Here in the UK we have had the Church of England announce they will bless same-sex unions while over in the US the so called 'Asbury Revival' has been making headlines. To understand these two diametric concepts of revival and woke-ism we asked Fr Calvin Robinson to join us. Calvin speaks out strongly on how the Church is England is losing its message of Christ as it embraces 'new' values and concepts of the world. He has also been keeping a keen eye on the unusual events at the church in...
Here in the UK we have had the Church of England announce they will bless same-sex unions while over in the US the so called 'Asbury Revival' has been making headlines.
To understand these two diametric concepts of revival and woke-ism we asked Fr Calvin Robinson to join us.
Calvin speaks out strongly on how the Church is England is losing its message of Christ as it embraces 'new' values and concepts of the world.
He has also been keeping a keen eye on the unusual events at the church in Asbury University in Kentucky, where a service of worship just went on and on.
Can the Church of England return to truth and is what is happening in Asbury the beginning of a renewal in Christendom?
The Reverend Calvin Robinson is a popular British political advisor, presenter and commentator.
Fr Robinson is Minister-in-Charge of Christ Church in London and has been published widely in the media, including GB News, Talk radio, the Guardian, the Daily Telegraph, Daily Mail, the Spectator, and the Daily Express among others.
He is a former assistant principal and has consulted for the Department for Education, supporting school leaders across the South East.
Born and bred in the East Midlands, England, Calvin is on a crusade to reclaim our country from the woke using truth and common sense while standing up for family, conservative, Christian and British values.
Catch Calvin every Sunday at 3pm for the 'Common Sense Crusade' on GB News.
Follow and support Calvin....
GETTR: https://gettr.com/user/calvinrobinson
Twitter: https://twitter.com/calvinrobinson?s=20&t=46rqU2zEtSYZDNs2huAI7A
Telegram: https://t.me/calvinrobinson
Substack: https://calvinrobinson.substack.com/
Website: https://www.calvinrobinson.com/
Interview recorded 13.3.23
*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.
Check out his art https://theboschfawstinstore.blogspot.com/ and follow him on GETTR https://gettr.com/user/BoschFawstin
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[0:22] Hello, Hearts of Oak. Thank you for joining us on another interview coming up with Calvin Robinson.
We've had on numerous times before, and we're looking at the state of the church, where the church fit into a 21st century society. We go through a number of the issues which Calvin has spoken about regularly on GB News and on his social media platforms. The whole issue of marriage and the Church of England recognizing LGBT unions, whatever alphabet mix you want, it is now recognized and blessed, although they don't actually carry out a ceremony, so it seems to be a fudge on the issue. So we discuss that and some of the other issues. I know Calvin has talked a lot about the buffer zones and the prayer being illegal outside abortion centres. And then we look at, actually looking ahead, why a revived church, a church which is on fire, a church which is speaking truth, why that is important for, if you're not a Christian, actually for all society, not just Christians, because that has a positive effect on society, speaking truth and bringing,
[1:31] looking at issues of right and wrong, I guess, in a time where there's a lot of confusion about what actually is right, what actually is wrong. And the church, I think, can be a moral guidance, a framework once again for our society. And I think many of us would see that there is a place to be had, even if we are not regular churchgoers or don't call ourselves Christians. There is a positive impact and element to our society from that. So I know you'll enjoy Calvin, as much as I enjoyed chatting with them.
[2:05] Calvin Robinson, Father Calvin Robinson. It is wonderful to have you back with us.
Thank you so much for your time once again.
Anytime Peter, how are you?
Absolutely wonderful. All the better for seeing you and hopefully you'll shed some light on a lot of the chaos has been happening, but we'll get into that.
@CalvinRobinson, obviously, is your handle across all platforms.
People can also sign up to your sub-stack and get your regular e-mails giving your thoughts.
Of course, Calvin can be found every Sunday on GB News at 3pm.
Or you can see him in the flesh at his church in the morning.
So you can get him twice in the day. Your church isn't live streamed as yet, Calvin, no?
No, it's rooted in place. People have got to be there.
I do like that. Personal contact is good.
Don't go down that, because then people just stay at home. So stick with the one-on-one contact.
Calvin, initially when we had talked a couple weeks ago, we wanted to look at what was happening, I guess, termed as the Asbury Revival over in the States and talk about, I guess, renewal in general.
