EP 33 - Flower Darby on Improving Online Teaching: Small Changes, Outsized Impact

In EP 33, John and Jason talk to Flower Darby about small steps for inclusive, equitable, and humanized online learning, and explore the transformative power of community, connection, and compassion in digital classrooms while tackling the future of AI’s role in education.

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Resources:

• Flower Darby Website
• Small Teaching Online (book)
• The Norton Guide to Equity-Minded Teaching
  • Request a free copy: https://seagull.wwnorton.com/equityguide
• Karen Costa’s 99 Tips For Creating Simple and Sustainable Educational Videos(book)
• Steven Covey - Circle of Control - Circle of Influence
• Flower’s Recent article in the Chronicle: https://www.chronicle.com/article/5-small-steps-for-ai-skeptics
• I’m a Doctor. ChatGPT’s Bedside Manner Is Better Than Mine. 

Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License.

Transcript

We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections!

False Start

[00:00:00] Flower Darby: It's always fun to talk to interesting, intelligent people who care deeply about our work. So I've, enjoyed our conversation.

[00:00:11] Jason:. So that's our,that's a lot of our main goal here, really, John, is to get to that point. Where people say nice things about us. And to know it's coming from a real person. I mean, ChatGPT loves everything I say, NotebookLM. Absolutely adores every article I've ever written and every line, but to know this is coming from a real person makes a difference for me. So thank you.

Real Start

[00:00:34] John Nash: I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston.

[00:00:37] Jason: John. Hey, everyone. And this is online learning in the second half, the online learning podcast.

[00:00:42] John Nash: Yeah. We're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for the last couple of years about online education. Look,

online learning's had its chance to be great and some of it is, but there's still some that isn't. So can we get to the next stage?

[00:00:56] Jason: That's a great question, John. How about we do a podcast to talk about it?

[00:01:00] John Nash: I think that's a great idea. What do you want to talk about today?

[00:01:04] Jason: Well, you know, one of the great things about being able to do a podcast is meeting cool people and people that can help us answer this question about, you know, what are we going to do in the second half of life as it comes to theonline podcast?

And maybe the second half of our lives too. I don't know, John. We could, I guess we could that into some of our podcast, actually get some, get some life coaching or something from the, from the guests as they come in.

[00:01:32] John Nash: if that involves me divulging my age. I'll, I'm not doing that yet.

[00:01:36] Jason: Okay. All right. Well, I think I just did a little bit, so, in just in a general sense. So that's good. Well, we have Flower Darby with us as a guest. And so I'm really excited to

talk to Flower. Hi Flower. How are you?

[00:01:51] Flower Darby: Hi, Jason. I'm so good. Hi, John. Thank you so much for inviting me onto your podcast. It is always a pleasure and a privilege. I don't take that for granted at all, but anybody cares what I think about anything. So thanks for having me.

[00:02:05] Jason: Yeah, well, thank you so much. Yeah. How would you like to introduce yourself, Flower? I mean, we could read some of the things off your bio, but what would you like our audience to know about you that might be helpful for them to understand our conversation today?

[00:02:21] Flower Darby: Sure, let me just quickly and conversationally sum up my background I don't, I'm not a fan of reading a bio, people can look that up themselves if they would like to get more information, right, But I have been teaching in higher education for coming up on 29 years, this January, it'll make 29 years, I have taught lots of different things, including English, dance, Pilates, and I've been teaching for over 30 years.

Leadership technology, educational technology. And as we were chatting about a few minutes ago, now I'm teaching social psychology because I just like to keep it interesting. But most of that teaching, there's two other things that I would quickly add. Most of that teaching has been as a part time instructor on top of the rest of my life, right?

That's just how we do. And that's how a lot of online instructors do. And the other thing I would add is that I've been teaching online for 16 years or so and have had the amazing opportunity to. Co author a couple of books on that topic. So, that's the perspective that I'm bringing here today.

[00:03:18] Jason: That's great. Yeah. And really the first time I saw your name that a little bit about who you were, through some of your writing and specifically book, Small Teaching Online.

This was a resource in my work that I both valued and learned from, but also have recommended to a lot of people over the years. and I think it's a really brilliant book and brilliant approach, which of course is a book, Small Teaching. You give people a synopsis of the approach of the book, if they're not familiar? 

