7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.

 

7. Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Philippians 2:1-11 “If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

 

Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents. 

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website

Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:

Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women

The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex

Restoring the Pleasure

The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment

Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today 

Information on Pelvic Pain 

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

[00:00:09] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:26] <music>

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Check them out today at MidwestShelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. We'll make sure to put a link in our show notes. Thanks again for the sponsorship.

If you're interested in sponsoring The Savvy Sauce, we would love to hear from you. Make sure you reach out to us. You can email us at info@thesavvysauce.com. 

This episode is intended for currently married, healthy couples. [00:01:21] If you've had trauma in the past and have not pursued healing, our hope is that you would reach out for help today. It is unlikely that you can do this healing alone.

We recommend you connect with a Christian counselor in your area, ideally with a specialization in Christian sex therapy. Healing is possible.

I also want you to be forewarned that this topic is not suitable for little ears. 

I'm so excited for our guest today. We get to host Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. The Penners are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people to embrace sex as good and of God. Today we discuss differing desires in marriage and practical tips to enhance your sexual intimacy. 

Welcome, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner.

Dr. Clifford Penner: We're delighted to be here. We're just excited to see where this can go. 

Joyce Penner: Yes. 

Laura Dugger: Well, let's just dive right in. For anyone who doesn't know you yet, could you give us some background into who both of you are and what you do? [00:02:22]

Joyce Penner: Well, we were both raised as Mennonites, so the topic that we're about to talk about was not talked about in our homes. We both were in our separate professions when Cliff was asked to teach a class to new moms about teaching your kids about sex. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: And those professions were that I was a clinical psychologist, I had gotten my doctorate in that area, and Joyce was a nursing professor at California State University. 

So what happened was that I was asked to teach this class of women about talking to your kids about sex, and then afterwards a couple of the women asked if I would come and teach a group of 60 women about sexual adjustment marriage, and I said: "Well, I really don't know much about that." And they said, "No, would like you to come teach us." So since Joyce was a nursing professor, I prevailed upon her and we got... 

Joyce Penner: And because you were going to be teaching 60 women-

Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, that's true. [00:03:22] 

Joyce Penner: He said, "I'm not going to go teach 60 women about sex, which we know nothing about from a professional perspective." 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So we studied like crazy and did a 10-week course on sexual adjustment in marriage. At the last three weeks, the women asked if they could bring their husbands. Then what happened was that we got so much positive response to it and started getting asked to teach at other places. 

So then we finally went and got trained as sexual therapists, and this was a process of the next year or two, because people started asking to come to us for sexual therapy, and we said we're not sexual therapists.

Joyce Penner: But every step of the way we were led into this. It wasn't something we ever decided we were going to do. But it's one of those experiences, we believe, when doors are open and you allow God to lead you, He uses you in mighty ways. And that's certainly been true for us. [00:04:21] Now, at this stage of our lives, we're mainly training other professionals, other sexual therapists. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So we often teach seminars to psychologists, marriage and family counselors, pastors, who will then use the material that we bring to help with the people that they're dealing with who have sexual issues. That's all over the world that we get to do that.

Joyce Penner: Lots of fun. 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. Clearly, you two are great at it, so we really appreciate your contribution. Let's just lay the spiritual foundation for this topic first. Do you have any specific scripture that's very precious to you in this area?

Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, probably the two main passages that are at the core of what the New Testament teaches about sexuality are 1 Corinthians 7, the first 11 verses, where it says, "Is it a good thing to have sexual relations?" [00:05:22] And that the church at Corinth is asking this, and then Paul answers, "Of course it's a good thing, but between a husband and wife." And then he goes on and instructs, "Husbands, be this way with your wives, wives, be this way with your husbands." And then it's the same passage in Ephesians 5.

Joyce Penner: That whole passage that starts with "submit to one another", but then goes on and talks about the wife's role and much more specifically the husband's role.

The husband is to love his wife like Christ loves the church. And in doing that, he's really doing himself a favor because they're already one in Christ. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: We have to ask the question, well, how would he be doing himself a favor if he loves his wife that way? 

Joyce Penner: Like Christ loved the church. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Like Christ loved the church. The answer is that when a woman feels cherished and adored and admired, like Paul talks about in Ephesians 5, that's what turns her on. [00:06:23] And when she's turned on, then it makes him happy. That's why he's really doing himself a favor when he loves her that way. 

