark Leech (Deputy Director, Communications) speaks with Wendy Ratcliff (HMI, Early Education), Dan Lambert (SHMI, Schools) and His Majesty's Chief Inspector, Sir Martyn Oliver, about Ofsted's Big Listen. 

Ofsted's Big Listen closes on 31st May and we want to hear from everyone we work with and work for. Take part here: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/ofsted-big-listen. 

 

Transcript:

Mark: Hello and welcome to another edition of Ofsted Talks. Actually, this episode, could be renamed Ofsted listens because we're going to be talking about our Big Listen, the huge consultation that we kicked off at the beginning of March. We're now recording this in early May. So there's still a few weeks left for people to give us their views. We want to hear from parents, we want to hear from all of the providers across the different sectors that we work with. So if you haven't given your views yet, please go to gov.uk/ofstedbiglisten. So today we're going to talk to a couple of colleagues who have been part of the Big Listen - they've been out and about meeting with the public, meeting with people in the sectors that we work with and hearing what people are saying. So we're joined by Wendy Ratcliff, who is one of our HMI. Wendy works in early education. And we're joined as well by Dan Lambert, who is a senior HMI for the East of England region at Ofsted so welcome Wendy and Dan. Wendy, I’ll start with you, what's been your take as you've been going out and about? Where have you been and what have you been hearing?

Wendy: So we've been out and about in early education, as we usually do. And we've been out on some of our curriculum roadshows at the moment, which are focusing in on the key messages from our best start in life research review. And so we've been speaking with early years practitioners, we've been speaking with managers, we've been speaking with those who provide early years in schools and childminders as well. So we've been hearing things around that fear factor of Ofsted. And we've also been hearing things around notice periods, childminders, for example, one of the things that makes them more anxious is the fact we phone them five days before their inspection and then they're not certain which day we're going to go. So actually, that makes that anxiety worse. And the other thing I guess, is nursery managers, we make that call around midday the day before the inspection. And again, thinking about is that the right time, our inspectors are really good at saying is this a good time to have that conversation, but actually calling a day nursery at lunchtime, the day before the inspection is due, is that the best time for us to be making that notification call? So there's some of the things that people are telling us that they'd like to put forward in the Big Listen.

Mark: That's really interesting, because we're getting straight into the really meaty issues, aren't we and we’re trying to capture as much from people through the consultation online. But I think it is important that people understand that as well as that we are out listening to people on the ground and we've also commissioned some external organisations, some independent organisations to do some further work with the sectors that we work with. And to do some further surveys and some focus groups to hear from different groups of people that perhaps it's a bit harder to reach. So it's really interesting the notice period thing, because there's a lot of talk about that in schools and people talk about whether we're giving enough notice to teachers and to school leaders that we're going to be in. We normally give them a call the day before. As you say it’s slightly different with childminders, it’s different, again with further education providers. Dan, are you hearing much about notice periods? What else are you picking up more in the school sector?

Dan: Yeah, I've had some really great meetings with big and small groups of head teachers, senior leaders, governors and staff in schools as well. And notice periods, it's something that I think lots of us struggle to put our finger on. I was a head teacher a while back, and I certainly had the phone call the day before. And I couldn't quite say whether a little bit more notice, or a little bit less notice would be right for me if I put my hand on my heart and think about that. The message from leaders is they really want to be in their schools when Ofsted inspect, they feel that that allows them to put their best foot forward. But they also don't want that extended period, where they think actually, this will only raise my anxiety if I have more time to think about that. Incidentally, a lot of my work is in the independent sector, where much of our work is carried out with no notice. And I think you'd be amazed just at how calm that is. And it's been fascinating discussing that with head teachers and school leaders who've acknowledged actually that may be a nicer way of doing things. But as I say, always with that, that opportunity to make sure that they're on site during the day.

Mark: I think you've both been talking, they're really about the sort of anxieties that build up around Ofsted. And obviously, a big part of the Big Listen is us sort of reflecting on what we can do to reduce that because, you know, we want to be going into schools, nurseries, colleges, we don't want to be winding those institutions up. We want to see them as they are and be able to judge them fairly. There's been a lot of talk about whether people can comment about our judgments, our gradings. There is a section of the Big Listen about reporting. People I think understand that the grading system is not something that we can wave a wand and change it's a part of a bigger government machinery. But are we hearing a lot around the way we report back to parents but also to the to the schools themselves, the institutions themselves?

Dan: Yeah, I've certainly found that governors that I've spoken to have said they really valued that external validation of the work that's happening in the school. They're committed to helping to improve their schools and governors up and down the land, trustees up and down the land are hugely selfless and giving with their time, but they also want the very best for children in their schools. The feedback that Ofsted give them is invaluable to what they do. And I've heard that, but they also worry about their head teachers, and they worry about the impact that inspection may have on the leadership team and the staff in the school. Lots of head teachers and school leaders have talked to us about the one-word judgments. And there were some really strong feelings on this particular subject. Lots and lots of colleagues in schools have told us this through the Big Listen. And as some have commented, there isn't a direct question about that, but you can tell us about that in the free text box in the survey, and there are several of them, but particularly the one at the end asking, is there anything else you'd like us to know. However, there needs to be a balance here, because there are some people that have said it helps them to understand how a school is performing without having to read an in depth report. So we need to consider all of that, of course, before we come to a conclusion.

Wendy: And of course, in early years, some of our providers have told us that actually, that one word judgement links to the funding that's available to them. So again, there's lots of views out there, and it'd be good to capture all of them. We've been doing a lot in early education to try and put straight some of the inspection misconceptions that are out there. Because ultimately, we're charged with finding out what it's like to be a child in this place, and actually then report that back to parents. So that parents have got that understanding of what it's like for their child when they're in their preschool with their childminder, or in their out of school provider. And, with some of those changes we have already made, we are hearing, for those who have had a recent inspection, they're saying that they are finding that our inspectors very much are taking those messages on board and taking account of wellbeing and treating people with courtesy respect and empathy.

