Hassan Murad, Intuitive

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Countless companies have tried sticking a screen above things in public spaces, thinking - or more appropriately hoping - that the scenario and dynamics were something that would interest brand advertisers. I won't say it never worked, but there's a lot of roadkill.

A company out of Vancouver, on Canada's west coast, is going at this notion - but in a very different way.

Intuitive puts 43-inch displays just to the rear of trash stations in busy public and private spaces. But instead of just running booked ad campaigns, the main purpose of the screens and supporting AI-driven tech is to change consumer behaviors. A computer vision camera uses AI-based pattern detection to look at the trash someone is about to drop into receptacles, and tells them what goes where. We've probably all had a last sip of a coffee-to-go, stopped to drop ti in the trash and recycling station, and then stood there wondering which bins to drop things in.

The company, whose founders have roots in robotics, had quite a bit of success selling ready-to-go systems to organizations. on the basis that teaching consumers to correctly sort their trash would save a lot of back-end labor and time. But customers were buying one or two systems for big venues, because that's what budgets would allow. Even though 10 or 20 were needed.

Based on a lot of real-world experience and enthusiasm from brands, Intuitive has now pivoted to a more traditional place-based digital media model. The business has blown up, with 10s of 1,000s of installs under contract, including a big partnership with Pepsico.

I had a great chat with co-founder and CEO Hassan Murad, who calls himself the company's chief trash talker.

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TRANSCRIPT

Hassan, thank you for coming on my podcast. I was at Digital Signage Experience a few weeks ago and wandered around the trade show floor. It wasn't all that big or crowded with stands, but I saw the stand for your company and kind of went right on by because I have this attitude based on years of seeing companies trying to put advertising screens atop damn near anything. 

But I was compelled by a business friend to have another look and stop and talk with you guys. It was actually very interesting what you're up to. So can you explain what Intuitive does and how it got started?

Hassan Murad: For sure. And again, Dave, thank you for having us. I'm Hassan Murad, the co-founder, CEO, and chief trash talker here at Intuitive. What Intuitive started out as - I'll take you back to myself and Vivek Vyas, who's the other co-founder of Intuitive. Both of us grew up in India and Pakistan, were born there and our families at different points immigrated to Dubai. Then we met when we were doing robotics here in Canada, in Vancouver.

Our whole background was in robotics and AI. As we were starting to step foot in the real world, we had gained experiences working on drones to detect wildfires or for impact applications, submarines to do amazing things in an autonomous way, self-driving cars down at Tesla. Previously, I was proud to share working alongside Elon, but now I'm very careful.

Yeah, that's not necessarily an association you want anymore.

Hassan Murad: You have to be careful for sure. I describe him as the smartest person you can ever experience working for or be with, and a pioneer of this world. And at the same time, he's the dumbest person you could ever think of. But I hope this doesn't make it to him or else he will start bashing us as well.

I think he has a list to go through first before he finds us.

Hassan Murad: I hope so. The way that he fires off his tweets or whatever he calls it at X is just insane.

Anyways, back to the point. We’re both working on robotics applications and being flat on the walls in different zero to one moments where industries were being completely revolutionized by AI and we asked ourselves the question that for the next couple of years, if we are going to jump in and work on something, what is the problem that we care about solving? One thing we were really driven to think of solutions to was the waste problem. The stat that we had read at that point that was the game changer for us was that 98% of whatever we generate ends up in landfills, oceans, rivers, open dumps, and does not get recycled or composted. That basically says one percent was composted and one percent was recycled. That made us pause and say, okay, we've got to apply our solutions or backgrounds to something that's wrecking the world. 

Anybody that has watched WALL-E knows how the end happens, right? What happens to Earth? That's kind of how we got started. We were developing a solution that I'm happy to go through, if it makes sense, but it was a very robotics-based solution and then we pivoted towards education. And what that means is that instead of sorting it for people, we started developing a way to nudge and change behavior so that people could recycle better and cause less contamination because one of the big things we realized was there's no sensor for waste or materials in the whole space and people are walking up and they don't realize that the three seconds they take to throw something out actually is a very important point in their journey. If they make the right decision and if we help the facility realize that value, we have a very high chance of getting that material to the right area.

