Universal Design for Learning: Lindsay Jones

In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Lindsay Jones from CAST to discuss her work in inclusive education and Universal Design for Learning (UDL). Jones shares insights into how UDL transforms learning environments by focusing on student agency and creating flexible, supportive spaces for all learners. The conversation covers practical examples of UDL in action. Jones also reflects on the opportunities and challenges for UDL globally and her optimism about its impact on education.

The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.

Be encouraged.

Books Mentioned:
Radical Inclusion by Ori Brafman

Connect with us:
Baylor MA in School Leadership
EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership
Jon Eckert LinkedIn
Twitter: @eckertjon
Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl

 

Transcript:

Jon Eckert:

All right, today we're here with Lindsay Jones from CAST. She is one of the more interesting people I've met in the last couple of years, and so I wanted to just jump in. First of all, welcome, Lindsay.

Lindsay Jones:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Jon Eckert:

I want to start with a new question that I've never asked anybody, and I'm going to kick it off here, but I always think it's interesting since most of our listeners are educators to ground who you are in your first, last, best, worst experience in schools. So you spend a lot of time in schools and supporting schools. So what's your first memory, your last memory, your best memory, and your worst memory. So we'll do that by way of introduction. Take it away, Lindsay.

Lindsay Jones:

Wow. Okay, so you may have to help remind me of that order.

Jon Eckert:

Sure.

Lindsay Jones:

My first memory and a lot of my memories are going to center around my mom, who was an educator, a special educator for many, many years, special ed director. My first memory was when she came in and started... I was in a public school in Avon Lake, Ohio. I was in second grade, and she came in and started helping and teaching some extra content. And so it was a huge memory for me because she was there and it felt so special and I felt very special that my mom was there and I felt like I got a little viewpoint in the behind the scenes and that was exciting. So that was first.

Best was eighth grade. I had a phenomenal history teacher, and I can still remember the project that I wrote, and it makes me now think of Universal Design for Learning. I had a lot of choice in the project. I wrote it on the history of vigilantism in the United States. It was part of American history and going west, and it's amazing to me. I remember so vividly. So many parts of that I don't remember, but I remember the paper. I remember some of the materials that we did and seeing a play about it and all of the ways that that teacher really brought it to life. So let's see, first, best, worst, and that, and last?

Jon Eckert:

Yes. Yeah, that's what you have left, worst and last.

Lindsay Jones:

Okay. Worst, I'll say two things. Being bored a lot. Not engaging, that's worst. Just feeling like I'm just going through the paces. But a really formative worst one for me is my mother, when I was in third through fifth grade, also living in Ohio, she was teaching in Lakewood, Ohio, and I was going to school near there and she was teaching in a self-contained preschool special ed program in a public school. And I can remember I would go there before school every day after school every day. I met all the students in that room. I was probably in third grade when I started going there. There were different multi-ages. And I then went, I had a day off at my school and like many other kids, my mom let me hang around her school that day. And with a teacher in regular ed at that time, general ed. This would've been a long time ago, the early '80s.

And I can remember hanging around in a regular ed third grade classroom for the whole day and never seeing my mom's students, never seeing my mom, never seeing anyone with a disability. And that really struck me. Where are they? They are not here. They were not a part of that community. And I think that was a really formative experience that drives why I do the work I do today focused on inclusion. So that's probably also my worst because it wasn't ideal. It wasn't the way it should be, but it really, really formed me. So in some ways it's my best in many ways too, I guess. And then my last is law school. I went to law school. That was my last.

Jon Eckert:

That puts an imprint on you.

Lindsay Jones:

I practiced as an attorney for many years in Arizona. And my last schooling experience personally was law school. And it was a shock. It was like being dropped into an ice bath. But I loved it. Actually, I really learned a lot. It was such an interesting... The Socratic method itself has interesting parts to it. It can be really very engaging, but it's a challenging setting.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. Well, and I think one of the things that law school does that I've always admired is it teaches you how to think. And so I think there's some value in that. Now, the process of learning that can be pretty painful and you can get some tough professors who are maybe not that skilled at how to teach or how to make it accessible, but if you navigate through it, you come out with a set of skills that are pretty valuable. So it's pretty great. Well, hey, I actually enjoyed that because there's a lot of jumping off points there for what you do now. So you've already hit on what is normally my next question is what brought you to this work? So talk a little bit about what you do now, why you got out of the legal profession and into the work you're doing now based on some of the things that you experienced with your mother in schools and some of the other pieces that you've already discussed.