[3:15] But maybe before that we could go back and start with maybe where the Church is at in the UK.
And one thing which certainly has struck out with me was what happened back in February.
The Guardian's headline. We'll use the Guardian because that's, I think, what the Church of England like to support and promote, and are more worried about column inches in the Guardian. But anyway, it's the Church of England votes in favour of blessing for same-sex unions. Passing of motion at General Synod represents profound shift in Church's stance on homosexuality. Do you want to give us your thoughts on, kind of, that event and that quite a large departure from traditional Church of England Anglican teaching.
Yeah, well, the Church is saying it's not a departure in teaching.
They've said they're not changing doctrine, which is fluffy to say the least because we in the
[4:13] Church of England tend to believe lex horrende, lex credendi, like you are what you believe, you practice what you believe and you believe what you practice. And so if the Church of England is essentially saying that you can bless same-sex unions, some of which will be sexual in nature, the Church of England is now saying you can bless sin, which is an oxymoron, you can't ask God to bless something he has said is sinful. But at Synod it was voted in favour with a majority, that the Church of England can now, priests within the Church of England can now bless couples that come to them that may be in a civil partnership or may be in a secular gay marriage and those individuals within that relationship can now be blessed. So basically people will go to the registry office, they'll get their same-sex marriage under law and then they'll go to church and have that marriage blessed. That is wrong. It is not in line with Christian teaching. It's
[5:10] causing the Church of England to enter apostasy essentially because these bishops are heretics, and it's a problem for even the very good sound priests in the Church of England who do want to remain orthodox because we are, as Anglicans, we're an apostolic faith so we believe that each congregation serves a bishop and each, well the bishop serves each congregation, so you can't separate one from the other. You can't say well I'll be a good priest in my little parish because that's congregationalism. That means you're not respecting obedience to your bishop and not seeing him as your servant leader. So if the bishop is a heretic, it makes you a heretic. That's the problem people are facing. So many parishes are going to have to consider now do they want to leave the Church of England because the Church of England has already left them.
And we'll get into that schism in a little bit but I mean marriage has...
always been, traditionally, been a lifelong union between one man and one woman.
And it does seem, I know, I know, Calvin I'm only following you, so that's bad.
[6:19] I've seen your show, Calvin, much worse. But how can they say that's not a change? Because if the church is saying basically we're not actually carrying out a ceremony between two men or two women but we will still bless it. There isn't much, it seems to be just semantics really.
It is semantics. That is exactly the right word for it. They think they're being clever because they're trying to please everybody. You know you can't please everybody because what you end up doing is upsetting everybody. But worse than that you can't compromise on the truth.
And the truth sometimes is black and white. Most things in life are quite nuanced but the truth, isn't always, because we believe as Christians that the truth is universal and Jesus Christ is the truth himself, right? It's not this case of what we see in modernity where everyone has their own perspective and everyone owns their individual truth. That doesn't play out in Christianity. So what the Church is doing is saying, well societal norms have changed, they've adjusted over time and the world around us has become liberal progressive and the faith is rooted in time and place and is very static and traditionalist and
[7:33] old-fashioned, how do we marry the two? Well, we can't institute gay marriages because that's an oxymoron, but what about if we bless same-sex marriages that have been done elsewhere? That's good compromise, right? And of course it's all misguided. It might be well-intentioned, might not be, but it's just impossible. It's an impossibility.
Because up to this point, Church's teaching would would have been that there are areas of sin.
You can read your Bible and you can make whole lists of them.
[8:05] I've just been sitting in a series with Jay John going through the 10 commandments and those are a list of rules which are for our own good really for society.
But the church seems to have kind of completely abandoned that.
And I know internally the church has had this the hierarchy, I guess, this struggle of where they go on this issue, and I guess that maybe Justin Welby and others would have liked to kick this even further into the long grass. So I'm wondering what kind of pushed them to actually make a decision, because often the church of England are very good at not actually making decisions.
