In this special Veterans Day episode, Reed Smith partner Julia Lopez guest hosts a discussion with lawyers Melisa Geist and Kathy Oviedo to discuss their pro bono work to help veterans get a second chance at disability benefits that were wrongly denied or delayed. They’re joined by Rochelle Bobroff, pro bono director at the National Veterans Legal Services Program, which works to ensure that the government delivers to our nation's 22 million veterans and active duty personnel the benefits to which t...
In this special Veterans Day episode, Reed Smith partner Julia Lopez guest hosts a discussion with lawyers Melisa Geist and Kathy Oviedo to discuss their pro bono work to help veterans get a second chance at disability benefits that were wrongly denied or delayed. They’re joined by Rochelle Bobroff, pro bono director at the National Veterans Legal Services Program, which works to ensure that the government delivers to our nation's 22 million veterans and active duty personnel the benefits to which they are entitled because of disabilities resulting from military service.
This episode was produced with support from RSVets, Reed Smith’s veterans and military family business inclusion group.
For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.
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Transcript:
Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.
Julia: So, welcome back to another episode of Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. Thank you for tuning into our podcast on Reed Smith's partnership and pro bono work with the National Veterans Legal Services Program. I'm today's host Julia Lopez. I'm a life sciences partner in our Princeton office. And like my guest today, I have been trained by attorneys at the National Veterans Legal Services Program and have been able to represent veterans in pro bono matters. Today, we are joined by a very special guest, Rochelle Bobroff, who is the director of pro bono program for the National Veterans Legal Services Program, supervising attorneys in their lawyers, servicing Warriors program. I'm also joined by two of my colleagues, Melissa Geist and Kathy Oviedo. Melissa is a partner in Reed Smith's Print in office and the co-chair of Reed Smith's Life Sciences Health Industry Group. Kathy is an associate in a Princeton office and like Melissa and I, she also defends pharmaceutical and medical device manufacturers. So with that brief introduction, I want to welcome Rochelle Melissa and Kathy to the podcast. Thank you for joining me today. I'm very excited about today's discussion. So let me kick this off to Melissa. Melissa. Can you provide me with some background on Reed Smith's long standing commitment to representing veterans?
Melissa: Sure. Thank you Julia and thanks everyone for joining us today. Let me start by saying, as part of Reed Smith's pro bono program, we have long provided legal services to veterans and military families. Currently. As by way of an example, we have approximately 150 Reed Smith lawyers involved in representing 50 veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan, for example, in connection with medical benefits claims at the US Department of Veteran Affairs or the, or the VA. And in the last three years, I went and took a look back. We have devoted more than 2300 pro bono hours in representing our veterans. In connection with our goals and dedication to our veterans a few years ago, the firm also formed a global inclusion group that we call RS Vets in an effort to bring together our lawyers and our professional staff who are serving in the military today or who have served in the military or individuals who may have friends or family in the military and then others such as me who simply want to get involved in the firm's efforts to support veterans and address veterans related issues. Part of the reason behind forming RS Vets was to professionally support veterans and also highlight for our clients, what we believe are the unique strengths and values that our veterans bring to our various practices. Reed Smith lawyers with military service, lead this effort and charge on our behalf. For example, our partner in um our San Francisco office, Jesse Miller, he's a litigation partner and he heads up our RS Vets group. Jesse himself is a veteran. He's a decorated colonel in the army National Guard. And one of the things that is important um to us that we express to our clients is the unique perspectives that the veteran may offer to their case. And I'll just use Jesse's words by way of an example that there is definitely a certain synergy to what we do for our clients and what the military does in terms of planning, precision, execution, and having a mission. So we do find a lot of value in offering our clients the experiences and perspectives of our veterans who are part of our firm. We recently joined, I think it was about three years ago in partnership with the National Veterans Legal Services Program or NVLSP. And to further our efforts on behalf of veterans and look for specific pro bono opportunities to represent our veterans. Our Reed Smith attorneys have received excellent and very thorough training from NVLSP and we work with supervising attorneys to help us handle these cases and advocate on behalf of our veterans. And one thing I do finally want to add that we personally have found that it's a great opportunity to also forge partnerships with our clients outside of Reed Smith who share our same commitment to honoring and defending the men and women in our armed forces. So by way of personal example, Julia and Kathy and I, among with others on our team, have had the fortune to represent veterans in a number of different medical benefit cases. And we have co counseled with our client Merck, for example, in our efforts on behalf of veterans in these cases.