Joyce Penner: And then we also ask, well, how did Christ love the church? And we go to Philippians 2, the passage that says that Christ gave up His rights. And men will often say, "But don't we have the right to sex?" Yes. But when that right is pursued rather than released, it puts pressure on the woman. And when the woman feels pressure, she's not likely to feel good about herself and not likely to want sex, and then he feels badly about himself when she doesn't. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So, to make it very simple, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, and Philippians 2:1-11, which says, "Let this mind be in you, which is also in Christ Jesus." 

Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. Moving on to the physical aspects, how are sleep and diet, and exercise related to an enjoyable sex life? [00:07:28] 

Joyce Penner: We talk about this in quite a bit of detail in our book, Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and talk about from the woman's perspective. But it's also true for men. 

For women, we teach them how to listen to their bodies. And when they listen to their bodies they will be able to get with their own sexuality and share it with their husband. But because sex is not only a spiritual non-relational experience, it is a physical event, and so when we're well-rested, when we're healthy, when our bodies are nurtured in the right way and we exercise, it's going to enhance our sex life. 

Laura Dugger: That's great. And for anyone who's listening today, do you have maybe one first practical step they can take to move in the right direction? 

Dr. Clifford Penner: We would say, first of all, you have to get enough sleep. [00:08:25] People who aren't getting enough sleep are not going to have the energy to be sexual with each other. 

Joyce Penner: And in terms of one suggestion, nutritionally, we would say change one eating pattern. And the one we would recommend is to decrease or eliminate empty carbohydrates. In other words, sugars, foods that don't have much nutrition and are only filling us with calories. 

Laura Dugger: For somebody who's thinking in their head, kind of pushing back "sure, I want to get more sleep, how can I actually do that?" what else would you say to convince them of the importance of that step? 

Joyce Penner: Well, one thing I learned early on when I went back to work when our oldest daughter was six weeks old, is I learned to take power naps. That was critical to my functioning as a mom, a professional, and a wife. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So, Joyce thinks of that not as an indulgence, but actually- [00:09:29] 

Joyce Penner: As a gift.

Dr. Clifford Penner: ...as a gift to the rest of us. And I would have to agree with that.

Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so freeing to hear you say that. That's great because a lot of people might be struggling with guilt as well. And I feel like you just addressed that. 

Joyce Penner: And I just set the timer for 30 or 25 minutes and often wake up before that. But sometimes even 20 minutes is plenty just to take that edge off, and yet it's so natural. Especially with moms with young children, when they finally get their kids down for a nap, they think they've got to get all the tasks done in the house. 

But I find if I free myself to go take that nap, even now when I don't have kids around, I'm so much more effective and get much more done more quickly if I take that 20 minutes. I make up that 20 minutes really quickly by the difference in the energy I have. 

Laura Dugger: That makes a lot of sense. [00:10:26] So you've talked about the wife's part. Let's use that same example. Do you have any practical tips or suggestions for the husband to help maybe their wife get more sleep? 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, one of the things that we always encourage the husband is that since she's often been, when they're kids, often been home all day with the kids, anything that he can specifically do to take over some part of that task once he gets home and he might say, well, I've been working all day too. But it's a whole different kind of stress that a woman has to deal with at home. 

So we would always encourage him for example to let her take a bubble bath while he reads the kids their nighttime story or whatever.

Joyce Penner: But it could be in today's world probably both of them may be working. Or it may be that he's the stay-at-home dad and she's out working. Each couple has to kind of negotiate for themselves what's going to work in their situation. [00:11:26] 

For some women, maybe the nap isn't it? Maybe it's something else that gets her energized. But figuring that out and listening to yourself and negotiating it rather than just assuming you have to be tired and exhausted because you have kids and are working.

Laura Dugger: Just one more follow-up question while we're still on this story. Let's flip it to see what a wife and husband can do to make sure that the husband now gets the sleep because I loved your practical examples. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, I don't know that the wife can see to it that the husband gets more sleep. For most men, it is going to be a reduction of their electronic use or video games or television or sports events or whatever. Those decisions can't get made by the wife, but need to get made by the husband himself. [00:12:21] And that is usually what is going to make it more possible for the man to get more sleep.

Joyce Penner: And basically, probably that's more true for actually both, that it is each of our responsibility to work that out and the other spouse affirming and supporting that decision.

Laura Dugger: I love that. The spouses know that they can be the encourager, or they're the ones that need more sleep, they can take their own ownership. 

Joyce Penner: Right. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Exactly. 

Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, your formula for intimacy came from observation, and then later it was affirmed by brain and sex research. So could you elaborate on that formula and all the benefits? 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, the formula is divided into four categories, what we do in a 15-minute-a-day period, and then once a week, once a quarter, and once a year. Mainly, we would want to talk about the 15 minutes a day. [00:13:22] So let's explain that first. 

Joyce Penner: That's the most important part. The others are lovely if couples can do it, but the 15 minutes a day is what will make the most difference. And it's very prescriptive. What we mean by that is it isn't just something you sort of do, it really makes... the research in terms of the benefit is that it has to happen in the order prescribed and at least the minimum amount of time prescribed. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: And we think of it as literally 15 minutes a day. And part of the reason we do that is that most men fear getting into a conversation with a woman because it may never end. So we think if couples can know that it's just going to be exactly 15 minutes, maybe they even set a timer, then the man will be much more willing to do that. 

Joyce Penner: And if couples tend to drift into arguments when they talk, it's another reason to limit the time.  [00:14:27] According to the brain research, they don't need more time to make this effective. But it starts with connecting emotionally. And in that emotional connection, looking into each other's eyes. Because eye-to-eye contact triggers oxytocin. The brain secretes oxytocin as a result of eye-to-eye contact. 

It's the same reason it's important for parents to look into their children's and infants' eyes to build that oxytocin, which is the trust hormone. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So in that few minutes of conversation, this is not about figuring out who's going to pick up the groceries or go to the dry cleaners. This is some relational communication, either an affirmation about the other person, sharing a thought that you've had, a reaction. It's not the time to schedule, nor is it the time to settle differences. This is just a connecting time for maybe three to five minutes. [00:15:23] 

Joyce Penner: And just positive thoughts and feelings. It can be an affirmation of the other, as Cliff mentioned, but could also just be if you had some kind of a positive goal that arrived, or you had it in your head, or that you dreamt of something that you wanted to share, or you anticipate a positive time, or experience how God was working in your life that day. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing is this kind of relational, looking in each other's eyes communication. Then the next thing is some kind of a spiritual connection. 

Joyce Penner: And that depends on where the person is coming from spiritually. It could be that they're just sharing inspirational reading, that they have a flip calendar with a thought for the day or a Bible verse for the day, or that they join in prayer together. Wherever the couple is in that process. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: And some couples will be very uncomfortable being very direct about that, others for that will be more natural, and maybe they can grow into it. [00:16:23] 

Joyce Penner: And then finally, this is the third step then, is to connect physically. Stand up and give each other front to front full body hug for 20 seconds. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: This is an interesting thing. The research has shown that when a couple hugs for 20 seconds or more, it does also raise the oxytocin level, the bonding hormone that brings two people closer to one another emotionally, relationally and this is not about getting turned on sexually that may happen sometimes but this is-

Joyce Penner: That's an important thing to say. Many times women resist the physical connection because it leads to a passionate kiss. And this is a vital part of the formula for intimacy, the daily part. But women have resisted that because they're afraid, or men have too, they're afraid they're going to get aroused, or that their husband's going to get aroused. [00:17:23] And if they get aroused, they have this idea that arousal has to lead to a sexual experience. And that just is not a reality. 

In fact, when we stop hugging and kissing because we think it has to lead to a sexual experience, then we have fewer sexual experiences because we don't keep the pilot light on and we start shutting down on our sexuality. So let yourselves get aroused if it happens, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it leads to sex. It has to do with connecting, enjoying, delighting in your body, getting those little sensations. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Just to say that very simply, arousal does not mean it has to lead to a sexual intercourse experience. 

Joyce Penner: Then after the 22nd hug, five to thirty seconds of passionate kissing without leading to sex. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Now let's give a little background there. [00:18:21] Before couples are married, are early in their marriage, there's often a lot of passionate kissing. But as time goes on, maybe when children come or life gets busy or people are going to school or whatever they're doing, the pattern changes. 

The stereotype is, and it could be the reverse of this, but the stereotype is the husband comes up and wants to give his wife a kiss and she thinks to herself, "Oh, do I wanna have sex tonight? I'm not sure. I better not leave him on." And so she gives him the cheek rather than her lips. And it's a one-second event, that is a peck, which then in fact doesn't allow for that passion to be there. 