Yeah, they're really good at fluff, you know, Anglican fudge they call it, but this had to happen because the living in love and faith process is what they called it over the last six or seven years they've been discussing how to be more inclusive to the LGBTQ plus IAA plus plus plus community and just that just that sentence alone is problematic because the church of course is inclusive it's you know the church is welcoming to everyone because we are all sinners and they keep forgetting this that well how can we be more welcoming to this particular community and it doesn't make sense like that it's a false premise. They need to focus on talking about sin more and you're right the commandments are rules by which we should be living our lives. The
[9:32] Commandments are set down by God as any father would to his children to say this is how, these are the boundaries, you may play within these boundaries, if you leave these boundaries you will get hurt. That is what sin is, it's separation of us from God, and that's hurtful for us as well as for God right? So we, should be trying not to do that, we should be trying not to sin. But we don't talk about sin because it's seen as derogatory. Every time I bring it up on my own, well I won't talk about specifics, but whenever we talk about sin people say silly things like,
you can't call that sin. It's legal. It's like, what? That sentence again doesn't make any sense.
By saying it's a sin isn't me saying it should be illegal or it shouldn't be legal. It's me saying that it's something that is harmful for us and we should avoid it if possible. But we are all sinners because we are fallen individuals and we should acknowledge that we all do sin. And that is that's not okay but we can repent and we can change our ways. But people these days don't want to repent and they don't want to change their ways, they want to live in sin.
It is interesting that people pick and choose how sin or legality work because you look back at things which are, were illegal, you look back at slavery and we see that as abhorrent and yet it was accepted legally. So it's interesting how often people pick and choose what is accepted or not accepted.
[10:56] That's a very good point. I'm going to use that one in the future, actually.
That's a very good point. Because it's so annoying when people say, you can't say that homosexual marriage is a sin, or that homosexual sex is a sin.
First of all, I'm not saying anything about homosexuals in particular.
Usually I'm talking about fornication. I'm labelling the sin.
I'm using the name of the sin. It's sex outside of marriage, which is sinful.
[11:15] And that is the same for heterosexuals as it is for homosexuals.
But they really get hung up on that word sin.
So we need to talk about it more so that people understand it and realise that it's not us judging other people, it's not us pointing a finger that way, it's us doing this and saying yes we are sinners too, we're all sinners, let's help each other sin less.
I guess a conversation the church doesn't really have is the whole issue of the stability that a lifelong marriage between a man and woman brings to not only to small areas of culture but to society in general.
To me it would be, if they're looking for popularity I guess, it is an open goal to talk about the benefits that a male and female bring to that lifelong and then in regards to raising children and that structure and the benefit to society if not, to me that would be a open goal if the church wants to kind of be more political I guess with the public and engage with them and that would be a good policy.
Well it's right there, so it doesn't matter which church we're talking about.
If we're talking about the Church of England it's in the Book of Common Prayer, if we're talking about the Catholic faith it's in the Catechism of the Catholic faith, in that marriage is between one man and one woman, it's heterosexual and monogamous for the reasons of procreation, for the begetting of children, so that God can bless you with offspring.
[12:44] That is a good thing. For the purposes of fornication without sin, so that you can have sex without it being sinful, so that you receive that grace.
[12:55] And for the betterment of the community, for society as a whole, like we all benefit when people raise families because that's how our society is built upon.
First community we all belong to is the family and then we have the wider community and then we have our nationhood and these things are all good things, good things in the eyes of God, like objectively good. And so you know marriage is for a reason. God hasn't said it must be one man and one woman because I'm bigoted and I want human beings to be bigoted. He said this is good, this is ordered, this is a way for you to live your lives for the benefit of yourselves, the people around you and me.
You mentioned inclusivity a bit earlier and that term, it seems to be that we are misunderstanding terms.
I hear inclusivity a lot. You hear love being put out as well.
Love is love and God is love and we can all love each other as seemingly a green light to whatever you want.
Is there a way that we can kind of reclaim some of these terms, so to understand once again what they truly mean?
Yeah, of course, because this is what the left does, isn't it? They twist language.
They never actually outright lie. They use half-truths to make a lie seem real. And so
[14:12] when they talk about love, quite often, they're talking about lust. And it's the Hollywood version of love, right? That you're getting into a relationship with someone, and then have sex and that's it, that's the epitome of love and that's the pinnacle right there that we're all striving towards. Actually no, love doesn't mean that in a Christian context. Agape is the term used quite often but there are
[14:32] actually multiple terms for love in the Bible and it means it's something that's sacrificial, it's self-giving, it's willing the good of the other. It's not about you and people forget that quite often in this individualistic societies.