Lindsay Jones:

Yeah, so my mom, who, as I said, special ed teacher, local special ed director, all the things, special ed member of the Council for Exceptional Children, spoke, ended up working as a independent consultant, expert on ADHD, writing books and said to me always, "Don't become a teacher. Don't do it. Be a lawyer." And thinking now back on that, I think that was largely because she was a real activist as a person for inclusion, a real activist for social justice around disability and felt powerless sometimes with the limitations put on her position. So loved educators, was a model in my mind, a wonderful educator, a teacher's teacher, but just really felt like there were limits and she wanted to make a bigger difference.

So I actually ultimately, did go to law school and thought, "I'm never getting into education. I'm staying out of the family business. What in the world?" But when I got my first job at a law firm, I happened to join a firm in Phoenix, Arizona that represented most of the school districts in the state. And I had sat my uncle and my aunt, also special educators, lifelong. I'd sat at so many tables listening to like IEP, behavior implementation plan, all of it, that I knew it. I knew those things. I don't even know how I knew those things. I never took an education law class. So I started though, being drawn into that work. I represented public school districts and I focused a lot on special education matters. I took lots of cases all the way, and I've been in three day IEP meetings and that was a challenging... I did the first 504 due process hearing in the state of Arizona because they just didn't really have those before the 2000s.

And then I saw lots of the same problems over and over, and I thought, "Boy, I'd really like to work on these from a national level." And that drew me to go to work for the Council for Exceptional Children in DC where I live now. That is the organization of the professional learning association of special educators across the US. And that was a phenomenal experience. I worked there for four years. And then I decided to move to the National Center for Learning Disabilities, also working with parents and families, again, from a national role on legislation.

And then I was so excited to be able to join CAST where I work today, a nonprofit organization that invented something called Universal Design for Learning, UDL. And it's a way for me to influence policy and try to make a difference in the way our laws are created, but also to, in a more real, tangible way, we work with educators in classrooms around the world. And we work with authors to push the field forward, and we have research that we're conducting. So it's just a deeper way to be able to work on inclusion and those issues.

Jon Eckert:

Such a great introduction. And I do have to say the three-day IEP meeting, I don't think I've been in a three-hour one. And those are painful. So the individualized education plan, great idea, but when they get down on paper or try to get them to paper, it's tough. I also have to say that what you do with UDL is so transformative all around the world. And so I know we were at an international convening where they were discussing the 250 million kids worldwide that don't have access to schools and how many people knew UDL and knew you in so many different countries. It was pretty powerful to see the people coming up and talking to you about how that we do this well because at the Center, we're all about supporting education leaders so that they can serve each student well. And that feels like the whole mission of UDL.

How do we reach each kid? Not all kids, but each kid, because each kid comes to the learning differently. And that's the beauty of education I've been in for 29 years. I did not avoid education, but I didn't have a parent who was an educator. So who knows what would've happened if that would've been the... And I would say our work is infinitely interesting and always challenging because the only thing we know when we're standing in a classroom with a bunch of students is we're the only one that learns the way we do. And so that's where UDL is so powerful because it gives you principles for how to think through it. And you're vigilante project that you did in eighth grade had so many of the hallmarks of UDL. So I'd love for you to just dig a little bit deeper into some of the opportunities and challenges you see right now for UDL around the world and maybe particularly the United States as well, if you want to dive down there.

Lindsay Jones:

Sure. I would say around the world, the number one challenge really is some basic access, as you would know better than I do, Jon, but in terms of at the core of UDL is assistive technology that's started by nine Harvard neuroscientists, working with nine students with really significant cognitive disabilities and saying, "Maybe tech and being flexible... Maybe the person isn't broken, maybe it's the system." And in fact, they proved that's right. And now that system and some of the drawbacks of the system for people in different places around the world is probably the biggest challenge. The biggest opportunity though, I think especially in the United States right now is EdTech is throughout schools. It's overwhelming. It's almost too much in schools, but it does that same principle of it gives us more of an inherent understanding that we all use it differently. The way I use my iPhone or whatever my device is, is probably different than yours, and you don't judge me for that. I don't judge you. I don't even know how... And so that is a freeing thing that I think is a big opportunity.

And UDL, it's a design thinking framework. It just helps you think, "How can I find barriers to leaning that I don't see?" And I think that tech is a way to help us make environments more flexible. It's not the only way, we don't need it, but it can make that environment more flexible and it can also reduce the stigma of difference. The stigma that I saw when I felt my mother's class was down a dark hall. They weren't included. They were very separate. Tech, we're all using it. And that's, I think, a great opportunity for us to think about universal design for learning and how we can create those environments that are flexible and dynamic and individualized.

