EP166 Interview With Mark & Simon From Elinchrom UK

EP166 Interview With Mark & Simon From Elinchrom UK

I sit down with Mark Cheatham and Simon Burfoot from Elinchrom UK to talk about the two words that matter most when you work with light: accuracy and consistency. We dig into flash vs. continuous, shaping light (not just adding it), why reliable gear shortens your workflow, and Elinchrom’s new LED 100 C—including evenly filling big softboxes and that handy internal battery. We also wander into AI: threats, tools, and why authenticity still carries the highest value.

 

Links:

• Elinchrom UK store/info: https://elinchrom.co.uk/

• LED 100 C product page: https://elinchrom.co.uk/elinchrom-led-100-c

• Rotalux Deep Octa / strips: https://elinchrom.co.uk/elinchrom-rotalux-deep-octabox-100cm-softbox/

• My workshop dates: https://masteringportraitphotography.com/workshops-and-mentoring/

Transcript:

Paul: as quite a lot of, you know, I've had a love affair with Elinchrom Lighting for the past 20 something years. In fact, I'm sitting with one of the original secondhand lights I bought from the Flash Center 21 years ago in London.

And on top of that, you couldn't ask for a nicer set of guys in the UK to deal with. So I'm sitting here about to talk to Simon and Mark from Elinchrom uk.

I'm Paul and this is the Mastering Portrait Photography podcast.

Paul: So before we get any further, tell me a little bit about who you are, each of you and the team from Elinchrom UK

Mark: After you, Simon.

Simon: Thank you very much, mark.

Mark: That's fine.

Simon: I'm, Simon Burfoot. I have, been in the industry now for longer than I care to think.

35 years almost to the, to the day.

Always been in the industry even before I left school because my father was a photographer and a lighting tutor, working for various manufacturers I was always into photography, and when he started the whole lighting journey. I got on it with him, and was learning from a very young age.

Did my first wedding at 16 years old. Had a Saturday job which turned into a full-time job in a retail camera shop. By the time I was 18, I was managing my own camera shop, in a little town in the Cotswolds called Cirencester. My dad always told me that to be a photographic rep in the industry, you needed to see it from all angles, to get the experience.

So I ended up, working in retail, moving over to a framing company. Finishing off in a prolab, hand printing, wedding photographers pictures, processing E6 and C41, hand correcting big prints for framing for, for customers, which was really interesting and I really enjoyed it. And then ended up working for a company called Leeds Photo Visual, I was a Southwest sales guy for them.

Then I moved to KJP before it became, what we know now as Wex, and got all of the customers back that I'd stolen for them for Leeds. And then really sort of started my career progressing through, and then started to work with Elinchrom, on the lighting side. Used Elinchrom way before I started working with them.

I like you a bit of a love affair. I'd used lots of different lights and, just loved the quality of the light that the Elinchrom system produced. And that's down to a number of factors that I could bore you with, but it's the quality of the gear, the consistency in terms of color, and exposure.

Shooting film was very important to have that consistency because we didn't have Photoshop to help us out afterwards. It was a learning journey, but I, I hit my goal after being a wedding photographer and a portrait photographer in my spare time, working towards getting out on the road, meeting people and being involved in the industry, which I love.

And I think it's something that I'm scared of leaving 'cause I dunno anything else. It's a wonderful industry. It has its quirks, its, downfalls at points, but actually it's a really good group of people and everyone kind of, gets on and we all love working with each other.

So we're friends rather than colleagues.

Paul: I hesitate to ask, given the length of that answer, to cut

Simon: You did ask.

Mark: I know.

Paul: a short story

Mark: was wondering if I was gonna get a go.

Paul: I was waiting to get to end into the podcast and I was about to sign off.

Mark: So, hi Mark Cheatham, sales director for Elinchrom uk this is where it gets a little bit scary because me and Simon have probably known each other for 10 years, yet our journeys in the industry are remarkably similar.

I went to college, did photography, left college, went to work at commercial photographers and hand printers. I was a hand printer, mainly black and white, anything from six by four to eight foot by four foot panels, which are horrible when you're deving in a dish. But we did it.

Paul: To the generation now, deving in a dish doesn't mean anything.

Simon: No, it doesn't.

Mark: And, and when you're doing a eight foot by four foot print and you've got it, you're wearing most of the chemistry. You went home stinking every night. I was working in retail. As a Saturday lad and then got promoted from the Saturday lad to the manager and went to run a camera shop in a little town in the Lake District called Kendall.

I stayed there for nine years. I left there,

went on the road working for a brand called Olympus, where I did 10 years, I moved to Pentax, which became Rico Pentax. I did 10 years there. I've been in the industry all my life. Like Simon, I love the industry.

I did go out the industry for 18 months where I went into the wonderful world of high end commercial vr, selling to blue light military, that sort of thing. And then came back. One of the, original members of Elinchrom uk. I don't do as much photography as Simon I take photos every day, probably too many looking at my Apple storage. I do shoot and I like shooting now and again, but I'm not a constant shooter like you guys i'm not a professional shooter, but when you spent 30 odd years in the industry, and part of that, I basically run the, the medium format business for Pentax. So 645D, 645Z.