But I love him or I love her therefore I should be able to, I have a right to. No you're putting yourself first and foremost that's not love that's something else that's your own desire and desires often lead us to sin and love is completely the opposite of sin and when we say love is love it's a free for all isn't it because well if love is love it doesn't matter what the terms are there are no boundaries but of course there are boundaries on everything in life including love. And for me love should be in terms of marriage at least between a man and a woman. But that's not to say there aren't different types of love.
I love you as a brother, I love you know my friends in a different way to how I would expect to love my wife right. And likewise you love your children in a different way to how you love your spouse. So there are lots of different levels of love but even then there are boundaries on those different relationships and what I really struggle with at the moment in the LGBTQ plus III community is that they want to say that a sexual love, a desire, a lustful
[15:53] relationship is appropriate for anyone without boundaries and we all know where that heads if it's fine for two men or three men or four men or two men and eight women, whatever.
[16:04] Why is it not fine for a man and a child? And that's where it's all heading. That's where liberalism ends up. That's where the devil is pushing from. It's paedophilia is what they're aiming for. And people say, that's homophobic. You're saying you're conflating homosexuality with paedophilia. I'm not at all. I'm not in any way, shape, or form conflating the two.
I'm saying this liberal progressive movement, this work movement of love is love, of boundaryless, borderless love, results in paedophilia. And that's very different.
Well, picking up on that term and what we've seen with the drag shows, and you were highlighting one of them recently, but that whole, I mean I'm surprised, although I maybe shouldn't be, but I still try and be surprised at the lack of response from churches, that was Turning Point UK, so it is a secular organization. You've got you and Lozza and others
[17:01] actually standing up and opposing this, getting a report on GB News. It's kind of, you're looking around thinking, well, I'm just waiting for the local church to come in and actually get involved, but that's not happening. What has that been like as you've kind of campaigned on some of these issues without, probably with silence from the church. Tell us about that.
Even worse than silence, the church is getting involved, but on the other end.
St James's Piccadilly hosted a drag queen in their sanctuary, like a sacred space, and they're putting a scantily dressed bloke, dressed as a woman, which is an affront to women in the first place, but they're putting them there where Christ should be, by the altar essentially. And it's just, I don't want to use hyperbole, but it's demonic is what's happening here.
And the church is on the wrong side of this argument. And even this week, over the last couple of days, my Easter special got cancelled, right?
And I do Easter specials and Christmas specials every year. I think it's a time when I'm able to use the platform that I've been gifted to proclaim the gospel, to promote the message of salvation and redemption and to talk about Jesus Christ explicitly without having to talk about other political issues that I have to do on my normal show.
It's just a show entirely about Christ.
[18:19] And it got cancelled by a church because a gay member of the secular choir in the church said to the priest, we can no longer sing here if Calvin Robinson is coming here, he's a homophobe.
Now, rather than the priest using that as a teaching opportunity to say, no, Calvin's not a homophobe, the things he says there, you're misunderstanding.
He's a Christian.
He adheres to the Christian values on sex and sexuality. And let me talk to you about them." Instead of doing that, he said, "'Oh, let me talk to my bishop or his ordinary.'" He spoke to his ordinary.
Between them, they decided it would be too much hassle to have our Easter special film there.
So essentially they said, "'Look, you cannot proclaim the gospel this Easter because a gay member of a secular choir got upset.'" And that's how the woke mob works, isn't it?
[19:02] I think, was it one of the Christmases you were in there? Was it the Oratory and, where is it, South Kent, isn't it?
But tell me about those experiences, because you're bringing something quite different and quite fresh to the TV screens, to a news organization that wouldn't traditionally, or may have, songs of praise, which kind of ticks that religious box.
But what you're doing with those kind of specials seems to be more intentional.
And tell us about you personally, why you want to do that and
[19:39] maybe some of the positive and negative responses you've had.