So what I was mentioning is rather than having a robotics-based approach and solving it for people, like handing them the fish, we taught people how to fish using AI combined with a digital screen to make it really smart and use audio visuals so that we nudge and change an individual's behavior.

So the nut of this is that, and I suspect anybody listening has had this happen to them where they've been walking along with a cup of coffee with a plastic lid on it and a cardboard cup, and they're going to put it in a trash and they'll see three slots and they'll be looking at the three of them going, okay, “which one do I put this in?” And you just take a wild stab at it and put it in one that seems to make sense or somebody else has put something similar in that one. 

Your whole thing is using computer vision to guide people to, based on what you're showing me in front of the camera, it ought to go in this one. Is that an accurate way of describing it?

Hassan Murad: Exactly. So we make that entire process - the individual walking up has an item or multiple items that consists of multiple materials, like that coffee cup example you gave. There's the cup that is made of paper, but it's plastic lined. Depending on municipalities, it could belong in trash or paper streams if they're accepting it or recycling. Then you've got the cardboard sleeve, and then you've got that lid and sometimes you've got liquid inside. So there's four different materials that the consumer has either no time, incentive, or reason to be putting all these pieces together to sort the item out.

Most of the time what happens is people just take a guess or are not even paying attention. What we change is that behavior. We have introduced Oscar sort, which is the core technology that you could put behind any recycling bin - busy bins in malls, airports, universities, stadiums. You put it behind that bin and it starts making that bin a lot more powerful. As you're approaching that bin next time, it starts even looking at you two or three feet out and it starts nudging you by visualizing how you could sort that item out. It tries to make that decision very intuitively and it attaches an incentive to it. So it's now this digital screen that actually rewards you for sorting correctly. And if you sort it incorrectly, well, Oscar could get grouchy. This whole gamification in a simple decision that was so pivotal for the facility, but also downstream, is where we've brought fun engagement and really changed the whole landscape.

So the business model on this is what?

Hassan Murad: Traditionally, when you look at an airport, a mall, a university, a corporate campus, everybody pays for a garbage bin and garbage bins have a recurring cost, because you have to make sure they're being serviced and not overflowing. In different areas, you have sorting requirements downstream. So if people don't sort, they'll take it downstairs to potentially sort as well. When you look in San Francisco, many stadiums we've chatted with have 10-15 physical people at the back sorting all the bins out and that is where Oscar has been approved as the technology - you don't need people at the back end to sort anymore because Oscar can help people do that. That was our starting niche. We started by focusing on Airports that have this bottleneck problem and we've been providing different amounts of Oscar sorts to these areas to help start their journey.

As you see this scale we're trying to reach, we're trying to make a dent in the universe in terms of the whole waste world. It's not going to make an impact when out of 700 bins or 200 bins in a stadium, we just provide 5 or 10 bins. That is where we have accelerated the business model towards a property becoming a partner of ours and we partner with them so that we provide Oscar Sorts to their facility and we utilize brands that are already on the Oscar screen.

So people are paying to be on the screen and they're the brand that wants to say hi to Dave that is walking up. So that coffee cup you're talking about is branded rather than generic. The chips bag, the bottle, the can. You can start seeing how brands want to be the brand in front of an individual as they're walking up, since we've created this new type of experience.

We've flipped the model around. We call it the Oscar Media and Materials Exchange - in short, it's OMX. That basically allows any busy property, whether it's in New York or Toronto or LA or anywhere, a busy property like a mall, university, airport, stadium, can put Oscars in, they can raise their hand to put Oscars in and we have sponsors and partners that will fund those units. So it has flipped this model so that we can get hundreds and actually make a material impact.