[00:03:59] Flower Darby: All credit to James Lang for the concept in general. Small teaching is about how we can make little changes in our teaching practices that are based in the science of how people learn. And because they're based on such strong evidence, and such a strong research base, they actually have an outsized impact on student learning, student engagement, student memory and recall of information.

And, but the point is that these things are not overwhelming. They don't create a large grading burden. They don't take a lot of time to execute in a class or in a module. They're little things, little changes that have that outsized impact. And so, his book,

Small Teaching, has been extremely impactful for many faculty because it is so doable.

And so in around 2018 or so I met him and asked if he would be interested in working on a project together. Because I know that for online instructors, sometimes at heart, it can feel overwhelming. So that's what this book does, is it takes his very practical idea and just applies it very directly to specifically asynchronous online classes.

Synchronous classes were not As much of a thing when

we wrote that book as they became during COVID-19. So that's the idea. Little things that online instructors can do that are not overwhelming that really help online students to persist, to learn to thrive in these spaces.

[00:05:20] Jason: Yeah, and I think that that's a great synopsis. I love that. And I think I would just like to say to people, if you haven't read this book, and if you teach online, whether it's asynchronous or, or synchronous, I just go grab the book. It'll be really helpful. And I'm not saying this just because Flower is here, but it truly is is one of those books when people have asked me over the years. and I'm kind of glad we're coming back to this a little bit, John, too, because we've talked about the fact that, you know, we started this podcast to talk about online learning, and we just kind of dived right into talking about some of the almost 10, 000 foot kind of level stuff, right?

And we've talked a lot about AI and about overall theoretical kind of things. I'm not sure we've really gotten into kind of the smaller day to day practices. So this is just a good, maybe call it for that

[00:06:11] John Nash: Yeah, not so much. I think that's right. Yeah,

[00:06:14] Flower Darby: And thank you for your kind words about the book.

[00:06:18] Jason: Yeah. Well, it's true. You wrote that, it was published at least in 2019. A couple things have happened since then. I don't need to remind everybody of all the things, but one being COVID that you mentioned, of course. Hearing you describe it today, Got me thinking about , , some of the mental health crisis, both in students, but also the fact that teachers are feeling overwhelmed and how helpful it is to think about these small iterative improvements that we can make that don't feel overwhelming when we feel so overwhelmed about teaching and all the things that we're being expected to do on campus.

Do you think, so there's, I think there's.

it was pre-COVID doesn't mean there's not a lot of value there, because I think that there is, and I think a lot of it continues to translate.

But is there anything in this book that you would change, or update, or a new chapter that you would tag on if you were to write it today?

[00:07:18] Flower Darby: Yeah, good question. And I, one that I've thought a lot about, of course, and it may happen. There may be a second edition. I'm not going to commit to that right this minute, but I think there would be interest if capacity, becomes open enough to take that on.

For right now, hypothetically, one of The things that I would do would be to foreground the importance of community.

So right now, building community is chapter four in the book, and honestly, I think I would make it chapter one instead. I just really feel like all the logistics and everything that goes into creating inclusive online courses and applying universal design for learning and bringing in the community of inquiry framework, I feel like all of that.

This might sound like heresy, but I feel like all of that is actually secondary to the importance of relationships. And that's really how my thinking has evolved, and it was shaped by our experience during lockdown, when we sorely felt the lack of social contact and, whether at a personal level with family members who were remote from us, with our students really struggling to connect. There's lots of stuff in the book I agree with you and I thank you I think there's still lots that's relevant. But one of the big changes that I would make would be to foreground Community.

And I might even emphasize the importance of emotions as well, so I've really gone in the

direction of social and emotional learning, and how that impacts our ability to think, process information remember information so those might be things that I might emphasize differently.

Now, I'll be honest, whether or not I would bring in very much about synchronous online teaching, I might weave that in a little bit, but I don't really see, and I'd love your thoughts on this, I don't really see that synchronous teaching continuing at the same rate or level that asynchronous is, continuing.

So I'm not sure I would make that a big focus of that book if, I were to create a second edition.

[00:09:08] John Nash: Yeah, it's an interesting question. And, and to your idea of foregrounding community, do you feel like that that is a, is sort of a foundation for bringing about quality of the rest of the things that might've, you might've led with before community of inquiry, things like that, that those don't happen as well if you don't privilege community building first. 