Yeah, I mean, this is what I'm called to do, right? So the whole reason I'm on television is because I see it as a platform for public ministry. And the reason I'm not on TV full time is because it's not a career for me, it's not an ambition. However, I do feel like I've been gifted the platform of television and social media and all these things where I have a following is so that I can proclaim the truth. I can talk about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for his benefit and for theirs, right? And so for me these specials are well they're special, they are the reason I do the rest of the stuff that I do on TV because it gives me the opportunity to do these things and the response is, mostly positive. It really is. People are happy to see Jesus in the mainstream again and to see the Christian faith normalized and for someone to be unashamedly Christian and not embarrassed about their faith, that helps people in their faith and it also brings people to the faith. So we're evangelizing as well as encouraging. That is, you know, that's why I'm here, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Of course there are a minority of negative responses and they tend to be the ones that stick in my head because as human beings, as flawed human beings, that's what happens isn't it? You can have a hundred positive responses that one negative is what you remember but, You know, the
[21:01] Catholics, for my last special, the one you mentioned at the oratory, the most beautiful, I think it's one of the most beautiful churches in the country, the Catholics were saying, why have you let this Protestant in your sanctuary? Firstly, I'm an Anglican, not a Protestant
[21:13] And then the Protestants were saying, how dare he pray to a saint that he's invoking the saints?
This is not scriptural. And so the Protestants on one side, the Catholics on the other side, and I'm like, look, I'm here using a national platform to try and proclaim the gospel and and spread the message of Jesus Christ.
And you guys, the Christians, call it demon-pleased. How do you think we're going to get this message out to the rest of the world? It's like we fight and bicker amongst ourselves endlessly.
It's tiresome. We should be united in Christ.
[21:45] There's another issue that you've touched on on GB News as well, which is the sanctity of life and the buffer zones around, which probably is more a free speech issue than a pro-life issue.
And I know you've interviewed the lady who was arrested and arrested once again.
And that's just gone through parliament last week where they rejected any thought that prayer should be legal.
No, no way, we'll defeat that amendment, kick it out.
I mean, how, again, you're bringing that and it's interesting where maybe if you look at the States, the debate is a lively public debate where in the UK it seems to be a very lacklustre, extremely private debate.
And I'm wondering why it's been so, I guess, marginalizing conversation.
[22:39] I think because people are conflating those two issues, free speech and abortion, right?
So I can address this from a free speech perspective and say that no thought should ever be a crime.
And that Isabel Vaughan Spruce, who is a fantastic lady, who I've had on my show a couple of times, She's been arrested twice for praying silently within the vicinity of one of these
abortion centres when it was closed, when there were no other people around. So people can't say well she's harassing people or she's intimidating people because that's a lie. She's literally stood there silently minding her own business, praying in her head because she thoroughly believes in the power of prayer and she believes what's going on in the centres is evil and should be stopped and therefore she's praying to God for support for these women who think it's their only option. Of course it isn't. Now she could be actively protesting, she could be stood outside the abortion centre with a placard saying don't go in. She could be preventing people, she could be intimidating people. She's not doing any of that. She could even be there handing out literature offering these women alternative options. We know that's been successful in the past.
[23:42] And that women have been so grateful for the opportunity to discover another option that hasn't been presented to them up until that point, and they've gone on to raise children that they're very happy to have in their lives. She's not doing any of that, she's just silently praying in her I had. So I can address it saying look this is an issue of freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, even freedom of association. But then the naysayers on the other side will say no, this is about intimidation, harassment, this is about her impeding on someone else's right to abortion. And it always comes down to what they're actually protecting is the killing of unborn children. They don't care about the other freedoms and they want to balance that one. And it's not a balance, there's no balance there because, no one's preventing these women from abortion. As abhorrent as it is, it's
[24:29] about their feelings as they go to initiate this abortion.
That's what this is all about. It's about someone's freedom of religion versus someone's taking offense to someone's religion. And religion is losing.
I mean I had this conversation with a church leader and I should have just walked away quickly, but I wanted to delve a bit deeper and at the end of the conversation, a very pleasant conversation, but he said you're probably would be like one of those right-wing American Christians who would be shouting and abusing the women going in. And that made me think kind of how far do you go in doing what's right? If you see something wrong happening then do you actually intervene and with the case talked about it was just silent prayer, which is again free speech, thought's been legal. But actually I thought well as a Christian how kind of how far do you go in making a stand against what's wrong? I don't know what I'm not calling for aggression or violence, absolutely not, I'm just trying to work that out as we change in society and move further and further away from what is true. How do you see the response of those of us who are Christians?