When I was at DSC, if my memory is correct, which is always questionable, I think you had something in excess of a thousand units in the field and each of those units was in the range of $15k capital cost to put in. 

I was impressed that you're out to a thousand and impressed that venues would spend $15k on this. Is that something you still do or is it just completely flipped around where you will put it in at no cost and recover your money from the brands?

Hassan Murad: We have flipped the model and OMX is our primary focus. We've proven the technology at the most leading airports, universities, stadiums, etc. And that's been an amazing journey - proving that people would pay, that it helps the operations of the facility, also that brands are fighting to be on the screen.

An example I can mention is when people walk up - and you probably saw this at DSC - we're seeing people spend a lot of time at the bins. Traditionally, nobody would get zero seconds at the bin - they toss it in as they're moving. What we're seeing is about ten seconds of engagement when somebody is trying to sort an item because they're like, what is this thing doing? And usually when they throw their item - I love asking this question - what do you think is the most shown item to an Oscar globally?

It'd be between soda tins and coffee cups, I would imagine.

Hassan Murad: Those are definitely the top five categories. But the most shown item, and this is where we saw that this is actually an engagement tool is that the most show item we started seeing was mobile phones. The behavior, once we started auditing and going to sites and doing behavioral user studies, is that people walk up, throw their item, and they're like, all right, this thing is telling me how to sort. What's the next thing I can show or try to trick it?

That's essentially where everybody has a mobile phone. So they take it out of their pocket or show the phone to see what Oscar does. We quickly iterated in the early days to add in a nudge or an Easter egg that essentially tells you, "Hey, put that back in your pocket."

I thought it was drug dealers with burner phones.

Hassan Murad: No, not thinking in that way at all. Dave, you’re watching too much Narcos.

Yeah, probably.

Hassan Murad: But essentially, we started seeing people show a lot of their phones again, not throw, show a lot of their phones. And then instantly, when we inserted the Easter egg, you saw that people are bringing their loved ones to be like, look, when I show my phone, it says, “Put that back in your pocket” and that became an Instagram instant hit, on Tik TOK and other areas as well. 

That really was the beginning of us understanding that this is an engagement tool. We have what we call the “bin-tersection moment”, right? People are going about their day and they're at this intersection that is like white space right now, nobody even notices it and we can actually disrupt and add value to their day by dropping something that is interesting to them. That was that whole journey and so now we see anywhere from one to two minutes of time being spent at the Oscar bin and usually people go, “What? How?” and there are these nudges that I just described to you. You can show items. But we also introduced something that we saw to be very popular and tested out in stadiums, called Trivia. 

And essentially what trivia is, you do a thumbs up to say yes, the question that you've asked me is correct, or a thumbs down to say it's wrong. And it's quizzing you on things. So if you're at a stadium at TD Garden, it's asking you about the Celtics. It's asking you about Carrie Underwood if she's performing at the back or Taylor Swift or whatever's happening. It's bringing up the relevant questions to connect with you with why you are there.

In terms of how this all plays out, you've got the garbage bins, obviously, you've got a screen in behind it. Is there a typical size? 

Hassan Murad: No, we retrofit any of their material collection systems, right? So they might have trash, recycling, compost, batteries, and collection bins. It could be textile, it could be beauty products, it could be anything that they're collecting at the property. 

They might be different sizes and configurations and everything else? You’ve got to figure it out case by case almost? 

Hassan Murad: No, we've got a standard 43 inch that we just provide, and if it's something that's wider, then we can provide two. So it’s modular, it latches on, it's a never ending waste bin. 

Do you ruggedize the thing? 

Hassan Murad: Yes, exactly. So it's obviously in airports and stadiums and other areas and it's built with aluminum and we've got casings, wherever people opt for that. 

Because at a Sox game, somebody's going to take that can and try to use the screen as a backboard…?

Hassan Murad: The funny thing is actually, Dave, we see little to no vandalism to the Oscar other than when construction is happening at that site. So that's good. 