[00:09:34] Flower Darby: My developing thesis related to all of this and you already alluded to it here is that it still seems like online education is not really what it could be. There's a lot of potential for it to it's doing great things. It's helping people access their college education and obtain a degree or credential people who wouldn't otherwise be able to do that.

That's important. But I think we're still missing some things. And to me that connection at a person to person level is the most important thing that we're missing. I believe that helping faculty to make those social connections and prioritize those actually leads to greater motivation to do all the rest of the stuff that we know is good, like universal design for learning principles and, implementing those kinds of ideas.

I think that right now, focusing on the person to person connection, humanizing the student experience, helping instructors and students see each other as real people instead of just names on a screen, which is something that I've struggled with in the past. I think the relationships and the rapport building is actually going to help improve some of the more logistical things as well in online classes.

[00:10:41] John Nash: Um, I took inspiration from that and started to do that more as well because I think it, it does, it humanizes the teacher to the students. It reduces the distance. And I see how you know, so yeah, I think it would motivate an instructor to be more thoughtful about why I'm in here and what I'm doing.

[00:11:00] Flower Darby: For sure. That's definitely the direction my work has gone over the last few years is how it is very motivational and how it actually supports enhanced cognition and better learning is the result. I suspect that many instructors, I have two theories here. I think that many instructors just haven't been invited to think about that before, right?

Not the kind of thing that we talk about very much. And I think that there might be some folks who are like, I don't need all that person to person stuff. That's not really important. That's not where learning happens, but actually it is.

There's recent and growing body of literature regarding the neuroscience of how people learn and that person to person connection, that feeling like I care about you as my student and you care about me as your instructor.

That 100 percent motivates greater student engagement, persistence, learning, all the things. So yeah making each other seem like real people. That's really the direction that I've been going because there are learning benefits to it as well. And 100%, I believe it supports instructor wellbeing. Right, so we, Know that many instructors are dealing with significant mental health challenges and burnout and such, but actually prioritizing connecting with students is a way to recharge our teaching battery and supports our flourishing as well.

[00:12:15] John Nash: Yeah, nice.

[00:12:16] Jason: think this is one of the touch points that you mentioned Flower, about, about some of the improvements. think we should and can make in the next half here, where they're teaching online and they feel very disconnected from the students. And it's not just because of asynchronous, right? We can have the same issue I've had, and for even myself, synchronous classes can feel very disconnected, or they can feel very connected.

And then asynchronous classes can feel very disconnected, they can feel very connected.

[00:12:50] Flower Darby: Right.

[00:12:51] Jason: I wonder about as, we try to get into this, space of continuing to improve our classes as we talk about scaling our classes,

are some of the things that we can do to continue to humanize our online classes? And then we want to talk about some of your other writing and so on that you've done too.

[00:13:12] Flower Darby: Yeah, thank you. So I don't know if this is your experience, but I'm humbled to be able to talk with online instructors. In the hundreds. And I still hear a lot, and I frequently hear that many online instructors are very nervous about or resistant to the idea of capturing informal videos to put in their asynchronous classes in particular.

And I really think there's so much potential. That's one of the best ways to make asynchronous classes more engaging for students. But I, still perceive that there's a lot of reluctance, resistance, nervousness. A lack of confidence and I certainly understand that we, none of us set out to become recording artists or professional presenters, right?

Much to your point about earlier about how faculty are being asked to do more and more. That isn't really what we set out to do. However we know from the research that students really want to just see casual, informal, messy videos, because they would if you were in person, right? They would see you having a bad hair day, they would hear you tripping over your tongue, And so I think it's important to help instructors realize that with these quick little recordings, even from their smartphone, I have an example I'd like to share about an instructor who was filling up her car with gas and got out her smartphone and recorded a quick video and said, "Hey, I have a couple of minutes and I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you and don't forget about this." That's the kind of thing that if we could become a little more comfortable with our own fallibility as people and recognize that as Karen Costa says the author of a book on 99 tips to create educational videos, she said students are not looking for Hollywood quality productions in our online classes, but they are looking for you. And so those short videos are a really important way to humanize. And then of course, if the technology permits and with some sensitivity to student reluctance or maybe valid reasons why they don't want to record. I definitely think when we can get students to share recordings with each other as well, even quick little informal ones, they become more like real people to each other. The community can build more effectively in that way.