Julia: Thank you, Melissa for that thorough uh background on Reed Smith's commitment to representing veterans. I'm, I'm now gonna ask Rochelle to tell us a little bit more about the National Veterans Legal Services Program and the work that you do, Rochelle.
Rochelle: Thank you so much for including us in this podcast. We are honored to, to join you and to partner with Reed Smith. The National Veterans Legal Services Program is a nonprofit organization. We were formed in approximately 1981. Our mission is to ensure that our nation's disabled veterans and active duty personnel receive the benefits to which they are entitled. We will represent individuals who need assistance and we also do class action lawsuits. We train and mentor veterans advocates, both lawyers and non lawyers nationwide. We publish the Veterans benefits manual which is thousands of pages with guidance for veterans advocates. And then we have lawyer serving Warriors, which is our pro bono project and all of the services provided by lawyer serving Warriors are completely free. And that comes through a network of volunteer attorneys such as Reed Smith and often our firms partner with their clients like Merck who you mentioned and we provide assistance to veterans of all errors with a number of military disability issues.
Julia: Thanks Rochelle. And on that note, can you tell us how our case is screened at the National Veterans Legal Services Program? And, and how do you mentor attorneys?
Rochelle: So initially disabled veterans will apply to us for legal assistance and that is usually online and so is very uh active even in a, in a pandemic, we still have lots of veterans applying to us and we then request their medical records. Unfortunately, the VA can take a year or sometimes even longer to get us the records we need. But then we will carefully screen through the files looking to see whether there are documented medical conditions such as post traumatic stress disorder that can help them to obtain greater benefits. And after we look through thousands of pages of files and find that there is good documentation, we will place meritorious cases with volunteer law firm or corporate council attorneys. The volunteer lawyer from the law firm will serve as the lead counsel and we will serve as mentors helping the volunteer to prepare a successful case. That begins with a screening memo which tells you a little bit about the veteran, their facts, the applicable law, we had info papers or we may have a, a guide depending on the subject matter. We have briefs, sample briefs that we can share. We start with an initial call to explain the case and answer any initial questions. We will once you've dived into the files, if you have follow up calls, we will do follow up calls or email. When there's a draft brief, we will review that and provide guidance and any questions that come up along the way, we are here to answer questions and to help the volunteer have a great experience. For most of our cases, it's about writing a brief that gets submitted that we will absolutely assist with.
Julia: Thank you, Rochelle. So let me turn back to Melissa. Melissa, what are some of the challenges that you have seen in serving the veteran population?
Melissa: It's a great question, Julia, let me start by saying one of the challenges that we at Reed Smith have not faced is any lack of guidance or support from our um attorney mentors at NVLSP. I just do wanna reiterate that because if people are interested in helping and representing a veteran on a pro bono basis, it can be intimidating if it's an area outside of your practice. And we have found that the training and mentoring at NVLSP has really made it quite easy and seamless for us to represent our clients. But in terms of challenges, there have been a number of challenges that we have seen in connection with our representation of the men and women in the armed forces in these matters. Let me start with reintegration. So we have found that many veterans feel unable or reluctant to talk about their military service and experience, particularly with people who are outside the military. And sometimes it has also been our experience that there seems to be a sense that civilians like ourselves perhaps do not understand the nature or the sacrifice that the veteran has provided. In other words, you know, a perception that we simply may not be able to relate to their particular and unique experiences. It has certainly been a challenge, but we feel that it's, it's a challenge that is easily overcome because it simply goes to relationship building and having conversations with the veteran and ensuring he or she that we are all on the same, same side. And we're, we are happy to get to know them and listen to their experience. Another challenge or hurdle that we have faced is getting the veteran client to understand that it's actually ok to ask for help. And I think the challenge here is because this is contrary to the message that the veteran has been told during their time in the military, ie just soldier on typically seems to be the message that has been consistently provided to the veteran. So getting an individual to admit that they need help or ask for assistance or guidance really involves a major change in thinking on the part of the veteran. But again, that just comes with building a relationship and establishing trust with the client. Another challenge that we have seen personally in our representation of veterans is that many of them come to us with mental disabilities. In particular, we do see a lot of veterans suffering from PTSD or traumatic brain injury as a result of their service in the military and obviously, or maybe not so obviously, if a veteran does suffer from PTSD or TBI, typically, this may cause challenges with memory and communication at times. So again, the solution to this we have found is simply spending this sufficient and necessary time to get to know the veteran, understand their story and ensure that we obtain all the important information we need as best as that individual can communicate to us in order to properly advocate on their behalf. Another issue that we have seen is sometimes we do come across clients who have a preconceived idea or notion about their legal rights and this does seem to be based on misinformation that is communicated within the veteran community. So sometimes our clients have come to us a little skeptical at first of our advice and a little skeptical about what relief we might be able to obtain on their behalf. So it's another, it's another hurdle, we simply need to work through with this particular type of client. And then, and then finally, of course, there is always the challenge of evidence in the case and providing sufficient evidence and furtherance of our goal of obtaining legal relief for our veteran clients. We have found that sometimes the challenge results from the veterans reluctance if you will to document injury or complaints during active military service. And again, this seems to be very consistent with the message typically provided to the veteran while engaged in active military service to just soldier on and get over it if you will not complain and not document injuries or problems. So that is a, a definite challenge in a hurdle that, that we work to overcome in each one of these cases. And the best solution to that again is is taking the time and patience with the client, getting to know them establishing rapport and trust and building out the best possible case that we, that we can with the evidence available to us.