Do you have a camera up above the display that's looking at, I assume, chest height of a typical human and doing pattern detection and looking for is that a can, is that a bag, is that a phone or whatever it may be, right? 

Hassan Murad: Yeah, exactly. It's pointing straight towards the bins where, and when anybody walks up to the Oscar, it blurs and destroys any information above the waist and so it just focuses on materials, waste, gestures, for example, if they're trying to play around with it, any items the site wants us to train for, to make it a fun experience. 

How do you know that it's anonymous, so to speak?  Is there feedback on the screen that shows that your face is blurred out? 

Hassan Murad: Exactly. So it's right then and there that it just shows people what's happening in the back end and I think that's very powerful to be doing. 

The creepiest thing is when you see other people put in cameras and they don't share details around what's exactly happening in the back end and that's something that's very different here. We work with governments of the world. We work with universities, schools, and so it's very important to have people understand what's happening. 

Like you just said, every Oscar right in the middle has the view so people can understand what's going on, but also there's a QR code right next to it so that they can understand, all right, what exactly is happening? What do you do with waste and materials? What are you trying to do here? And that's very important. 

What's the incentive for a venue, like an NHL arena, to install these units? Do they receive a share of the brand marketing revenue, or that comes back to you and their benefit is simply getting it for free while improving waste diversion and sorting?

Hassan Murad: It's a combination of both. You know how expensive it was to get an Oscar, that primarily is the biggest driver to a lot of people. If they wanted hundreds, they couldn't get that approval. They could get five or four units in, and this is now helping them to put this in at little to no cost from a property side and then it is added value towards sponsorships and advertising and activations which is a whole different team that is like, holy cow, there is a very customized experience. These are AI powered digital screens that drive impact, get two minutes of people's time that they're giving away and I have this available to me so that I can actually have a sponsor or have added value to this site. 

 

So could imagine adding a million plus dollars worth of value to your site if you just placed Oscar sorts across your bins. It increases the value of the property, but really the main reason people put it in is that this $15,000 thing is now being funded for them. It is going to help their operations. They're going to audit and understand what is going through their bin so they can improve their procurement and supply chain and then they actually understand if people are sorting better or not, so they have less cost downstream.

 

Those three things combined are very expensive to do because you have to hire consultants and do audits and dig through trash and we're making it very intuitive and easy using this OMX business model. Any property can apply. The main thing is people have to be visiting that property and obviously, you understand the digital out-of-home space is that the value of the property is if people are visiting and people and brands want to get in front and center over there that’s through the Oscar sort.

 

Going from a business model where you were selling into these kinds of environments and they were spending the capital to put them in and as you said, it's limiting what they can do. If you flip it around and you go to, let's say SoFi stadium in LA, where they want to have, I don't know, 120 of them, you get that deal and you're probably ringing the sales bell and everything else all excited and then somebody has to run the numbers and go, that's a big capital nut to do all that. 

It's a big change to go from selling them to having to deploy at scale. So how did you work out the capital and finance side of that? 

Hassan Murad: Yeah, and I think the right number for the site only pops up when we do an analysis of the site, right? They might have 150 bins but the most impactful ones are the cross section of that: do all of these bins get materials thrown out? And materials thrown out means people walk up there and we only focus on the busiest of bins, right? Because if you want to make an impact on the waste stream side, you've got to make sure people are actually accessing that. Accessing that means that you're getting the eyeballs and impressions. The powerful thing about this is that it scales and it focuses on the busiest of the bins. That's something we work with the property on. 

In terms of how the numbers are crunched and how we help the property. I think that's been something that has been quite straightforward to people as they look at this like they're running ads in different form factors across the stadium on screens on the jumbotrons and stuff like that and then they look at the Oscar and they're like, “All right, it welcomes me and when I'm not using it it is essentially playing curated content, which are traditional digital out of home ads, and then when I walk towards it, it essentially says “Hi” which could be a branded way, or it could be how the property wants us to. So it understands when somebody is close to it, so it's very measured, and then essentially, what are they doing? Are they starting to play the trivia? And after you answer the trivia, that might be AMEX powered, where American Express is giving you, if you've answered the questions correctly and you're the lucky winner, a trip to Hawaii. 