Well the fact that that
[25:58] minister said that to you, that you'd probably be one of those right-wing Americans. It just shows, how far the faith has shifted, doesn't it? Like he should be, as a minister of the faith, he should be doing anything he can to save human life because all human life is sacred. And that's the message of the gospel. I despair at these people. I lost my train of thought on the question because I'm so annoyed at these so-called ministers. But I mean, it's not even happening in this country.
In the UK we've never had harassment outside abortion centres. I have seen it in America, granted, but we're not American and harassment in this country is already illegal. Therefore, what is this legislation for? You rightly pointed out that the amendment to remove prayer, to remove silent prayer from this bill, was rejected. So they explicitly want outlaw prayer.
Is it because these dark forces are playing and they understand the power of prayer and they don't, don't want Christians praying. Because it is about Christians as well. We see that, Muslims in this country are supported in a way that Christians are not. You can just scuff the corner of a page on a Quran and your child is receiving death threats, the mother is apologizing in front of the imams, backed up by the police, and the child is suspended from school. Yet a Christian cannot silently pray. This is a direct attack on God, is what this is. And our parliamentarians are a part of the problem.
[27:20] It's curious that you have a platform on a news channel, just like BBC or Sky, and then you've got GB News, and it's not a Christian channel in any shape or form, and yet GB News seems to have a greater understanding of right and wrong than many of our churches. I mean, how have you found, because you're given license to speak, I'm sure GB News is not perfect, nothing is, but you're given leeway and freedom to address these issues where probably the church maybe down the road would ban even any conversation about it. What does that feel like, that platform that you have?
That's an interesting way to put it, because I'm a pessimist, so I tend to think I'm held back, I'm restricted all the time.
I'm constantly fighting to talk about things that people don't want me to talk about, and to get guests on that people don't want me to have on.
It's a battle every single day. So I think it's nice of you to put it that way in that it is important for me to recognize that I do get a lot of conversations out there that wouldn't be had elsewhere and wouldn't be had otherwise.
[28:37] I try to at least be on the side of God, right? I wouldn't say it the other way around, I would say God's on my side.
I think that's arrogant. I try to be on the side of God. And if we're on God's side, it's the old adage, isn't it?
If God is with us, who can be against us? So as long as we are doing what we're doing for the greater glory of God, then we can't go wrong.
[28:56] Exactly, but no, I think you maybe see things differently when you're in the mix and you realize the difficulties possibly in putting something out, the public get to see what goes out and they see that positive message where you're maybe thinking actually that could have been more in that or we could have an extra but I mean God takes what goes out and uses for his purpose, doesn't affect people and if that's the only place they're seeing it then that's extremely positive.
Yeah, I think you're right there. Thank you for that. I needed to hear that.
Going on to just we, I started on mentioning Asbury and I was blown away actually by watching Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, programs that are not Christian actually having whole pieces on it. And I think War Room had like a four minute beginning intro of just Asbury Church service, I thought this is really curious watching the secular media promoting what is happening in churches. And I mean what were your thoughts as a Christian and as a journalist looking at,
[30:07] I guess that phenomenon, and many of our viewers will not be Christian and they may have different thoughts on it, but it was something new, refreshing, seeing the church packed, seeing the, miles long of traffic of people wanting to get there, because something special was happening there. Yeah, what were your thoughts looking at it?
It did look special, that's a good word for it.
It looked important, it looked significant somehow. They were all very young and it wasn't liturgical in any way, shape or form and it wasn't organized, it was just organic. It felt to me like the Holy Spirit was present, I'm sure it was. And I think, I hope that's the start of something bigger, a bigger movement in the States because we need a revival, especially Generation Z which is a generation, and I'm generalizing here, that is wrapped up in itself, an entitled generation of individualists. They need a reminder of something transcendental that is bigger than themselves, they need to be reconnected with God and whatever shape that takes I don't think it really matters.
[31:16] There's also a growing traditionalist movement, especially amongst Catholics, so that's entirely on the opposite end of the spectrum to Asbury, but if what's going on in Asbury, that charismatic movement, if that does something and connects people to Christ, then great!
Because I guess renewals throughout history never, are always different from previous and I guess if we were sitting planning one, it could be so different.
But it's interesting to see that, how they can often be so different when you read through church history and see how God has moved at different times in special ways.