Julia: Thanks Melissa. And I mean, we certainly have been able to overcome some of these challenges, as you said, by developing the trust with the veterans that we serve. Um And I cannot agree more with you that the National Veterans Legal Services Program has been extremely helpful, thorough and excellent in our training and then their continued assistance while we work on these cases. So, so thank you to them. I want to now turn to Kathy who's volunteered in providing pro bono representation to some of these veterans. Kathy, what types of issues are returning disabled veterans often up unrepresented facing? Please tell us about the types of cases that you see. Reed Smith has handled especially in our Princeton office. Kathy: Thank you, Julia. Absolutely. So NVLSP has identified hundreds of cases where the VA has committed clear errors by assigning veterans less than the required disability rating and denying them the benefits that they are legally entitled to. Now, there are two main claims that we see. The first are claims that are based on PTSD due to military sexual trauma. Now, many veterans, many returning veterans who have experienced military sexual trauma are diagnosed with either PTSD, depression, anxiety or panic disorders to a degree so severe that medical discharge is required. These cases include any sexual activity where a service member is involved against his or her will. So for example, they may have been pressured into sexual activities with either threats of negative consequences for refusing to be sexually co-operative or with implied better treatment in exchange for sex. They may have been unable to consent to sexual activities. For example, if they were intoxicated, they also may have been physically forced into sexual activities or they may have been subjected to sexual harassment. Now, for these types of cases, we are advocating for the disabled veteran and we have to prove that the veteran's mental health condition was caused by military sexual trauma experienced during active duty. Now, the second type of claims that we see are claims for medical disability, retirement. And in these cases, a service member becomes so ill or injured that his or her ability to continue to serve in the military is called into question. And in these instances, we are seeking to obtain a medical retirement status for the veteran and a medical retirement status provides the same benefits given to service members who have served 20 or more years in the military. And these benefits include military health care for the veteran for his or her spouse and Children under the age of 18. And it also includes monthly disability benefits and a retired military ID card.
Julia: Thank you, Kathy for walking us through those two types of cases. And it really just shows us, you know, how important this work is. I would hope that others that are tuning into this podcast will consider taking on one of these cases. So let me ask Rochelle, Rochelle, are there other opportunities that the National Veteran Legal Services program has for attorneys or paralegals?