[00:15:18] Jason: Yeah, you bout what people consume right now, right? And you have a bit of a "both and." So people love, and I'm kind of the same way, but I see this especially with my kids and students.

People love a well produced movie that tell, has a narrative that looks fantastic and you just sit in awe and you get kind of captured by it for a little while. But they also consume an awful lot of shaky like smartphone videos on weird backgrounds that are, that are jump cut about a hundred times. And I don't think it has to be an "either or," but I think that I like this movement towards just kind of relaxing and recognizing that there's a lot of space for that to happen that I could, that could really humanize. And again, you mentioned earlier the community of inquiry and just kind of to pull in that teaching presence a little bit more.

[00:16:17] Flower Darby: Yeah, And I feel like it's a continuum or a journey. When I first started recording videos for my class. I was more comfortable in the kind of setting that you can see on your video. screens Now, I know the podcast doesn't have video, but when I would be seated at my desk wearing professional attire and feeling more ready to be professional in the mini lectures that I would record, that's, that helped me gain more confidence to the point that I remember at one point when my daughter was younger, she, I was recording a quick little announcement in my home office, my nine year old hopped up behind me and went, and like I might have in the past, I might have said, "'Okay, get out of here.' Now I need to start that recording again, but this time I just left it in

there. And I said, go away. I'm doing something and just kept right. So that is a little bit of an evolution to maybe people might feel more comfortable. Being a little bit more prepared, having a script, or some talking points, some slides.

And then I think we become more comfortable with the fact that we are real people, living real lives, and willing to let students in and see that side of us. Again, because I would argue that this happens when we teach in person anyway. So, let's make an intentional effort to let this happen in online "spaces too.

[00:17:29] John Nash: Yeah, somehow video before COVID, I think, yeah, it gave us the false impression that things had to be polished and done. And then all of us, the world is thrown into Zoom nation and we see people's backgrounds and their bedrooms and they're just, yeah, and kids. And then I think that may have helped also to let us give more grace to people who were on video to be themselves and just get the message.

[00:17:54] Flower Darby: I agree. And yet I still hear, even in the last year, I still hear from faculty all the time that they're really afraid to record a quick video. So I think we could do a lot, honestly, if we can help faculty be willing to try. Remind them that here's another thing that I'd like to remind folks is, the very first time that you stepped into an in person college classroom, you were probably really nervous, right?

So it's okay. If you don't feel super confident about the video yet, try it. It will get easier with practice just like teaching in person did. Those are the kinds of things that I mean there's other we could talk all day about other ways to

humanize online classes But I really think there's a ton of potential with videos that is not really being tapped yet

[00:18:34] Jason: Yeah, and helping students also to understand maybe that there's a time and place for the professionalism versus just being just connected and just, and I like to be able to show them both, right? But I remember was actually in my summer online class, and right now I'm, I'm recording in my home office, which also, now you can't see this, everybody, also happens to be the laundry room, right? Also happened to share it with the cat. And so I did basically that in my first video in my summer online class is to say, you know, it's okay. I don't, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that, that you feel like that you are connecting here, that, that you are learning, that we're getting the content together.

Please pull the curtain back if it helps you. And if it doesn't, that's fine too, you know, it's all right. We don't have to have the production here for learning to really happen for us to make this a , good experience, but I still feel a little uncomfortable.

So I'm like, and I don't like to be distracting. So I'm going to go back and put the curtain over my washer and dryer now.

[00:19:41] Flower Darby: I love it so much. And I love like the physical metaphor of drawing the curtain back. You actually made me think of a colleague that I used to work with in a different context wasn't actually higher education. I was serving in a global nonprofit and this gentleman had his zoom meetings in his bathroom.

He really did. Now he pointed, that was the only place in his home that was quiet. Was not, like on the toilet, but that was his...

[00:20:05] Jason: I was going to say that could be very convenient as well.

[00:20:08] Flower Darby: he had a little, he had a little tiny workspace and it was in the bathroom and I think he had been a little bit intentional about what was behind him.

But yeah we, I love what you said about the important thing is connecting. And we just make it happen however and wherever we can. That, that, really is a key takeaway.