Jon Eckert:

And I love the connection to design thinking because at the end of the day, that's using technology to humanize interaction. It's not replacing the human, it's accentuating the human connection we can make through it as we design solutions that move us all further forward. And that has to be individualized. So I still think, and I think this is potentially something that's really prevalent in US schools, people believe that struggle is a sign of weakness where in fact, struggle is part of learning. And learning is productive struggle. So everybody needs different tools to help them struggle well. And so I think particularly coming out of Covid, we've had this shift in that well-being is freedom from struggle, and that can't be the case. And what I love about UDL is it gets kids into that zone of proximal development where, here's what I can do on my own, here's what I can do with some assistive technology, here's what I can do with some choice, here's what I can do with a more advanced peer.

There's all these places where there are these supports that come in that humanize the interaction. So that's where I'm most hopeful about UDL and where I see things going because we have more tools than we ever have. Now, if we just use those tools in this cast a wide net, throw at every kid, hopefully we catch every kid and you know kids are going to fall through the net, that's a problem. But where we have educators who are deployed with these tools to meet kids' needs, who are then allowing kids' choice, allowing kids opportunities to collaborate and making sure each kid is able to contribute, that's where I see things being hopeful. Do you have any of those kinds of stories where you're like, "Yeah, here I've seen UDL really make a difference in the lives of kids." Is there anything that jumps to mind?

Lindsay Jones:

Absolutely, and that's exactly what it is. So we just updated our guideline. Guidelines are a tool we use to help people implement it. There's just things to prompt your thinking about as design your environment. We updated them and the focus now is agency, learner agency. It's always been about what you just described. We know the kids are leaving school. And right now today, you and I probably are having to learn more about artificial intelligence than we ever... Maybe you knew a lot. I know nothing. So now I'm completely learning about it and I'm relying on all the ways I learned how to learn. And that is what we're trying to make sure those kids are learning so that when they leave, they know, "Oh, I feel confident. I may not know it. I'm going to struggle, but here's what I can do to learn it." That's the goal. That's learner agency.

And so what I would say, there's a lot of great examples of that around, but one of the ones that I think really just resonates for me, there's a school here in the District of Columbia that we've been working with. They have a model UDL demonstration classroom, which they're showing to others, and they're bringing UDL throughout that school and hopefully through the other schools in the District of Columbia schools. And when you go in, there's a part of you, I think... I'm a parent. I'm not a teacher, as you know, I'm a parent though. And there's a part of me that I will say, I was like, "We're just going to let fifth graders make choices about what they want? I've had a fifth grader. That seems scary to me. I'm not sure. What is this going to look like?"

And I went into this fifth grade classroom, and it is so interesting to see what and how that's really intentionally designed by those educators. Several different areas are happening in the room. And one of the things that stood out to me, Jon, is those kids in that room know if they're asked a question... I watched an interaction between a teacher and a student where the teacher asked the student a question about the material, and the student kept trying to answer it and was struggling. The teacher was not giving the answer. And then finally the student said, "Oh, I'm going to go to my resources. I'm going to go get... And they walked over to several different resources they had available, got the answer, came back so proud, so confident.

And it was so painful for those moments of watching that child struggle, that teachers maybe call it "wait time." It is painful to sit there and watch that. You want to just say, "Lincoln, it's Abe Lincoln." But my God, when I saw that student be really actualized, find something, come back. And that is a very micro way of talking about what was a really complex interaction with some really skilled educators and just incredible kids, but it wasn't out of the norm, and it did more than one thing at once. It taught the student the answer, and it made that student engaged in a way of like, "I am proud. I did this." And that's good. We need that because it won't always be easy, so you got to draw on something. So yeah, I think there's a lot of examples like that that are exciting and empowering.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, that's great. I love that example. And I love the idea that it's in a model classroom because I think for educators, they need to be able to see it happening. And we need educators who are doing this well to be able to spread their expertise. And so in our research, we find one of the most powerful predictors of how a school will improve is whether or not a lot of peer observation's happening. It's not evaluation or judgment, but it's learning from other educators who are doing this hard work and letting kids, requiring kids, giving them the opportunity to struggle because there's so much more joy in finding out it's Abraham Lincoln when you go with your own agency and find those in the sources than having someone else just tell you the answer. And that just breeds learned helplessness. Just like, "Hey, somebody's going to tell me anyway, so why would I have any agency in the first place?"

The other thing I wanted to say, I teach a class in a half an hour. And so anytime I go in, even to my undergrad or grad classes that I'm teaching, when I am the least well prepared, I lecture. When I am the best prepared, it's this interactive engagement where student agency is part of it, and there's meaning. And I always pull in student responses from the night before. I always read the responses that come in by 10:00 PM and I put those in and I let that direct the class. But that takes a lot of time. And so it's just, if somehow that time hasn't been set aside, the class just isn't as good. I can manage it. I can control it. I did this as a fifth grade teacher, as a seventh grade science teacher. You can control it, but that's sometimes by boring kids into submission, which is what you mentioned. I mean, just because a class is quiet doesn't mean any learning's happening. And so that's not the goal.