Yeah, it was a great time. I love the industry and, everything about it. So, yeah, that's it

Paul: Obviously both of you at some point put your heads together and decided Elinchrom UK was the future. What triggered that and

why do you think gimme your sales pitch for Elinchrom for a moment and then we can discuss the various merits.

Simon: The sales pitch for Elinchrom is fairly straightforward. It's a nice, affordable system that does exactly what most photographers would like. We sell a lot of our modifiers, so soft boxes and things like that to other users, of Prophoto, Broncolor. Anybody else? Because actually the quality of the light that comes out the front of our diffusion material and our specular surfaces on the soft boxes is, is a lot, lot more superior than, than most.

A lot more superior. A lot more

Mark: A lot more superior.

Paul: more superior.

Simon: I'm trying to

Paul: Superior.

Simon: It's superior. And I think Paul, you'll agree,

Paul: it's a lot more,

Simon: You've used different manufacturers over the years and, I think the quality of light speaks for itself.

As a photographer I want consistency. Beautiful light and the effects that the Elinchrom system gives me, I've tried other soft boxes. If you want a big contrasty, not so kind light, then use a cheaper soft box.

If I've got a big tattoo guy full of piercings you're gonna put some contrasty light to create some ambience. Maybe the system for that isn't good enough, but for your standard portrait photographer in a studio, I don't think you can beat the light.

Mark: I think the two key words for Elinchrom products are accuracy and consistency. And that's what, as a portrait photographer, you should be striving for, you don't want your equipment to lengthen your workflow or make your job harder in post-production.

If you're using Elinchrom lights with Elinchrom soft boxes or Elinchrom modifiers, you know that you're gonna get accuracy and consistency. Which generally makes your job easier.

Paul: I think there's a bit that neither of you, I don't think you've quite covered, and it's the bit of the puzzle that makes you want to use whatever is the tool of your trade.

I mean, I worked with musicians, I grew up around orchestras. Watching people who utterly adore the instrument that's in their hand. It makes 'em wanna play it. If you own the instrument that you love to play, whether it's a drum kit a trumpet a violin or a piano, you will play it and get the very best out of your talent with it.

It's just a joy to pick it up and use it for all the little tiny things I think it's the bit you've missed in your descriptions of it is the utter passion that people that use it have for it.

Mark: I think one of the things I learned from my time in retail, which was obviously going back, a long way, even before digital cameras One of the things I learned from retail, I was in retail long before digital cameras, retail was a busier time.

People would come and genuinely ask for advice. So yes, someone would come in and what's the best camera for this? Or what's the best camera for that? Honestly there is still no answer to that. All the kit was good then all the kit is good now. You might get four or five different SLRs out.

And the one they'd pick at the end was the one that they felt most comfortable with and had the best connection with. When you are using something every day, every other day, however it might be, it becomes part of you. I'm a F1 fan, if you love the world of F1, you know that an F1 car, the driver doesn't sit in an F1 car, they become part of the F1 car.

When you are using the same equipment day in, day out, you don't have to think about what button to press, what dial to to turn.

You do it.

And that, I think that's the difference between using something you genuinely love and get on with and using something because that's what you've got. And maybe that's a difference you genuinely love and get on with Elinchrom lights. So yes, they're given amazing output and I know there's, little things that you'd love to see improved on them, but that's not the light output.

Paul: But the thing is, I mean, I've never, I've never heard the F1 analogy, but it's not a bad one.

When you talk about these drivers and their cars and you are right, they're sort of symbiotic, so let's talk a little bit about why we use flash. So from the photographers listening who are just setting out, and that's an awful lot of our audience. I think broadly speaking, there are two roads or three roads, if you include available light if you're a portrait photographer.

So there's available light. There's continuous light, and then there's strobes flash or whatever you wanna call it. Of course, there's, hybrid modeling and all sorts of things, but those are broadly the three ways that you're gonna light your scene or your subject. Why flash? What is it about that instantaneous pulse of light from a xenon tube that so appealing to photographers?

Simon: I think there's a few reasons. The available light is lovely if you can control it, and by that I mean knowing how to use your camera, and control the ambient light. My experience of using available light, if you do it wrong, it can be quite flat and uninteresting.

If you've got a bright, hot, sunny day, it can be harder to control than if it's a nice overcast day. But then the overcast day will provide you with some nice soft, flat lighting. Continuous light is obviously got its uses and there's a lot of people out there using it because what they see is what they get.

The way I look at continuous light is you are adding to the ambient light, adding more daylight to the daylight you've already got, which isn't a problem, but you need to control that light onto the subject to make the subject look more interesting. So a no shadow, a chin shadow to show that that subject is three dimensional.

There are very big limitations with LED because generally it's very unshapable. By that I mean the light is a very linear light. Light travels in straight lines anyway, but with a flash, we can shape the light, and that's why there's different shapes and sizes of modifiers, but it's very difficult to shape correctly -an LED array, the flash for me, gives me creativity. So with my flash, I get a sharper image to start with. I can put the shadows and the light exactly where I want and use the edge of a massive soft box, rather than the center if I'm using a flash gun or a constant light. It allows me to choose how much or how little contrast I put through that light, to create different dynamics in the image.