[00:20:24] Jason: I want to make sure that we have some time to talk about equity because I know this is a big thing for you. And this last may actually Flower, you and I met, I think, for the first time. at the Digital Universities Conference in St. Louis. We're on a panel together called "Blueprint for Change, Achieving Access through Equitable Course Design."

I do not feel like I am an expert in equity, by any means. I do have some expertise in course design and I try to be equitable in, in what we do and in how we move things forward.

But we were asked a question at the beginning to define equity. And my defense, they didn't tell us they were going to ask this question at the beginning.

I think my answer was a little elusive probably, and it might've been partly because I didn't you know, honestly, I was put on the spot and I didn't really have a clear definition in my head about what equity was, my answer was also like, you know, as I'm , less concerned about clear cut definition and more concerned about how

we are, designing towards our students.

But then when it came to you, you actually had a fantastic definition of ,of, of equity. And you were like, Oh, well, actually I do have a clear definition. And because I helped write a book on it kind of thing. So as we get started on equity, how would you define equity?

[00:21:51] Flower Darby: I will start. Thank you. I will start with more of an everyday way of thinking about this, much like you were just talking about your understanding. And then I will trot out the sort of official definition that my co authors and I developed for the "Norton Guide to Equity Minded Teaching." But really, I think you're right in line with the main goal, which is to ensure that any student who enrolls in a class, whatever the modality, you. Any student can be successful and there are things that we can do to help students be more successful. Design choices, teaching practices on a day to day basis, humanizing ourselves is key to advancing equity, to helping all students who enroll in a class be successful. For me, that's what this is all about, regardless of their background, regardless of their level of preparation, regardless of the communities that they grew up in or the color of their skin or their sexual orientation or their faith.

Any student who shows up in my class, I'm going to do everything that I can to support that student. That's how I think about equity. Now, regarding the book, what we said is, because we wanted to distinguish equity minded teaching from inclusive teaching, and everything that I just talked about is, you could also say, yeah, that's inclusive teaching, and we agree that there is a lot of parallel, a lot of overlap.

Maybe the Venn diagram is pretty Thoroughly overlapping there, but with the book, we distinguished equity minded teaching as also paying attention to grades and learning outcomes and Promoting parity in those learning outcomes. Really, unfortunately, there are persistent gaps in higher education attainment, grade inflation, all these kinds of things based on students social identities and backgrounds. And we said, okay, but if we're really going to be equity minded, we're going to pay attention to closing those gaps. We have to engage with the data see who's benefiting, who we can do more to support. And so focusing on promoting parity in outcomes is how we make that distinction.

We also brought a strong focus on the importance of critical self reflection on the instructor's part. None of the work is really going to be meaningful and sustainable if we're not also noticing, how we're doing as an individual.

Are we experiencing well being? Are we struggling? Factoring ourselves in and noticing when we might make a misstep, but that's pretty inevitable if you ask me. But then be willing to learn from that and do better. There's a big reflective piece in our definition as well, paying attention, thinking about committing to those small iterative changes that we were talking about, we took a strong page right out of the small teaching book and that approach is embedded in the Norton guide as well. So, yeah.

[00:24:38] John Nash: We were talking about earlier, Jason, you were mentioning that the arc of our podcast has been sort of at the higher level stuff and not at the sort of the tip level or what's happening in the classroom. And I wanted to look at a couple of things, Flower, if it's okay, that come out of the guide and there's a tip in there to translate arcane sounding, jargon laden. learning objectives into goals that make sense to students.

And I thought this was particularly, you know, powerful as a reminder of the agency that instructors have, may forget that they possess. I mean, I've fallen into it. I'm handed some learning objectives and I have to just sort of print these. Maybe there's even a state mandate that I have to state them in a certain way and then, then I move on. And so, yeah, could you say a little bit about that? And where the power is inside that?

[00:25:28] Flower Darby: Yeah, I love it. So in the book we do have three sections and the whole first section is about the planning of our classes. And we do very intentionally talk about in person classes, online classes, everything in between, the hybrids, the blends, the synchronous, the asynchronous. But what that is about, what you were just talking about, is really about enhancing student motivation based on goal theory. So if I have a sense of why I'm doing what I'm doing, what the purpose is, how it's going to help me, I'm going to naturally experience more intrinsic motivation and motivation precedes learning. Learning does not happen unless motivation is in the mix as well. So, yeah that really academies that jargony kind of language that nobody would understand.