And that's the beauty of it. People are connecting and giving away different things through this medium where they know it is being measured rather than throwing in a QR code and on some screen and it's just not effective.

When you made this pivot, what's your deployed footprint now then? When I was talking back in December, it was around a thousand.

 

Hassan Murad: I can't share exact numbers, but now we're talking about tens of thousands and we'll be talking about it soon publicly. In terms of numbers and scale, it just has rapidly blown up.

 

Are these tens of thousands deployed or under contract today?

 

Hassan Murad: Under contract today.

 

The other question I had, because when you started off, you're talking about robotics and AI and everything else. Those are very engineering-centric kinds of pursuits and now you find yourself in the digital out-of-home media business, at least in an adjacent way. 

 

Those are very different kinds of meetings and very different kinds of people who speak their own language. How are you navigating that?

 

Hassan Murad: I think this is just the nature of everybody at Intuitive is that we rewire our brains almost every year. When you're married to the problem and not the solution, you almost have to let go of what you know and what you think is right and be very unbiased and just be heads down to what is the most scalable way. 

Just to mention this as well, when we were starting off, a lot of people were like, "All right, well, you could use advertisements to scale these units." At that point, the fundamentals of the Oscar Sort were improving - whether people would walk up to it, whether people would prefer this bin over another bin. There was this Hawthorne effect that was coming into play that a camera is helping you and is that helpful towards Oscar or against it? There were a lot of variables right at the start that we had to prove. We had to make sure that people would actually pay for the device. And not even the first year, but now we have customers that are paying in their fifth and sixth year. That was very powerful to see and prove.

Now is that perfect time where we've engaged these sponsors that we're talking about. Like our partnership with Pepsi, for example, that was publicly announced a couple months ago. They want to target all their key properties that they want to be going at, key malls, stadiums, universities, airports. It just tells you that brands want to take over the narrative and really make sure that they don't want all these middle layers to communicate to the consumer about recycling or material capture, about anything. If we can get straight away to them, that's what's amazing to see and we're doing that with other brands as well. 

That mobile phone example I gave you, a major mobile phone provider or telco saw that and the phone popped up. They were like, "Well, can we get exclusivity on this?" That’s the thing. It doesn't have to be a CPG or a materials-focused company to be advertising or sponsoring the Oscars. There are different brand moments. This is the way if you're doing anything sustainability, this is the channel to talk about what is the end of life. That’s the unique thing about it.

Of course, anybody can play standard ads and we have all the measured metrics versus a simple dumb screen out there because we have the sensor measuring interactions, engagements, passerby, things like that. So that's actually measurable rather than getting some data from some source.

I mean, I've been at this for 25 years and I've seen countless digital out-of-home efforts. 

We've got phone charging stations, we've got trash bins, we've got ATM toppers, we've got this and that and almost every one of them has not worked out because they were sold purely on the basis of an opportunity to see and here was an available space where they could stick these into a store or other environment, but there wasn't any other thinking beyond that. You have some connective tissue to that idea but it’s also very different, as you said.

Hassan Murad: That's where I think you can look at our history as well. It is not that we started building an advertising network right off the bat, but it was just really making sure people find value, create items that add value to properties that actually solve the massive problem and it is a self-sustaining business by itself and then we're seeing people accelerate to hundreds and thousands of units by itself because they want to get in front of people's attention and get their impressions. 

So merging these two things is now the accelerant to creating OMX, which is essentially the first climate focused or materials focused digital out-of-home network that we're building.

All right, that was very interesting. Thanks for spending some time with me.

Hassan Murad: Yeah, of course, Dave. Thanks for having us.