Rochelle: Absolutely. So we've been discussing uh military sexual trauma, which unfortunately, both men and women have experienced in the military and some cases, the issue is of a waiting for VA disability benefits. In other cases, it's getting them to a medical retirement where they got out of the military, maybe at the end of their term of service, but did not get appropriate benefits for the mental health condition that they had. Another area where we provide assistance is with discharge upgrades for people who did not get an honorable discharge. So for instance, a survivor of military sexual trauma may be more likely to be booted out of the military with an unfavorable characterization of discharge than the perpetrator. The survivor maybe reported what happened and then was retaliated against, oh, you're five minutes late. Oh, you didn't do things exactly as you were told and they get booted out with an unfavorable characterization of discharge or perhaps that mental health condition from being a survivor led them to do something they otherwise wouldn't do. Maybe they drank too much or had popped hot for marijuana that they were using to try and deal with their mental health condition. And then when they were positive they were sent out of the military. And if you get an other than honorable characterization, you're not eligible at all for any VA benefits and so not being eligible, they really need assistance with their characterization of discharge. And so we will help them to upgrade their characterization of discharge. And this involves a legal brief similar to the brief for medical retirement at the Department of defense, arguing that any misconduct was due to a mental health condition or because of military sexual trauma. Or we can sometimes argue that, you know, they made a mistake but they shouldn't be punished forever and denied benefits. Maybe the PTSD post traumatic stress supporter was in combat. Many veterans who survived combat are not the same. And maybe those veterans who experienced combat, self medicated with marijuana or alcohol or maybe did something else they shouldn't have done, but their discharge characterization should be upgraded. And so that's a legal brief that a lawyer would do. But as I mentioned earlier, we look through thousands of pages of records to decide whether to take a case and we have an opportunity that, that lawyers could do or paralegals could do, which does not involve writing a brief. And so it's a smaller task for a lawyer that doesn't want to take on a whole case of helping NVLSP by putting together a spreadsheet analyzing the medical files. And that is a project that we'd be happy to have assistance even from non lawyer where you go through the files. And you'll say for instance, just to give an example, on page 600 there was treatment for anxiety and depression. Oh And on page 300 it explains that the reason why this person was sent out of the military was because of marijuana use. And by pointing our screeners to specific pages and specific documents, it makes our process go much quicker. So that is another opportunity in the context of discharge upgrade to do a file review or to take on a whole matter and try to help get the characterization upgraded. Also on our department of Defense side, we do have cases for combat related special compensation and that is an additional tax free benefit for veterans whose injuries are related to combat. For instance, they suffered post traumatic stress disorder because of an IED blast or watching people get killed in combat. So that is an additional benefit that we assist veterans with. And then we also have some appellate work primarily at the Board of Veterans Appeals and these briefs, that's usually one or two issues coming back down from the court of appeals for veterans claims. And these are discrete issues on the VA side where we will tee up the issue and you write a brief and these are not VA claims that go on for years and years at the lower levels. It's just one level, a brief at the Board of Veterans appeals for someone who is interested in doing a brief that's on an appellate issue. So those are some other opportunities. And we would be thrilled to provide cases the way that we work is we do not send cases to multiple firms. If you let us know that you would like a case, for instance, you'd like a discharge upgrade case representation or you'd like a file review, then we will send you one and we may not have exactly the type of case you're looking for today, but we'll send you the next one and they come in on a rolling basis. So please do, let us know if you're interested in working with us. We would be thrilled to work with Reed Smith attorneys or paralegals on our cases. So, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to talk about the National Veterans Legal Services Program, Pro bono opportunities.
Julia: Thanks Rochelle for sharing, you know, other ways that attorneys and paralegals from law firms and corporations can get involved and, and for joining us today. Um And so now, you know, I want to ask Melissa and Kathy who are two very busy attorneys, why do you volunteer and spend your time to handle these matters? Why do you encourage because I know you will other lawyers to take these cases on and I'll start with Kathy. Kathy: Thanks Julia. So personally, I believe that giving back to the community is a big part of being a lawyer. As lawyers, we are fortunate enough to be able to give a voice to the voiceless and help create change and it shouldn't be taken for granted. So through our work with NVLSP, specifically, we are able to assist our veterans who have proudly and heroically served our community and we can help them receive the benefits that they deserve.
Melissa: Thanks Kathy. And let me, I agree with all of that wholeheartedly. Let me just add that personally, it, it really is a real privilege to represent our veterans and we do view our pro bono legal services as just a small token of our gratitude for those who put their lives on the line to defend our collective freedoms. I will say that the cases that we have been involved with as a team, co counseling with me and company through our Princeton New Jersey office have been primarily related to individuals who experience significant trauma during combat. These are decorated individuals, veterans who experience this trauma while serving our country and they have been denied their full medical benefits upon retirement. So the cases have real value, real need and we feel very personally invested. Once you see the file from NVLSP, I think you too will feel the need and the incredible feeling of representing these types of individuals. I will only add to that in our typical big firm practice at Reed Smith, we do generally represent large companies and big industry leaders. So to have the opportunity to help a real individual person who is, who is truly grateful for our efforts is frankly a a wonderful thing in your day to day practice. And we firmly believe that even if we do not always prevail and win our cases on behalf of our veteran clients, we know that the veterans are always grateful that we have at least given them a voice in what is truly a very complex process that they're facing. In other words, they shouldn't have to face it alone. So we're very happy to help and participate and continue to partner with NVLSP on behalf of our veterans.
Julia: Thanks Melissa. I, I also echo everything that you and Kathy said and why we partner with the National Veterans Legal Services Program. And with that, I want to thank Rochelle, Melissa and Kathy. Truly, thank you for championing the work that we can all do for our veterans in ensuring that every service member and veteran who we serve receives the best legal representation. And again, thank you to everyone for tuning in. Today.
Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com.
Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome.
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