I agree oftentimes it's mandated. There's accreditation factoring in there. But we can also add our own explanation of what it really means for students. It can be in writing in the syllabus. It could be in a welcome video that we make. Helping students understand what the goal is in our classes. And I love what you said about instructor agency.

Because, yeah, we spend a lot of time thinking about what I've have really also gotten into is the Stephen Covey circles of control. And it's essentially a three part diagram where there's the center of the circle. That's where I have control. That's my area that I can I'm responsible for. And then the second circle going outward is influence. Here's where I might be able to shape other people's thoughts, perceptions, maybe advocate for change.

And then the third circle is concern. And for me, that's really helpful to remind myself of, hey, there are things that I do have control over. How am I communicating with my students? How am I helping them understand what we're doing in this class? And then there are things that I don't have any control over, and it's helpful for me to relegate those to those outer circles and not waste my headspace, my limited headspace on navigating those things.

But we have a lot of agency, even, I'm sometimes asked what if I'm just given a class that somebody else already created or what if I'm teaching a publisher, created online course, you still have agency over how you communicate with your students and convey compassion and care and support and be their coach, be their cheerleader. That's where I see that kind of agency coming in. I love that you brought that up. Thank you, John.

[00:27:52] John Nash: Yeah, of course. There was another thing that, and I'm sort of looking at Jason again, but there seems to be a theme popping up here. I know when we talked to Catherine Denial in our last episode this idea of the importance of the syllabus is the first signal of inclusiveness. mentioned earlier flower talking about you do an annotated syllabus.

I know there's ideas around liquid syllabus, other things, but can all also talk about this here, but this idea of the syllabus just seems like it's such a low-hanging fruit. It's particularly useful in humanizing online learning. Could, could you say a little bit about that?

[00:28:31] Flower Darby: Well, yeah, I think what we want to do is to invite faculty members to think about it, and I say that really deliberately because for many years of my teaching, I didn't give a whole lot of thought to the syllabus, and I know it's still extremely common to be given a syllabus or to, have access to some colleagues syllabus and then use those to create an example from. I think that many of us Thanks a lot. Myself included have thought about it like just the furniture in the room like, okay We got to have that but that's not the important stuff. What and so I think there's this new focus on really Carefully analyzing that document realizing how much it Communicates to students.

Are you going to be a friendly and approachable instructor or are you aloof and distant? Because a lot syllabi read is very uninvolved and impersonal, and when it comes to online classes and the distance that is baked into the format, anything that we can do to reduce students sense that we are impersonal, distant, or aloof is really important and valuable to do, and the syllabus offers us a prime way and a tool and a place to do that.

[00:29:37] John Nash: hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:29:38] Jason: Well, we'll put a link to you know the small teaching online book as well as the Norton guide to equity minded teaching. Really, really helpful book. There's even a way to request a free copy. and we'll put a link in for that?

So yeah, that's great. What do you what are you working on next Flower?

[00:29:57] Flower Darby: Yes. Well, I'm very excited. I've talked a little bit today about the direction that I've been going with my research and scholarship and really where I'm going is how we can enjoy teaching online more. Now, I know for a fact, there are some online instructors and probably some of your listeners who really do love teaching online I know that, but I think there's not enough of us yet. So, we know, and this is, terrible, but it bears out in the literature that students tell us that they feel like they're online struck instructors aren't there. We're just not there in our classes. And I still hear this. I saw this on LinkedIn just a few weeks ago. A faculty member was saying, "Teaching online is easy money because my course just runs itself. I don't even have to interact with students." And I'm like, what, like, how is that still a thing?

And what I've concluded is that it's because we don't really enjoy being in our online classes the way we enjoy teaching in person. For those of us who enjoy teaching in person, it doesn't feel the same, right?

Even earlier in this conversation, we were talking about being in a physical classroom and the buzz and the interaction with embodied students. And we love it. So that's where my work is going next is how do we help instructors enjoy being in our online classes? How do we help students enjoy being online, right? It can feel extremely transactional, a means to an end, I need to get that degree, but what have we cultivated flourishing in our online spaces for both ourselves and our students? That's what I've been working on. I'm very excited. Again, lots of practical things that we can do in that regard.