It allows me to be more creative. I can kill the ambient light with flash rather than adding to it. I can change how much ambient I bring into my flash exposure.

I've got a lot more control, and I'm not talking about TTL, I'm talking about full manual control of using the modifier, the flash, and me telling the camera what I want it to do, rather than the camera telling me what it thinks is right.

Which generally 99% of the time is wrong. It's given me a beautiful, average exposure, but if I wanted to kill the sun behind the subject, well it's not gonna do that. It's gonna give me an average of everything. Whereas Flash will just give me that extra opportunity to be a lot more creative and have a lot more control over my picture.

I've got quite a big saying in my workshops. I think a decent flash image is an image where it looks like flash wasn't used. As a flash photographer, Paul, I expect you probably agree with me, anyone can take a flash image. The control of light is important because anybody can light an image, but to light the subject within the image and control the environmental constraints, is the key to it and the most technical part of it.

Mark: You've got to take your camera off P for professional to do that. You've got to turn it off p for professional and get it in manual mode. And that gives you the control

Paul: Well, you say that,

We have to at some point. Address the fact that AI is not just coming, it's sitting here in

our studios all the time, and we are only a heartbeat away from P for professional, meaning AI analyzed and creating magic.

I don't doubt for a minute. I mean, right now you're right, but not

Mark: Well, at some point it will be integrated into the camera

Paul: Of course it will.

Mark: If you use an iPhone or any other phone, you know, we are using AI as phone photographers, your snapshots. You take your kids, your dogs, whatever they are highly modified images.

Paul: Yeah. But in a lot of the modern cameras, there's AI behind the scenes, for instance, on the focusing

Mark: Yeah.

Paul: While we've, we are on that, we were on that thread.

Let's put us back on that thread for a second. What's coming down the line

with, all lighting and camera craft with ai. What are you guys seeing that maybe we're not

Simon: in terms of flash technology or light technology?

Paul: Alright. I mean, so I mean there's, I guess there's two angles, isn't there?

What are the lights gonna do that use ai? What are the controllers gonna do, that uses ai, but more importantly, how will it hold its own in a world where I can hit a button and say, I want rebrand lighting on that face. I can do that today.

Mark: Yeah.

Simon: I'm not sure the lighting industry is anywhere near producing anything that is gonna give what a piece of software can give, because there's a lot more factors involved. There's what size light it is, what position that light is in, how high that light is, how low that light is.

And I think the software we've all heard and played with Evoto we were talking about earlier, I was very skeptical and dubious about it to start with as everybody would be. I'm a Photoshop Lightroom user, have been for, many years. And I did some editing, in EEvoto with my five free credits to start with, three edits in, I bought some credits because I thought, actually this is very, very good.

I'll never use it for lighting i'd like to think I can get that right myself. However, if somebody gives you a, a very flat image of a family outside and say, well, could you make this better for me? Well, guess what? I can do whatever you like to it. Is it gonna attack the photographer that's trying to earn a living?

I think there's always a need for people to take real photographs and family photographs. I think as photographers, we need to embrace it as an aid to speed up our workflow. I don't think it will fully take over the art of photography because it's a different thing.

It's not your work. It's a computer generated AI piece of work in my head. Therefore, who's responsible for that image? Who owns the copyright to that image? We deal with photographers all the time who literally point a camera, take a picture and spend three hours editing it and tell everyone that,

look at this. The software's really good and it's made you look good. I think AI is capable of doing that to an extent. In five years time, we'll look back at Evoto today and what it's producing and we'll think cracky. That was awful. It's like when you watch a high definition movie from the late 1990s, you look at it and it was amazing at the time, but you look at it now and you think, crikey, look at the quality of it.

I dunno if we're that far ahead where we won't get to that point. The quality is there. I mean, how much better can you go than 4K, eight K minus, all that kind of stuff. I'm unsure, but I don't think the AI side of it. Is applicable to flash at this moment in time? I don't know.

Mark: I think you're right.

To look at the whole, photography in general. If you are a social photographer, family photographer, whatever it might be, you are genuinely capturing that moment in time that can't be replaced.

If you are a product photographer, that's a different matter. I think there's more of a threat.

I think I might be right in saying.

I was looking, I think I saw it on, LinkedIn. There is a fashion brand in the UK at the moment that their entire catalog of clothing has been shot without models.

When you look at it on the website, there's models in it. They shoot the clothing on mannequins and then everything else is AI generated they've been developing their own AI platform now for a number of years. Does the person care Who's buying a dress for 30 quid?

Probably not, but if you are photographing somebody's wedding, graduation, some, you know, a genuine moment in someone's life, I think it'd be really wrong to use any sort of AI other than a little bit of post-production, which we know is now quite standard for many people in the industry.

Paul: Yeah, the curiosity for me is I suspect as an industry,

Guess just released a full AI model advert in, Vogue. Declared as AI generated an ai agency created it. Everything about it is ai. There's no real photography involved except in the learning side of it.

And that's a logical extension of the fact we've been Photoshopping to such a degree that the end product no longer related to the input. And we've been doing that 25 years. I started on Photoshop version one, whatever that was, 30 years More than 33.