Now, obviously a class that's in chaos where kids aren't safe and all that, but those baselines have to be set up. But in that model classroom, I'm sure so much work has gone into how to help students make good choices, that I would 100% trust those kids to make good choices. And when they're not, you just say, "Hey, we're outside the parameters we set. Now, move back in". Is that an accurate read of that classroom or other model classrooms you see?

Lindsay Jones:

Yes. And I think your critical point is it's not about vertigo of possibility to students. It's about scaffolding. You start to make choices. You have a smaller number. What are they? You're learning about them, you're reflecting on them. I think that's really critical. You said that and you talked about it, and I just wanted to pull it out because yeah, that's right. That's right.

Jon Eckert:

I love that.

Lindsay Jones:

That classroom was fun. It was amazing. Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. I love that. I never heard that. I've never heard that phrase vertigo of possibility. But yes, that sounds like anarchy, what we want. And I think kids feel safer where they know where the boundaries are, and then they know how to move, and then they scaffold and they build, and then they can do amazing stuff. And that's when teaching gets really fun because it's not about the teacher anymore, it's about the learner. And we're all learning together. So I always like to end with a lightning round. So I know you're super busy, so if you've taken time to read a book that you would recommend, it's got to be pretty good because busy people don't just read beach reads all the time. So is there a great book that you would recommend? It could be education related or not, but is there anything you've read in the last year that you would recommend to those listening?

Lindsay Jones:

It is. And it's called Radical Inclusion. And yeah, have you read it?

Jon Eckert:

I've heard of it. I have not read it yet, but it's been recommended to me already, but go ahead.

Lindsay Jones:

It's so interesting, and I'm so sorry, I have to follow up with the name of the author. He's an education minister in Sierra Leone.

Jon Eckert:

Wow.

Lindsay Jones:

And it is phenomenal. It is super interesting. It is well written. It's thought provoking. Yeah, he spoke actually, we saw-

Jon Eckert:

I was going to say he was at the convening. Yeah, he was on a panel. Yeah, so his name is Ori Brafman.

Lindsay Jones:

Thank you, yes.

Jon Eckert:

And it's What the Post-9/11 World Should Have Taught Us About Leadership. It came out in 2018. Is that it?

Lindsay Jones:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah?

Lindsay Jones:

Radical Inclusion. And it's about the way they're reframing in Sierra Leone, including individual... They're starting with everything in terms of radical inclusion, voting, everything.

Jon Eckert:

I love that.

Lindsay Jones:

People with disabilities and a barrier-free environments.

Jon Eckert:

Wow. That's beautiful. All right, so then what is the worst piece of advice you've ever given or received in your work?

Lindsay Jones:

Oh, my God, so many.

Jon Eckert:

I'm sorry.

Lindsay Jones:

I know, it's terrible. But I actually think one of the worst pieces of advice that I was ever given was that you could not be a parent and a full-time attorney.

Jon Eckert:

Oh, wow.

Lindsay Jones:

Or a full-time anything.

Jon Eckert:

Wow.

Lindsay Jones:

And that has not proven to be true. And it was a really bad piece of advice because it made me worry for years. And it was silly that I did that, so.

Jon Eckert:

Wow. All right, that's helpful. That's a helpful reframe of bad advice. What's the best piece of advice you've either given or received?

Lindsay Jones:

A wonderful attorney I worked with, the best piece of advice was, "Be bold." This amazing guy, Dick Siegel. And then my other favorite one is a Matisse quote, Henry Matisse the painter. I have it on my board over here. "Don't wait for inspiration. It comes while working."

Jon Eckert:

Well said. I love that. I did not know that Matisse quote, but that's a great add and obviously, you got to be bold to do the work, so those two reminders go well together. All right, so as we wrap up, what's your most hopeful perspective on where we're heading in education makes you most optimistic?

Lindsay Jones:

I am incredibly optimistic about inclusive education. I meet people every single day who want to make that happen. And they see, when they use Universal Design for Learning or whatever method they're using to make learning more inclusive, they get to something you just referred to, which I call the magic moments. They come up to me and tell me, "Oh, my God, this happened. I saw learning. I remembered why I went into teaching." That experience of watching someone really learn, learning with them, that I am so lucky because so many people share those types of things with me. And it just means I feel like I'm so hopeful I want to tell everyone about this and help them to be using it.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, what a beautiful example. I think it's what gets educators up every morning. It's not the paycheck. It's going to be those magic moments. And once you've had a couple, they're addictive. You keep coming back for more. And that's a beautiful way to wrap up. Well, Lindsay, thank you for the great work you do at CAST, for UDL, for your leadership and just taking the time to be with us.

Lindsay Jones:

Yeah, thank you so much.