So it is our belief and our finding that daily passionate kissing is one of the most important things for a couple to do not because it's gonna lead to sex, just because it triggers the dopamine in the brain which is the excitement hormone. And this will then help, as Joyce said earlier, keep that pilot light on. [00:19:27] 

Laura Dugger: That is fascinating and something that people could take and start today. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: They can start today. And usually it's best if a couple decides, you know, the best time for us to have our 15 minutes of connecting a day, we call 15 minutes of intimacy, not physical sexual intimacy, but just total emotional intimacy that does include some physical, but not intercourse, it's best if you decide on when that's going to be, whether it's right when the husband gets home, or in the morning before the kids get up, or when the kids are all down, whatever it may be. 

Joyce Penner: Or when they both get home from work, or when she gets home, however, their system is. Or often, it can be the thing they do before they go to bed. It's different for everybody. Maybe when they have dinner. And they don't have to be in private. The kids can be around. In fact, it's okay for the kids to see that they have this kind of intimacy and connection with each other. [00:20:24] 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So the formula for intimacy starts with that 15 minutes a day. Then we also encourage one date night a week and that could lead to sex or not. And hopefully it would include a half a day or a day every quarter that you devote to your marriage. 

Then usually it's best if a couple can enjoy some kind of a marriage retreat or retreat focused on sex, or something that will build their intimacy. So it's 15 minutes a day, one date night a week, one day a quarter, and one weekend a year. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: That's great. And just a few follow-up questions with some of those. You had mentioned even in those 15 minutes of intimate connection time, the first few minutes where you're focused with eye contact. If conflict does arise and the spouses, let's say, have different ways they like to engage in conflict, what do you recommend as a healthy approach if it starts escalating in those few minutes? [00:21:25] 

Joyce Penner: They stop right away. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: For that particular event and say, Let's schedule to talk about this another time away from here, because this is our connecting time, not our dealing with conflict time. So the kids are going to be down by eight o'clock tonight. Why don't we plan that at 8:30 we'll deal with this? But right now we're just talking about our intimacy. 

Joyce Penner: And we're just talking about delighting in each other and enjoying ourselves and sharing what's positive in our lives. And if we keep it positive, it's not likely to lead to conflict. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: But this time should always be thought of as a positive connecting time. And then scheduled to deal with the conflict away from that event. 

Laura Dugger: Which is so great because then what a great thing to look forward to every day. I do wonder, does it look different if you have clients that have a lot of trauma in their past, maybe sexual abuse or sexual trauma related to the physical part of this intimate formula? [00:22:30] 

Joyce Penner: This formula really helps with that. The only part that may be an issue and we do deal with if one or the other has not been able to kiss ever in their relationship because kissing was a part of being violated. Then that person should always lead the kissing so they're never kissed. 

But if I was the one traumatized, let's say my grandfather always kissed me and it was part of his abusing me—Didn't happen. I'm just saying hypothetically—then it would be important that Cliff not kiss me, but rather I do the kissing. And maybe it only starts with a peck, and then I gradually move to a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And maybe I stay at a very cautious level for quite some time, but practice everything else in the formula until kissing becomes safe. 

And this is why it's so important that the 20-second hug and the eye-to-eye contact happens before any attempt at kissing. [00:23:40] Many times husbands or sometimes the wife will want to skip the other two steps and just do the kissing. That doesn't tend to work as effectively. 

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful. Thank you for clarifying. You've also taught that sex is only able to be great when it's good for both. Could you just elaborate on that principle? 

Joyce Penner: We believe this is biblical, first of all, as we talked about the 1 Corinthians 7 passage that's such a key teaching New Testament passage and the Ephesians 5:1. The Ephesians 5 one starts with, submit yourselves one to another. The 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 talks about mutuality, that I'm to give myself to my husband, my husband's to give himself to me, and that it's supposed to be as good for one as it is for the other. That it is a mutual. It's always an equal kind of thing. [00:24:43] It isn't that one submits and the other dominates.

Dr. Clifford Penner: This is an important thing. There can be some couples or individuals who come with the idea that sex is really for the man and the woman is providing it. We see that as both a very destructive way of thinking and also a very unbiblical way of thinking. 

So that is why since it is a relational event it needs to be as good for one as it is for the other if it's going to last for a lifetime. This is one of the main reasons why it is good from early on to practice it always be mutual. 

If it's only for the benefit of one or primarily for the benefit of one, over time the couple will be having less and less sex because one of them isn't enjoying it. So years down the road, there will not be nearly as much activity nor as much fun with the activity. [00:25:44] So that's absolutely essential. If you're gonna have a lifetime of sexual enjoyment it has to be mutual. 