So we've kind of worked our way into a corner where the only way out of it is to continue.

There's no backtracking now.

Mark: Yeah.

Paul: I think the damage to the industry though, or the worry for the industry, I think you're both right. I think if you can feel it, touch it, be there, there will always be that importance. In fact, the provenance of authenticity. Is the high value ticket item now,

Simon: Mm-hmm.

Paul: because you, everything else is synthetic, you can trust nothing. We are literally probably months away from 90% of social media being generated by ai. AI is both the consumer and the generator of almost everything online

Mark: Absolutely.

Paul: Goodness knows where we go. You certainly can't trust anything you read. You can't trust anything you see, so authenticity, face-to-face will become, I think a high value item.

Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Paul: I think one problem for us as an industry in terms of what the damage might be is that all those people that photograph nameless products or create books, you know, use photography and then compositing for, let's say a novel that's gone, stock libraries that's gone because they're faceless.

Simon: Mm-hmm.

Paul: there doesn't have to be authentic. A designer can type in half a dozen keywords. Into an AI engine and get what he needs. If he doesn't get what he needs, he does it again. All of those photographers who currently own Kit are gonna look around with what do we do now?

And so for those of us who specialize in weddings and portraits and family events, our market stands every chance of being diluted, which has the knock on effect of all of us having to keep an eye on AI to stay ahead of all competitors, which has the next knock on effect, that we're all gonna lean into ai, which begs the question, what happens after Because that's what happened in the Photoshop world.

You know, I'm kind of, I mean, genuinely cur, and this will be a running theme on the podcast forever, is kind of prodding it and taking barometer readings as to where are we going?

Mark: Yeah. I mean, who's more at threat at the moment from this technology?

Is it the photographer or is it the retouch? You know, we do forget that there are retouchers That is their, they're not photographers.

Paul: I don't forget. They email me 3, 4, 5 times a day.

Mark: a

Simon: day,

Mark: You know, a highly skilled retouch isn't cheap. They've honed their craft for many years using whatever software product they prefer to use.

I think they're the ones at risk now more so than the photographer. And I think we sort of lose sight of that. Looking at it from a photographer's point of view, there is a whole industry behind photography that actually is being affected more so than you guys at the moment.

Simon: Mm-hmm.

Paul: Yeah, I think there's truth in that, but. It's not really important. Of course, it's really important to all of those people, but this is the digital revolution that we went through as film photographers, and probably what the Daguerreotype generators went through when Fox Tolbert invented the first transfer.

Negative. You know, they are, there are always these epochs in our industry and it wipes out entire skillset.

You know, I mean, when we went to digital before then, like you, I could dev in a tank.

Yeah. You know, and really liked it. I like I see, I suspect I just like the solitude,

Mark: the dark,

Paul: red light in the dark

Mark: yeah.

Paul: Nobody will come in.

Not now. Go away. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. But of course those skills have gone, has as, have access to the equipment.

I think we're there again, this feels like to me a huge transition in the industry and for those who want to keep up, AI is the keeping up whether you like it or not.

Mark: Yeah. And if you don't like it, we've seen it, we're in the middle of a massive resurgence in film photography,

which is great for the industry, great for the retail industry, great for the film manufacturers, chemical manufacturers, everything.

You know, simon, myself, you, you, we, we, our earliest photography, whether we were shooting with flash, natural light, we were film shooters and that planes back.

And what digital did, from a camera point of view, is make it easier and more accessible for less skilled people.

But it's true. You know, if you shot with a digital camera now that's got a dynamic range of 15 stops, you actually don't even need to have your exposure, that accurate Go and shoot with a slide film that's got dynamic range of less than one stop and see how good you are.

It has made it easier. The technology, it will always make it. Easier, but it opens up new doors, it opens up new avenues to skilled people as well as unskilled people. If you want, I'm using the word unskilled again, I'm not being, a blanket phrase, but it's true. You can pick up a digital camera now and get results that same person shooting with a slide film 20 years ago would not get add software to that post-production, everything else.

It's an industry that we've seen so many changes in over the 30 odd years that we've been in it,

Simon: been

Mark: continue

Simon: at times. It exciting

Mark: The dawn of digital photography to the masses. was amazing.

I was working for Olympus at the time when digital really took off and for Olympus it was amazing. They made some amazing products. We did quite well out of it and people started enjoying photography that maybe hadn't enjoyed photography before.

You know, people might laugh at, you know, you, you, you're at a wedding, you're shooting a really nice wedding pool and there's always a couple of guests there which have got equipment as good as yours. Better, better than yours. Yeah. Got

Simon: jobs and they can afford it.

Mark: They've got proper jobs. Their pitches aren't going to be as good as yours.

They're the ones laughing at everyone shooting on their phone because they've spent six grand on their new. Camera. But if shooting on a phone gets people into photography and then next year they buy a camera and two years later they upgrade their camera and it gets them into the hobby of photography?

That's great for everyone. Hobbyists are as essential, as professional photographers to the industry. In fact, to keep the manufacturers going, probably more so

Simon: the hobbyists are a massive part. Even if they go out and spend six or seven or 8,000 pounds on a camera because they think it's gonna make them a better photographer. Who knows in two years time with the AI side, maybe it will. That old saying, Hey Mr, that's a nice camera.