[00:31:30] John Nash: I'm excited to see where that goes. That's neat. That's really neat.

[00:31:34] Flower Darby: Thank you.

[00:31:36] Jason: I think those ideas will continue to hit home for people, both students and teachers, partly because, and I didn't make a promise not to bring up AI, but we almost got through this podcast without talking about AI, John. So far, we're like, we're like, 33 now for 33 talking about AI.

So we don't need to get a big con. This could be a whole another conversation, of course. But I think about particularly in, and I was just at a conference yesterday and talking to a lot of people about AI myself, as well as hearing from people about AI, particularly in this world that we're moving into.

Where this presence of AI could become so attractive, seductive to bring into our classes to just that, that would relieve a maybe some of that feeling that we have to be so present for some people that don't want to be present in the classes, but maybe for some people that actually do want to be present, this idea of this AI that can be kind of present and take care of a lot of these things for us.

Especially as we move into this kind of AI agency world where it can do multiple things maybe at one time. I don't know. I feel like we're moving Into a second half of online life that could have this as a bit of a, almost a counterforce to this idea that you're talking about, which is really bringing ourselves more into the online class and having enjoyment in that presence and thing for the students. Mm-Hmm.

[00:33:22] Flower Darby: Yeah, it's really complex. It's funny. I had not even noticed that we hadn't brought up AI, and it is a I think there's a lot of nuance there. On the one hand, when I talk to folks about, we need to be interacting with our students more. That can sound like that. I think we ourselves are 24 7 chatbots. We just need to always be online, always responding, always replying to an email, right?

Yeah. And honestly, our students and ourselves, we have become accustomed to that instant response from the many chatbots that we interact with all the time on customer service sites as one example.

But I'm not saying that we need to be there. And actually, I may be able to fill that. That gap a little bit. We know That in asynchronous classes, students are doing their work whenever they can in their busy schedules. We know they are juggling a lot of things and they are very likely doing their work at a time when we are not necessarily online be evenings, weekends, whatever.

When thoughtfully implemented, maybe AI can be a helpful resource in that moment where the student needs that help. I know I've been using AI in that way let me turn to ChatGPT and see if I can develop a little better understanding of this concept. But let me be very clear and say by no means am I saying that AI is going to replace us. We need to be in our classes. Our students need us. They need our humanity. They need our experience. They need our wisdom. These are things that AI cannot do.

And somebody might say, well, they're going to be able to do that pretty soon. We're designing for empathy and emotional intelligence. I'm saying no, AI does not have the experience of dealing with, in my case, my own daughters who are working through anxiety and mental health challenges. And I see how that impacts their ability to be successful. I have that empathy born out of my own human experience. Students will always need us for that. Not to mention our expertise but AI cannot replace us, but maybe it could be a helpful tool to increase some communication and responsiveness.

[00:35:24] John Nash: Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:35:32] Jason: how all this is going to work, right? Like we're, we're just, we're peering into a future that is unknown at this point, as much as I like to speculate. And, and I'm a big fan of sci fi, dystopian robot movies, particularly, but, but I, I'm going to throw this out in front of both of you and see what you think about this.

I was talking yesterday to people about how, particularly as AI starts to become more human like, it starts to create more psychological space for us, as if we are, responding to a human. So space without the psychological depth to know that there is a human there.

Now I'm talking to both of you. You're hearing me. I see eye contact, even though we're online. I feel your presence with me. I know that I'm saying something and it's actually being heard by other humans

I feel like that this difference between psychological space versus actual psychological depth and . Maybe some of that difference that gonna we're gonna know as we as we go along a little Little further into this.

What do you guys think?

[00:37:00] John Nash: You first , Flower.  (ha ha)

[00:37:01] Flower Darby: Was waiting for some pearls of wisdom there, John. Here's, I hadn't thought about it that way. So thank you, Jason. That gives me some new things to think about. The psychological depth in particular. I guess I just. Think that A. I. Is never going to care about our students as people the way that We can. And I heard this very passionately and eloquently shared from one of our top leadership at the University of Missouri. One of our vice provosts said. To a room full of faculty, AI is not going to care about your student whose dad just received a terminal four cancer diagnosis and is not going to work with that student to make sure that they have what they need to be successful.