Laura Dugger: Let's approach it from both genders then. What encouragement do you have for the husband that experiences lower sexual desire than his wife? 

Joyce Penner: So if the husband has a lower desire, what we find is that the couple doesn't have sexual contact, whereas when the wife… 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Or at least not as often. 

Joyce Penner: Not as often. Whereas when the wife has lower desire, the couple may still be having sex regularly. And we aren't sure whether that's because of cultural teaching or whether that's physical, because the husband does need to have a response in order to move forward. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: He has to be able to get aroused, whereas a woman can go along with the sexual experience without arousal. 

Joyce Penner: And can be more passive. [00:26:43] So it's hard to know why. But our finding is that when the man lacks desire a couple doesn't have sex, and when the woman lacks desire the couple may be having sex regularly. 

Mainly what would be important would be that they talk about the difference because sometimes it isn't as extreme as they think it is. Sometimes if the man lacks desire, there's a real reason for it, and that needs to be determined just as it would if the woman lacks desire. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Let's give some possible reasons. It could be that the man is very low in testosterone since testosterone is the hormone that drives sexual desire. So there could be a physical reason. 

Joyce Penner: There could also be a relational reason. For some men, if there's been conflict that really pushes them away sexually. For other men, they're using up all their energy at work or creating a business or their entrepreneurial-ness. For other men, it could be that they're substituting intimacy with the wife for pornography or other means of sexual outlets. [00:27:51] 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So if a man has lack of desire, it could be because he's meeting his physical need by looking at porn and then stimulating himself. It could be that he has same-sex attraction. So even though you wanted to be married to a woman and may even say that he loves her and wants to stay with her but he is drawn to men rather than to women. 

So there's a variety of reasons why a man might have low interest and it would be important to get at that. Now, often a man may not even know it or may not want to admit it. And so that may be a time where they get some professional help or read a book like our book, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. 

Joyce Penner: But we should talk about it. Sometimes the man lacks desire, but if the woman initiates, they're fine. He's happy to go along with it. but the woman hasn't felt comfortable initiating. So this is why there's not a real clear one answer to desire issues, whether it's the woman that lacks desire or the man that lacks desire. [00:29:00]

The main thing is nagging and pursuing will never work. Pursuing in a negative sense, where it feels like a demand. You know, checking. Do you want it today? Is this a good time? Or... 

Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's true on both sides. 

Joyce Penner: Yeah, both sides. Or complaining. You never want sex. I'm so frustrated. Complaining, bugging, nagging will never increase your sex life. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: It drives a person away. We should switch sides now and say and what if the woman has less interest and how do we understand that?

Joyce Penner: This is where men and women are different. Women tend to want to have sex and open up sexually when they feel loved and adored, when they feel good about themselves. Men tend to desire and want sex when they feel attracted to the wife, when they see her, that visual aspect. And when she's turned on, that's what turns them on. [00:29:58] A turned-on woman turns on a man, but a turned-on man is not necessarily a turn-on for a woman. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: So let's just be really clear what we're trying to say here. When the man experiences the woman as in touch with her sexuality and desirous of it and can get aroused in the experience and responsive, then that is likely to make the man move toward her and be interested in her. 

So the best thing that a woman can do to raise her desire is to really be in touch with her sexuality. And the way the man helps that is by his love and care and affirmation and adoration of her. 

Joyce Penner: Not his pursuit. 

Laura Dugger: Could you give a few examples of that when you say she needs to be in touch with her sexuality and the husband can help that by adoring her and affirming her? Could you go a little bit further and share what you mean? 

Dr. Clifford Penner: First thing I was going to say is keep your feet warm and wear socks. [00:31:00] 

Joyce Penner: That may not make sense.

Dr. Clifford Penner: I know. Explain what I mean. 

Joyce Penner: Sure. The research has shown that when women's feet are warm, they're more likely to be sexually responsive. So I always tease women, just, you know, tell them you need a foot rub. And many women love that. So it's fun. 

That's what the book Enjoy! is all about, The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women. It teaches the woman how to do that. So to say that in a sentence is pretty difficult. 