I bet it takes great pictures, may become true. We have people on the lighting courses, the workshops we run, the people I train and they're asking me, okay, what sessions are we gonna use? And I'm saying, okay, well we're gonna be a hundred ISO at 125th, F 5.6. Okay, well if I point my camera at the subject, it's telling me, yeah, but you need to put it onto manual.

And you see the color drain out their faces. You've got a 6,000 pound camera and you've never taken it off 'P'.

Mark: True story.

Simon: And we see this all the time. It's like the whole TTL strobe manual flash system. The camera's telling you what it wants to show you, but that maybe is not what you want.

There are people out there that will spend a fortune on equipment but actually you could take just as good a picture with a much smaller, cheaper device with an nice bit of glass on the front if you know what you're doing. And that goes back to what Mark was saying about shooting film and slide film and digital today.

Paul: I, mean, you know, I don't want this to be an echo chamber, and so what I am really interested in though, is the way that AI will change what flash photography does.

I'm curious as to where we are headed in that, specific vertical. How is AI going to help and influence our ability to create great lip photography using flash?

Mark: I think,

Paul: I love the fact the two guys side and looked at each other.

Mark: I,

Simon: it's a difficult question to answer.

Mark: physical light,

Simon: is a difficult question to answer because if you're

Mark: talking about the physical delivery of light.

Simon: Not gonna change.

Mark: Now,

The only thing I can even compare it to, if you think about how the light is delivered, is what's the nearest thing?

What's gotta change? Modern headlamps on cars, going back to cars again, you know, a modern car are using these LED arrays and they will switch on and switch off different LEDs depending on the conditions in front of them. Anti dazzle, all this sort of stuff. You know, the modern expensive headlamp is an amazing technical piece of kit.

It's not just one ball, but it's hundreds in some cases of little arrays. Will that come into flash? I don't know. Will you just be able to put a soft box in front of someone and it will shape the light in the future using a massive array. Right? I dunno it,

Simon: there's been many companies tested these arrays, in terms of LED Flash,

And I think to be honest, that's probably the nearest it's gonna get to an AI point of view is this LED Flash.

Now there's an argument to say, what is flash if I walk into a living room and flick the light on, on off really quickly, is that a flash?

Mark: No, that's a folock in

Paul: me

Mark: turn, big lights off.

Paul: Yeah.

Mark: So

Simon: it,

you, you might be able to get these arrays to flush on and off. But LED technology, in terms of how it works, it's quite slow.

It's a diode, it takes a while for it to get to its correct brightness and it takes a while for it to turn off. To try and get an LED. To work as a flash. It, it's not an explosion in a gas field tube. It's a a, a lighter emitting diode that is, is coming on and turning off again. Will AI help that? Due to the nature of its design, I don't think it can.

Mark: Me and s aren't invented an AI flash anytime soon by the looks of, we're

Simon: it's very secret.

Mark: We're just putting everyone off Paul,

Simon: It's alright.

Mark: just so they don't think

Simon: Yeah,

Mark: Oh, it's gonna be too much hard work and we'll sort it.

Paul: It's definitely coming.

I don't doubt for a minute that this is all coming because there's no one not looking at anything

Simon: that makes perfect sense.

Paul: Right now there's an explosion of invention because everybody's trying to find an angle on everything.

Simon: Mm-hmm.

Paul: The guys I feel the most for are the guys who spent millions, , on these big LED film backdrop walls.

Simon: Yep.

Mark: So you can

Paul: a car onto a flight sim, rack, and then film the whole lot in front of an LED wall. Well, it was great. And there was a market for people filming those backdrops, and now of course that's all AI generated in the LED, but that's only today's technology.

Tomorrow's is, you don't need the LED wall.

That's here today. VEO3 and Flow already, I mean, I had to play with one the other day for one of our lighting diagrams and it animated the whole thing. Absolute genius.

Simon: Mm-hmm.

Paul: I still generated the original diagram.

Mark: Yeah,

Paul: Yeah, that's useful. There's some skill in there still for now, but, you gotta face the music that anything that isn't, I can touch it and prod it. AI's gonna do it.

Mark: Absolutely. If you've ever seen the series Mandalorian go and watch the making of the Mandalorian and they are using those big LED walls, that is their backdrop.

Yeah. And it's amazing how fast they shift from, you know, they can, they don't need to build a set. Yeah. They shift from scene to scene.

Paul: Well, aI is now building the scenes. But tomorrow they won't need the LED wall. 'cause AI will put it in behind the actors.

Mark: Yeah. Say after

Paul: that you won't need the actors because they're being forced to sign away the rights so that AI can be used. And even those that are standing their ground and saying no, well, the actors saying Yes. Are the ones being hired.

You know, in the end, AI is gonna touch all of it. And so I mean, it's things like, imagine walking into a studio. Let's ignore the LED thing for a minute, by the way, that's a temporary argument,

Simon: I know you're talking about.

Paul: about today's,

Simon: You're about the.