AI is not going to care, I think, right? As you said, who knows? I don't have a crystal ball. But those authentic human based connections again, cultivating that, empathy, that care. I'm going to have to think more about psychological depth, but I'd love to learn more about that.

That's where I think that we need to go with this conversation.

[00:38:03] Jason: That's a great example. That's kind of what I think, like, I think that AI will be programmed to maybe respond even appropriately by the book and so on to somebody that's having this even respond in a way that is empathetic. That is, "Oh, if you need some extra time" or whatever like that, all the things, however, the student. will not have that, that psychological support that there was actually a human being that was there for me.

[00:38:33] Flower Darby: That's so important because we know.that we are wired for connection. We know that, biologically speaking, our very survival depends on connecting with other people and feeling connected with other people. And I think that's the key here, is that even, as you said, the student may get response that is empathetic sounding, but We'll still know it's not a real person. Yeah, that that's really interesting.

[00:39:00] John Nash: If, if we reveal it. So there's an interesting article, and I can share it in our show notes later. It was in the New York Times, and it was entitled, "I'm a doctor, GPT's bedside manner is better than mine." And Dr. Jonathan Reisman talks about

study in which ChatGPT's answers to patient questions were rated as more empathetic, and also of higher quality than those written by actual doctors. But it's his closing statement that bothered me the most about this, which he said "in the end, it doesn't actually matter if doctors feel compassion or empathy towards patients. It only matters if they act like it."

[00:39:36] Flower Darby: Wow.

[00:39:37] John Nash: "In as much as the same way, it doesn't matter that AI has no idea what we or it are even talking about. There are linguistic formulas for human empathy and compassion, and we should not hesitate to use good ones no matter who or what is the author." So even human, I mean, yeah, I just don't know what to make of this. We have a lot of work to do amongst our human compatriots let alone our artificial ones.

[00:40:00] Flower Darby: I mean, I'm glad you brought that up because again these tools, right? They're tools, they are tools and tools can be used for better or worse, and they are improving communication, empathy that they are. So that's good. Like for me this whole topic of AI is so nuanced, so complex. There are no clear answers. I think it for me again, it comes down to how we're using the tools. If this tool is going to make my email to my students come across as a little warmer and more supportive and friendly and approachable. Great. Let me use the tool. But I'm choosing to firmly stay in my stance that it's not going to replace us.

Human connection counts.

[00:40:39] Jason: And I think that example too, John, kind of points to where the work is, right? Our work, though it is embedded with technology, is actually with people. And I was thinking about this, this quote that I had in my presentation yesterday, which is, "the answer does not lie in rejection of the machine, but rather in the humanization of man."

And this is by Paulo Freire. And about how much our leadership work is not leadership of technology. It's leadership of people.

[00:41:10] John Nash: Yes.

[00:41:11] Jason: and our, our work is to understand what is happening in the technology, but then to lead people who are more empathetic and are are bringing more humanity into their spaces.

[00:41:27] Flower Darby: Love it.

[00:41:29] Jason: Well, this has been great flower. Thank you so much.

[00:41:33] John Nash: Yeah.

[00:41:33] Flower Darby: Absolutely. thank you again for having me on the show. It's always fun to talk to interesting, intelligent people who care deeply about our work. So I've, enjoyed our conversation, right?

[00:41:47] Jason: us. So that's our, that's a lot of our main goal here, really, John, is to get to that point of people saying nice things about us. So and to know what's coming from a real person. I mean, ChatGPT will, ChatGPT loves everything I say, NotebookLM. Absolutely adores every article I've ever written and every line, but to know this is coming from a real person makes a difference for me. So thank you.

[00:42:10] John Nash: Yes. I actually do believe Flower that you were showing real compassion and not just acting like it. Yes.

[00:42:19] Flower Darby: Yes. you got that right, John. Thank you.

[00:42:23] Jason: Yeah, thank you so much for being with us. For those listening, we'll put some links into our show notes. You can always find our podcast at www.OnlineLearningPodcast.com , that's www.OnlineLearningPodcast.com . You can look us up on LinkedIn, but our links are there as well. We'd love to chat with you. But thank you so much.