But basically, for the woman, if she's listening to the benefits to her own sexual desire and need, and some women listening will say, I'm not aware of any, as far as I'm concerned, sex could... you know, I never have to have sex again in my life. But there's usually reasons for that, either that she's feeling too much pressure and it's been a demand and it's never been for her, or she's never been responsive. Those are usually the reasons a woman would not want sex or fight it. [00:32:00] 

But when she starts to listen to her body and those little tingles and what she needs and feels good about herself, that will make a difference. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: We've been married almost 55 years from now and known each other 59 years, and I've been adoring of Joyce from day one. 

Joyce Penner: More adoring of me than I felt about myself. I didn't come with a good self-esteem. It was his affirmation of me that I first actually fought because I thought it was just a come on and wasn't true. And I fought him on it. But as it began to soak in, and I began to feel better about myself, it really made a difference. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Now, backing up a little bit, though, in answer to your question about how does a woman listen to her body, the first thing that has to happen is that a woman has to believe that sex is as much for her as it is for the man. She has to believe that she is worthy of being a sexual person and being sexually aroused and responsive. [00:33:03]

Joyce Penner: And that God designed her that way. God didn't design that it was just the man that was sexual and it was just for him. God designed us as women as sexual persons, with all of that intensity built into who we are. And if we haven't experienced it, it's usually a barrier that's there. 

Even as all of mankind was designed to seek God and to desire union and oneness with Him, sin has interrupted that in our world so that many don't have the felt need for God. Likewise, each of us is designed for that sexual desire. And yet there may be hurts and things that have happened in our lives that block that desire or physical things that get in the way of feeling that.

Dr. Clifford Penner: Now, if there is an issue like difficulty having an orgasm and she doesn't have an orgasm, likely over time she is going to lose interest because for her there is no point in getting aroused if it can't culminate in a release. [00:34:14] Because an orgasm is a reflex response to the arousal that happens and it is... Well, we compare it to a sneeze. It's like that build up and then the Achoo, which is true when we sneeze but in the sexual experience there's the buildup and then there's a release so we often kiddingly say an orgasm is really just a pelvic sneeze.

Joyce Penner: But when you're not getting that release and you end up frustrated, then you're going to avoid the sexual experience. So when a couple comes to us saying she lacks desire, we always have to sort out what the cause is. And if it's because she's never had a sexual response, then we don't work on it as a desire issue, we help her learn how to let go orgasmically.

Dr. Clifford Penner: And it is our belief that we were all created as sexual beings men and women and that we were all designed for arousal and release: stimulation and orgasm. [00:35:19] And that when that isn't happening that really limits the delight of the experience in the fulfillment and over time would cause a lack of desire for it. 

Laura Dugger: Okay, so if someone's hearing this for the first time and they've never reached orgasm before, you're telling them that there's hope. Can you explain more of the process for them to reach that? 

Joyce Penner: To reach orgasm? Are you talking particularly for women? 

Laura Dugger: Yes.

Joyce Penner: Okay. We would change your question from "reach" to "allow". We're glad you asked it that way because most women are trying to reach orgasm, and their trying to reach orgasm actually interferes with it happening. 

So what we change the focus from trying to achieve something as a goal to learning to ride the waves and enjoy the process. [00:36:17] Because so many times women who aren't orgasmic aren't because they're uncomfortable with the stimulation, they're uncomfortable with the arousal, they're uncomfortable with some part of the process or block it or interfere with it and don't let it build up in their bodies. They want the result but they're uncomfortable. 

Getting comfortable with their bodies and allowing the good feelings and focusing on the good feelings and pursuing the feelings and letting the feelings linger and enjoying. The goal being to have longer times-

Dr. Clifford Penner: Intense times.

Joyce Penner: ...intense times of enjoyment. And then the reflex of the orgasm is going to likely happen.

Dr. Clifford Penner: So a simple way of saying it is focusing on having an orgasm can keep it from happening. Focusing on the pleasure of the experience is most likely to lead to it. Now, we should throw something else in here and this may make some of your listeners uncomfortable. [00:37:16] 

But the reality is, let's say a couple gets married at age 25. Most guys, 98%, have started masturbating when they're 12 years old. By the time they get married, they've had anywhere from 500 to 5,000 ejaculations. Their body knows how to do that. 

If a woman has not engaged any self-stimulation that led to orgasm, then they're going to be pretty unfamiliar with all that. And so it's a whole learning process for her that is very different than what is true for the great majority of men. And if we just understand that we can argue about whether or not the boys should or shouldn't have masturbated but that's not the issue. The fact is they have. 