Mark: days

Paul: LEDs,

Simon: we're in, We're in very, very interesting times and. I'm excited for the future. I'm excited for the new generation of photographers that are coming in to see how they work with what happens.

We've gone from fully analog to me selling IMACON drum scanners that were digitizing negatives and all the five four sheet almost a shoot of properties for an estate agent were all digitized on an hassle blood scanner. And then the digital camera comes out and you start using it. It was a Kodak camera, I think the first SLRI used,

Paul: Yeah.

Simon: and you get the results back and you think, oh my God, it looks like it's come out of a practica MTL five B.

Mark: But

Simon: then suddenly

the technology just changes and changes and changes and suddenly it's running away with itself and where we are today. I mean, I, I didn't like digital to start with. It was too. It was too digital.

It was too sharp. It didn't have the feel of film, but do you know what?

We get used to it and the files that my digital mirrorless camera provide now and my Fuji GFX medium format are absolutely stunning. But the first thing I do is turn the sharpness down because they are generally over sharp. For a lovely, beautifully lit portrait or whatever that anybody takes, it just needs knocking back a bit.

We were speaking about this earlier,

I did some comparison edits from what I'd done manually in Photoshop to the Evoto. Do you know what the pre-selected edits are? Great. If you not the slider back from 10 to about six, you're there or thereabouts?

More is not always good.

Mark: I think when it comes to imagery in our daily lives,

the one thing that drives what we expect to see is TV and most people's TVs, everything's turned up to a hundred.

The color, the contrast, that was a bit of a shock originally from the film to digital, crossover. Everything went from being relatively natural to way over the top

Just getting back to AI and how it's gonna affect people like you and people that we work with day to day.

I don't think we should be worried about that. We should be worried about the images we see on the news, not what we're seeing, hanging on people's walls and how they're gonna be affected by ai.

That generally does affect everyone's daily life.

Paul: Yeah,

Mark: Yeah. But what

Paul: people now ask me, for instance, I've photographed a couple head shots yesterday, and the one person had not ironed her blouse.

And her first question was, can we sort that out in post? So this is the knock on effect people are becoming aware of what's possible.

What's that? Nothing.

Know, and the, the smooth clothing button in Evoto will get me quite a long way down that road and saves somebody picking up an eye and randomly, it's not me, it's now actually more work for me 'cause I shouldn't have to do it.

But, you know, this

is my point about the knock on effect. Our worlds are different. So I didn't really intend this to be just a great sort of circular conversation about AI cars and, future technology. It was more, I dunno, we ended up down there anyway.

Simon: We went down a rabbit hole.

Mark: A

Paul: rabbit hole.

Yeah

Mark: was quite an interesting one.

Simon: And I'm sorry if you've wasted your entire journey to work and we

Paul: Yeah.

Simon: Alright. It wasn't intended to be like that.

Paul: I think it's a debate that we need to be having and there needs to be more discussion about it. Certainly for anybody that has a voice in the industry and people are listening to it because right now it might be a toddler of a technology, but it's growing faster than people realize.

There is now a point in the written word online where AI is generating more than real people are generating, and AI is learning that. So AI is reading its own output. That's now beginning to happen in imagery and film and music.

Simon: Well,

even in Google results, you type in anything to a Google search bar. When it comes back to the results, the first section at the top is the AI generated version. And you know what, it's generally

Paul: Yep.

Simon: good and

Paul: turn off all the rest of it now. So it's only ai.

Simon: Not quite brave enough for that yet. No, not me.

Mark: In terms

Paul: of SEO for instance, you now need to tune it for large language models.

You need to be giving. Google the LLM information you want it to learn so that you become part of that section on a website. And it, you know, this is where we are and it's happening at such a speed, every day I am learning something new about something else that's arriving. And I think TV and film is probably slightly ahead of the photography industry

Mark: Yeah.

Paul: The pressures on the costs are so big,

Simon: Yes.

Paul: Whereas the cost differential, I'm predicting our costs will actually go up, not down.

Whereas in TV and film, the cost will come down dramatically.

Mark: Absolutely.

Simon: They are a horrifically high level anyway. That's

Paul: I'm not disputing that, but I watched a demo of some new stuff online recently and they had a talking head and they literally typed in relight that with a kiss light here, hairlight there, Rembrandt variation on the front.

And they did it off a flat picture and they can move the lights around as if you are moving lights. Yes. And that's there today. So that's coming our way too. And I still think the people who understand how to see light will have an advantage because you'll know when you've typed these words in that you've got it about right.

It doesn't change the fact that it's going to be increasingly synthetic.

The moment in the middle of it is real. We may well be asked to relight things, re clothe things that's already happening.

Simon: Yeah.

Paul: We get, can you just fill in my hairline? That's a fairly common one.

Just removing a mole. Or removing two inches round a waist. This, we've been doing that forever.

Simon: Mm-hmm.

Paul: And so now it'll be done with keyword generation rather than, photoshop necessarily.

Simon: I think you'll always have the people that embrace this, we can't ignore it as you rightly say.

It's not going away. It's gonna get bigger, it's gonna feature more in our lives.