They always seem to meet a hunger for something above, something greater than us and to give hope.
[32:06] But yeah, I've just been interested and I've gone back and been reading some of the great revivalist evangelists I guess and been excited by what God has done in past generations and how it changes society.
Absolutely and society needs changing right now. I talked quite a bit about how the Christian faith thrives under persecution. I think in the West now we're seeing intolerance verging on persecution but once it reaches there something will happen.
At the same time we're seeing the churches in the West crumbling. The big C church will never fall because Christ won't let it but the institutions can. That's the Church of England, that's the Episcopal Church in America, these churches are fallen because they're made up of fallen individuals who seem to be at the moment trying to appease the liberal progressive secular norms around them.
And so as these western churches die and as we become secularized and then persecuted.
[33:11] We will start to see more of these revival movements because there is a god-shaped hole in people's hearts that needs to be filled and people are latching on wherever they can to things that just don't fill, can't fill that hole. The only thing that can fill it is God. So eventually it all comes back round to him.
What are your thoughts there? Probably people have seen what's happened over there and thought, well, I'm not a Christian, I don't go to church, it's absolutely nothing to do with me, I don't care what happens.
How does a revival or renewal, a church being vibrant on fire, speaking truth, how does that affect or fit into society?
Well, I mean, this is it, this is it, right? right? People talk about the cultural wars but this is a spiritual war. I don't think people can truly understand what's going on unless they have the faith and there's no way to describe, there's no way to talk about it. It's like the matrix, right? You take the blue pill or the red pill and people who take the blue pill just they're ignorant and they cannot get it and I'm not saying that as an insult, it's just there's a wall there whereas people who take the red pill, people who have faith in Christ can see what's going on and it is it's wicked, it's evil, it's demonic and we need to fight against it. And it's not just about diversity, inclusion, equality, it's about
[34:27] replacing what's good, what's beautiful, what's true, replacing God with falsehoods, with a false narrative, with the devil, essentially.
And so, to the non-Christians who are watching, I suppose I'm praying for you, is the message I would say.
And I don't mean that in a patronizing way, I mean that in a way that I hope your eyes are opened and your ears are opened to Christ, just as people who watch your show, who consider themselves awake to what's going on around them and have problems, struggle talking to normies or NPCs, about COVID or Brexit or lockdowns or vaccines, whatever.
[35:08] Or the Ukraine.
It's difficult to have conversations with people whose eyes and ears are closed.
And that's how I feel at the moment about people who are not Christian, because this is the biggest spiritual war of a long, long time, and we're all in the middle of it.
[35:25] And I guess when you were saying you're a pessimist, I get that, but then from my point of view as a Christian, that's when it gets quite exciting because there isn't a step-by-step plan because it's so bad.
And you're thinking, where do we go from here as a society? And I think that's why something, what happened in Asbury was exciting because you kind of look at our politicians and I remember growing up and seeing so many Christian politicians, strong leaders, and we don't have that anymore.
So you look at wet Welby, you're thinking, well, that's not gonna provide much direction and guidance. So you're thinking, well, actually, the only way this can happen is God. And I think that's why being in a difficult, dark situation is exciting.
Yeah, and there's two sides to this. So on the one side, people want to defend Western culture, and rightly so, because it's a great thing, because it was built on Christianity.
However, it isn't Christianity. It is separate, and Western society can, and probably will fall, but that's okay, because another society will rise in its wake.
[36:37] But the thing we have to fight for isn't Western society, it's the Christian faith.
We have to fight for our Christian values, Because when society does fall, they are what will sustain us.
Christ in the mass will sustain us, and our faith in him will sustain us.
So we have to get past the idea of clinging onto the worldly goods that we see around us.
[36:59] What, it's, it's, it's sorry, I've lost my train of thought...
When you look at-
Sorry, just to add to that before we move on.
Because the great thing about that is, because even if we do lose this battle, We might not, we could still turn it around and woke could become a thing of the past and Western society could become strong again and the British empire could be revived.
You know, we can dream, but even if it doesn't, even if all this stuff crumbles like Rome fell.
[37:26] We're only losing the battle. The war has already been won. Christ defeated the devil. Christ conquered evil for us and he died for our sins and was resurrected for our salvation. So that is the good news, that it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, my God said I will build my church and the gates that will not prevail. So that's what happens in the end, irrelevant to the efforts of the enemy.