Mark: That is really, really good to hear because that has been a big focus of work over the last few months. I think like everything, it takes an awfully long time sometimes to get these messages across and, and perhaps around the fear factor we've been talking about, it is about people seeing that, people seeing a change on the ground, perhaps but also getting to know over time about the changes that we've made, the changes that will come out of the Big Listen too. I mean another way obviously is bringing more people into Ofsted and some people who are listening might not be aware of just how many of our inspectors don't work for us full time, actually are out there running schools, running nurseries, they come and give us some of their time to take part in inspections. Have you been meeting with some of our, we call them Ofsted inspectors, so that the staff that come in temporarily?

Wendy: Yeah, we are Mark actually we are just in the throes of doing our conferences. We have two conferences a year for our early years workforce and I was in Cobham in Surrey and was sitting with a group of our Ofsted inspectors. And it was a really positive day. And there was lots of opportunity for them to talk about some of those issues that they're facing when they're back in their settings. But also some of those messages and changes we've made, we've been able to cover some of those off in our conferences.

Dan: I was an Ofsted inspector before I was one of His Majesty's inspectors. I think our professional colleagues, those colleagues that come out of their setting for that short time to help to lead and team our inspection work provide that invaluable insight to the challenges on the ground. I spend the majority of my time in schools so I don't think that I'm too far removed from that reality. But I'm also not doing that day job anymore. And so hearing the views of those colleagues, it is really, really important. And they bring a unique perspective as well because they see it from both sides. Because for part of their week, they are sat to doing the day job dealing with the realities, the challenges and the joys that that brings. But then for a few days a week or a month they’ll be working with us and understanding the complexity of getting that work right. They bring a huge amount of knowledge, a huge amount of credibility and understanding to our workforce and they're absolutely invaluable.

Mark: That's great. Thank you very much. And I'm pleased to say that listening into all of this has been the man whose brainchild the Big Listen was – His Majesty's Chief Inspector, the boss of Ofsted, Sir Martyn Oliver. Martyn, what's your reflection, both on what Wendy and Dan have had to say, but also the Big Listen itself? I know you've been doing a tremendous number of meetings with all sorts of different organisations. What have you learned?

Martyn: Well, thank you, Mark. And thanks, Dan and Wendy. It's fascinating to hear what people have said to you so far. And you know, our inspections have come under a lot of scrutiny in the last year and my priority was to make sure that we've been able to review and to make changes about the way that we work and as Wendy was saying, our work should be carried out with professionalism, courtesy, empathy and respect. Because we really want to improve as an organisation. We want to make sure that we listen to everyone that we work with, and everyone that we work for, particularly listening to children and to parents. And yesterday, I had the pleasure of meeting 10, inspirational young men in a youth offending institution and listening to what they have to say. And that was one of the groups that was carried out not just by the survey that we've got on the go right now that we launched in March, and it runs until the end of May. So there's still an opportunity for the listeners to this podcast to take part in our survey, just go to gov.uk/ofstedbiglisten to take part - we want to hear from all of your views. But on top of that, we've actually got these two consultations that are put in place from from groups. And one of these groups yesterday were conducting the survey with these 10 young men in this youth offending institution. And we were finding out about what's it like when we inspect in their prison education, what was it like when they were in school before they ended up into the youth offending institution, what's it like when they were in care, many of them were, and how does that affect our work. And this is why it's such an important thing that we hear every voice. And I've also been really clear in saying, Mark, that nothing's off the table. So, we want to hear every voice because nothing is off the table. And after May, we're going to analyse all of the feedback from the survey, and then from the groups who are coming out all these consultations on our behalf to get to these more vulnerable and marginalised sectors, and make sure that we hear everything they've got to say, and then we're going to present it in the beginning of the next academic year, as our response to this exercise. I think it's a great opportunity. So it's not just my views, but it's the views of the entire sector, something like 97,000 institutions that we inspect and regulate, because a lot of people think about Ofsted, and they think about the schools, the 22,000 schools. But as Wendy is a perfect example. There are some 67,000 and growing number of early years providers out there. So we have a wide remit, and we want to hear from everyone.

Mark: Thanks, Martyn. And for people out there who haven't looked at the survey yet, could you just tell them what to expect when they go to the website to fill it in?

Martyn: Yeah, so we've got two particular surveys, one for adults and one for children. And when you go on to the survey, for example, as an adult, you can see that you can select any of the aspects of the work that we do. And so we asked four big themed questions. But alongside the questions that we've set out, every single one of them has a free text box, I think there was something like 30 free text boxes. So if you don't think we're asking the right question and you want to tell us something else, then please feel free to write into that free text box what you think because we really are listening.

Mark: That is important. We hear comments from people and we know people have said well you haven't asked a question about grading or you haven't spoken about a particular aspect of work in further education or whatever it might be. Those free text boxes are going to be looked at and analysed and we will be capturing those thoughts so I think that's really important point. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Martyn. Thank you Dan, thank you Wendy for taking part. It just remains for me to say again if you haven't had your opportunity to have your say through the Big Listen, please do fill in the survey. It is open until the end of May at gov.uk/ofstedbiglisten. As we are recording this, so still with a couple of weeks left, we are over 16,000 responses making it the biggest consultation that Ofsted’s ever run and more than 3,500 of those have come from children which is absolutely fantastic. So do fill it in yourself and if you have a child who wants to express a view about how we inspect their school or their college, please do ask them to complete the survey as well - special survey for children which is a little bit easier to navigate. Thank you all for listening. I hope you will join us again on the next Ofsted Talks. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.