I think there's gonna be three sets of people. It's gonna be the people like us generally on a daily basis. We're photographers or we're artists. We enjoy what we do. I enjoy correctly lighting somebody with the correct modifier

properties to match light quality to get the best look and feel and the ambience of that image. And I enjoy the process of putting that together and then seeing the end result afterwards. I suppose that makes me an artist in, in, in loose terms. I think, you know, as, as, as a photographer, we are artists.

You've then got another generation that are finding shortcuts. They're doing some of the job with their camera. They're making their image from an AI point of view. Does that make up an artist? I suppose it still does because they're creating their own art, but they have no interest 'cause they have no enjoyment in making that picture as good as it can be before you even hit the shutter. And then I think you've got other people, and us to an extent where you do what you need to do, you enjoy the process, you look at the images, and then you just finely tune it with a bit of AI or Photoshop retouching

so I think there are different sets of people that will use AI to their advantage or completely ignore it.

Mark: Yeah. I think you're right. And I think it comes down, I'm going to use another analogy here, you, you know, let's say you enjoy cooking. If you enjoy cooking, you're creating something. What's the alternative? You get a microwave meal.

Well, Paul

Simon: and Sarah do.

Mark: No.

Paul: Sarah does.

Simon: We can't afford waitress.

Mark: You might spend months creating your perfect risotto.

You've got it right.

You love it. Everyone else loves it. You share it around all your friends. Brilliant. Or you go to Waitrose, you buy one, put it three minutes in the microwave and it's done.

That's yer AI I Imagery, isn't it? It's a microwave meal.

Paul: There's a lot of microwave meals out there. And not that many people cook their own stuff and certainly not as many as used to. And there's a lesson.

Simon: Is,

Mark: but also,

Simon: things have become easier

Mark: there

Simon: you go.

Mark: I think what we also forget in the photographic industry and take the industry as a whole, and this is something I've experienced in the, in the working for manufacturers in that photography itself is, is a, is a huge hobby.

There's lots of hobbyist photographers, but there's actually more people that do photography as part of another hobby, birdwatching, aviation, all that sort of thing. Anything, you know, the photography isn't the hobby, it's the birds that are the hobby, but they take photographs of, it's the planes that are the hobby, but they take photographs.

They're the ones that actually keep the industry going and then they expand into other industries. They come on one of our workshops. You know, that's something that we're still and Simon still Absolutely. And yourself, educating photographers to do it right, to

practice using the gear the right way, but the theory of it and getting it right.

If anything that brings more people into wanting to learn to cook better,

Paul: you

Mark: have

more chefs rather than people using microwave meals. Education's just so important. And when it comes to lighting, I wasn't competent in using flash. I'm still not, but having sat through Simon's course and other people's courses now for hundreds of times, I can light a scene sometimes,

people

are still gonna be hungry for education.

I think some wills, some won't. If you wanna go and get that microwave risotto go and microwave u risotto. But there's always gonna be people that wanna learn how to do it properly, wanna learn from scratch, wanna learn the art of it.

Creators and in a creative industry, we've got to embrace those people and bring more people into it and ensure there's more people on that journey of learning and upskilling and trying to do it properly.

Um, and yes, if they use whatever technology at whatever stage in their journey, if they're getting enjoyment from it, what's it matter?

Paul: Excellent.

Mark: What a fine

Paul: concluding statement. If they got enjoyment outta it. Yeah. Whatever. Excellent. Thank you, Mark, for your summing up.

Simon: In conclusion,

Paul: did that just come out your nose?

What on earth.

Mark: What

Paul: what you can't see, dear Listener is the fact that Mark just spat his water everywhere, laughing at Si.

It's been an interesting podcast. Anyway, I'm gonna drag this back onto topic for fear of it dissolving into three blokes having a pint.

Mark: I think we should go for one.

Simon: I think,

Paul: I think we should know as well.

Having said that with this conversation, maybe not. I was gonna ask you a little bit about, 'cause we've talked about strobes and the beauty of strobes, but of course Elinchrom still is more than that, and you've just launched a new LED light, so I know you like Strobe Simon.

Now talk about the continuous light that also Elinchrom is producing.

Simon: We have launched the Elinchrom LED 100 C. Those familiar with our Elinchrom One and Three OCF camera Flash system. It's basically a smaller unit, but still uses the OCF adapter.

Elinchrom have put a lot of time into this. They've been looking at LED technology for many years, and I've been to the factory in Switzerland and seen different LED arrays being tested. The problem we had with LEDs is every single LED was different and put out a different color temperature.

We're now manufacturing LEDs in batches, where they can all be matched. They all come from the same serial number batch. And the different colors of LED as well, 15 years ago, blue LEDs weren't even possible. You couldn't make a blue LED every other color, but not blue for some unknown reason.

They've got the colors right now, they've got full RGB spectrum, which is perfectly accurate a 95 or 97 CRI index light. It's a true hundred watts, of light as well. From tosin through to past daylight and fully controllable like the CRO flash system in very accurate nth degrees.

The LED array in the front of the, the LEDA hundred is one of the first shapeable, fully shapeable, LED arrays that I've come across and I've looked at lots.