So it is important to understand that this is a learning process for a woman to learn how to listen to her body. That is a different experience than is true for the majority of men. 

Joyce Penner: And as long as the man feels it as a demand to give her an orgasm, or she feels it as a demand to have one, that kind of external pressure interferes with the body's involuntary nervous system that controls these responses. [00:38:32] 

So by freeing herself and freeing him and them learning to delight in their bodies and listen to their bodies and enjoy the closeness and the warmth and the touch and the good feelings as they build, that would be the goal. It's very similar to trying to fall asleep versus providing the right conditions for falling asleep. When we are struggling with insomnia and we try to fall asleep. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: And we're concentrating on falling asleep. That's a surest time not to. 

Laura Dugger: That is so good. Thank you for elaborating on all that. 

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Laura Dugger: And now just to get really practical, you've said before the best thing you can do for your sex life is to put the TV in the garage. [00:40:40] 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Let's expand on that immediately. We said that a while back. Now we would say control your electronics. It could be TV. It could be your laptop. It could be your iPad. It could be your cell phone. Whatever it is. The point is don't let yourself be controlled by the distractions in your life which are keeping you away from the intimacy with your wife. 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. And that's a practical application people can hear and again apply today. So you have written extensively on many of these topics that we've discussed today. Can you share a little bit about the resources that you have available? 

Dr. Clifford Penner: Well the very first book we wrote came out in 1981 which is a long time ago but it's been rewritten since then. That's The Gift of Sex. And that is just a basic sexual manual that is something that every couple could use. 

Then our most recent two books, one of them is for women, Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women, and the one for the man is The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. [00:41:46] We encourage couples especially to read that last one, the one for the man out loud together. 

Joyce Penner: But all three of those really benefit, and sometimes couples don't hear this when we say it, so we hope you're listening audiences hearing this. Reading a resource like this out loud together is much more effective than reading it alone and then talking about it together or even not talking about it is even less effective. 

The reading out loud works so well because we hear each other say the words and we can react to what we're reading in the moment. So we can say, well, I've never thought about it that way before, or I don't quite agree with that. How do you feel about that? So it almost acts like a third party to help grow the sexual relationship and understanding and intimacy with each other. [00:42:42] 

Dr. Clifford Penner: And if couples have not grown up being comfortable to talk about sex, in fact, we find many couples never talk about it, reading it out loud together any of these books is going to give them the opportunity to say the words, hear themselves say the words, get comfortable communicating about it. 

Joyce Penner: Now, if there are problems that the couple is struggling with-

Dr. Clifford Penner: Just say whether those are relational problems or problems with pain or problems with getting aroused or premature ejaculation or orgasmic problems, whatever they may be, technical sexual problems, then the book to read would be Restoring the Pleasure. 

Joyce Penner: And be sure you get our newest version which came out March 2016. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: You can always get these from our website which is passionatecommitment.com. Those would be the main resources unless you're an engaged couple and then we have a perfect book for you called Getting Your Sex Life Off To a Great Start. [00:43:43] This we encourage couples to read for the year to six months before they're getting married as they prepare themselves for a married sexual life. The whole book is about dealing with the sexual side of getting married 

Joyce Penner: But we find his couples work through that, it deals with so much more than just sex. It really is about becoming one and intimacy and spirituality and being able to communicate. If you get through that book together, it will make a huge difference. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: All of this is available on our website called passionatecommitment.com. 

Laura Dugger: We will certainly link to that in our show notes to make it easy for everyone to check out and order today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as we conclude this time together, what is your savvy sauce? 

Dr. Clifford Penner: One thing that we would say is that if you made no other change, then that you started kissing passionately on a daily basis, that was not designed to lead to sex, that we would virtually guarantee that it'll change your relationship and it'll change your sexual life. [00:44:58] 

Joyce Penner: And do that in the context of that 15 minutes per day. 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for just taking the time to share your years of expertise and knowledge with us. You two are doing remarkable things in the field and I'm so thankful for your years of work. 

Dr. Clifford Penner: We enjoy doing this and happy to connect with anyone that needs more information. 

Laura Dugger: It's giveaway time again and today we're giving away two of the Penners' books. You can go over to our website thesavvysauce.com and click on our "giveaways" tab. There you'll find detailed instructions for how to enter for your chance to win these two books, including Enjoy!: The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women and The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, both authored by the Penners. Thanks for participating. 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. [00:45:57] And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:46:57] 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:47:58] 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.