I've talked to many people in, I guess, the conservative movement, and many of them would talk about, well, they're a Christian, they're a cultural Christian, and they believe certain truths. Obviously, as a commentator, that's probably something you've come across a lot. Do you want to compare that, a cultural Christian, whether that's a Christian at all, and actually a personal faith and what that means.
Yeah, I don't really think there is such a thing as a cultural Christian, it's just a Brit, right, because British values are built on Christian values and they are aligned but they're not identical, just as Western society was built on Christianity.
[38:36] You're either a Christian or you're not, right, so you either believe that Jesus Christ was truly man and truly God and died on the cross for us. Or you don't. You either believe in the resurrection and we'll have eternal life in him or you don't. There is no cultural element to it.
[38:52] I mean you can turn up to church and enjoy the hymns as much as you like but if you don't believe what the songs are about it doesn't really matter.
Can I ask you about the split you touched on at the beginning, maybe it's something to end on, the split we have seen within the church where parts of the worldwide Anglican community have basically said, oh this is not biblical, enough is enough, and have drawn the line. There is a tension there between, I guess, the liberal, progressive, woke, Western church and the more traditional church of Africa, of Latin America, Asia. Tell us about that tension because I think often we can see what's happening in the Synod or the Church of England and think, well, it's all going to pot, but there are those bright sparks of tension desiring truth.
Oh yeah, absolutely. The majority of people in the Church are faithful and the majority of churches are orthodox. It's just this minority in the West, England, Wales, Scotland, America, Canada, and Australia that are falling more rapidly because they've left behind their orthodoxy.
[40:09] So in Anglicanism for example, the Church of England has entered apostasy now, it is promoting heresy as acceptable. So the Church of England has left the wider Anglican communion and we see this manifesting itself in several ways, but GAFCON, which represents 80% of Anglicans around the world, has said, well you guys have left us, therefore we now renounce you. So we don't see the Archbishop of Canterbury as the first among equals, he's no longer our leader. So now we're entering a period where conversations are being had with primates, bishops and church leaders around the world, saying do we need to elect a new leader? Do we need a leader at all? How is this all going to work?
And there's a meeting next month, the next GAFCON, which is the fourth global meeting in Rwanda. I'm going to head out there and see what's what and see what they decide. But it's going to be very interesting and very exciting. Though it's not just the Anglican Church, you know, the German Catholic bishops are trying to copy with their same-sex blessings and heretical views and the the Pope needs to have a strong firm hand and say, no, this is, This is you're excommunicated, be gone with you.
[41:16] Because there is an outcome of punishment that does come on. I mean even when it talks about the Lord's Supper, communion, remembering Jesus' death, and it talks about judgment upon the church, judgment upon yourself, if you enter into that without reverence and without recognizing your sin.
So I guess at some point there is that punishment.
[41:48] And not that I want you to end on full fire and brimstone, but I'm curious kind of how that plans out because as British living here, this is our country.
We've grown up with churches and seen them slide into, I guess, depravity often.
But I guess there is a line where God says, enough is enough.
Yeah absolutely and false teachers and false prophets will be punished more than everyone else because they're leading people astray and that's the issue there. Our shepherds were supposed to lead our sheep right and if you lead people the wrong way that's gonna upset God because he wants everyone to love him and he wants to love everyone. So I mean I'm trying not to put a negative spin on it but I'm trying to see what's the positive of that in that we are called to be good Christians and good shepherds and good sheep and we all have a responsibility. So if we see that our deacons, priests and bishops are leading people astray, we can hold them to account because they are servant leaders and we can remind them to be rooted in the scriptures and rooted in the tradition and the doctrines of the church and not to be chasing societal norms. And you know, none of us can do this on our own.
Calvin, thank you for your time. It's always good to talk to you.
[43:13] Im sure you get, was it GB views or GB news? That you get responses from viewers and I'd encourage the viewers to certainly tune in and give their responses because I'm sure part of you being on GB news, part of the enjoyment of it is having that interaction with the viewers.
I do love the engagement with the viewers. It's fantastic. One thing I miss about radio actually, being able to have them live on the show, that kind of thing is brilliant.
But yes, thank you. It's always a pleasure talking to you.
Not all. Thank you, Calvin.