By shapeable, I mean you put it into a soft box, of any size and it's not gonna give you a hotspot in the middle, or it's not gonna light the first 12 inches of the middle of the soft box and leave the rest dark.

I remember when we got the first LD and Mark got it before me

And he said, I've put it onto a 70 centimeter soft box. And he said, I've taken a picture to the front. Look at this. And it was perfectly even from edge to edge. When I got it, I stuck it onto a 1 3 5 centimeter soft box and did the same and was absolutely blown away by how even it was from edge to edge.

When I got my light meter out, if you remember what one of those is, uh, it, uh, it gave me a third of a stop different from the center to the outside edge. Now for an LED, that's brilliant. I mean, that's decent for a flash, but for an LED it's generally unheard of. So you can make the LED as big as you like.

It's got all the special effects that some of the cheaper Chinese ones have got because people use that kind of thing. Apparently I have no idea what for. But it sits on its own in a market where there are very cheap and cheerful LEDs, that kind of do a job. And very expensive high-end LEDs that do a completely different job for the photographer that's gone hybrid and does a bit of shooting, but does a bit of video work.

So, going into a solicitor's or an accountant's office where they want head shots, but also want a bit of talking head video for the MD or the CEO explaining about his company on the website. It's perfect. You can up the ISO and use the modeling lamp in generally the threes, the fives, the ones that we've got, the LEDs are brilliant.

But actually the LED 100 will give you all your modifier that you've taken with you, you can use those. It's very small and light, with its own built-in battery and it will give you a very nice low iso. Talking head interview with a lovely big light source.

And I've proved the point of how well it works and how nice it is at the price point it sits in. But it is our first journey into it. There will be others come in and there'll be an app control for it. And I think from an LED point of view, you're gonna say, I would say this, but actually it's one of the nicer ones I've used.

And when you get yours, you can tell people exactly the same.

Paul: Trust me,

I will.

Simon: Yes.

Mark: I think

Paul: very

excited about it.

Mark: I think the beauty

of it as well is it's got an inbuilt battery.

It'll give

you up to 45 minutes on a full charge.

You can plug it in and run it off the mains directly through the USB socket as well. But it means it's a truly portable light source. 45 minutes at a hundred watt and it's rated at a hundred watt actual light output. It's seems far in excess of that.

When you actually,

Simon: we had a photographer the other day who used it and he's used to using sort of 3, 2 50, 300 watt LEDs and he said put them side by side at full power.

They were virtually comparable.

Paul: That is certainly true, or in my case by lots.

Simon: I

seem to be surrounded

Paul: by Elinchrom kit,

Which is all good. So for anybody who's interested in buying one of these things, where'd you get them? How much are they?

Simon: The LED itself, the singlehead unit is 499 inc VAT.

If you want one with a charger, which sounds ridiculous, but there's always people who say, well, I don't want the charger. You can have one with a charger for 50 quid extra. So 549. The twin kit is just less than a thousand quid with chargers. And it comes in a very nice portable carry bag to, to carry them around in.

Um, and, uh, yeah, available from all good photographic retailers, and, Ellen crom.co uk.

Paul: Very good. So just to remind you beautiful people listening to this podcast, we only ever feature people and products, at least like this one where I've said, put a sales pitch in because I use it.

It's only ever been about what we use here at the studio. I hate the idea of just being a renta-voice.

You it.

Mark: bought it.

Paul: Yeah. That's true. You guys sold it to me.

Mark: Yeah,

Simon: if I gave you

anything you'd tell everyone it was great. So if you buy it, no, I've bought

Paul: Yeah. And

then became an ambassador for you. As with everything here, I put my money where my mouth is, we will use it. We do use it. I'm really interested in the little LED light because I could have done with that the other night. It would've been perfect for a very particular need. So yes, I can highly recommend Elinchrom Fives and Threes if you're on a different system.

The Rotalux, system of modifier is the best on the planet. Quick to set up, quick to take down. More importantly, the light that comes off them is just beautiful, whether it's a Godox, whether it's on a ProPhoto, which it was for me, or whether if you've really got your common sense about you on the front of an Elinchrom.

And on that happy note and back to where we started, which is about lighting, I'm gonna say thanks to the guys. They came to the studio to fix a problem but it's always lovely to have them as guests here. Thank you, mark. Thank you Simon. Most importantly, you Elinchrom for creating Kit is just an absolute joy to use.

If you've enjoyed the podcast, please head over to all your other episodes. Please subscribe and whatever is your podcast, play of choice, whether it's iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or a other. After you head, if you head across to masteringportraitphotography.com the spiritual home of this, particular, podcast, I will put in the show notes all the little bits of detail and where to get these things.

I'll get some links off the guys as to where to look for the kit. Thank you both. I dunno when I'll be seeing you again. I suspect it will be the Convention in January if I know the way these things go.

Simon: We're not gonna get invited back, are we?

Mark: Probably not. Enough.

Paul: And I'm gonna get a mop and clean up that water. You've just sprayed all over the floor.

What is going on?

Simon: wish we'd video. That was a funny sun

Mark: I just didn't expect it and never usually that sort of funny and quick,

Simon: It's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Paul: On that happy note, whatever else is going on in your lives, be kind to yourself. Take care.