Let’s Talk Voiceover - Episode 38 - Debra Wilson

A force of nature.  Inspirational.  Wickedly talented.  That's what colleagues say about Debra Wilson.  She's gone from improv comedy on the stage to sketch comedy on television to movies and one of the most sought-after voice actors in the industry.  Mad TV, The Weakest Link, Saints Row, Diablo, Destiny 2, Ratchet & Clank, World of Warcraft, Hearthstone...literally too many to list.  What stands out more than her credits is her passion and her love of the craft.   Get ready, because a conversation with Debra is a full-contact ride.

Debra Wilson:

... I've been with CESD almost two decades.

Randall Ryan:

Wow. Yeah. That's you and Dave Fennoy.

Debra Wilson:

My crush, by the way. One of my crushes.

Randall Ryan:

Yeah. I think there's a “get in line” on that one.

Debra Wilson:

Yeah. Yeah…mmm.

Randall Ryan:

(laughs) Debra-

Debra Wilson:

I'm going to put you on the spot, ‘cause you're in there too, Randall Ryan, and you know that.

Randall Ryan:

Go ahead, put me on the spot. What are you putting me on the spot for?

Debra Wilson:

I just told you. I said I'm going to put you on the spot because you're in there too.  And you know that already.

Randall Ryan:

Oh, that I have a crush on Dave?

Debra Wilson:

No, you idiot.

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs) Oh, that was priceless. Who? Me? Little ol’ me?  Little ol’ Randall? Stop it!

Debra Wilson:

Thank you, Gillian. Thank you Goddess, for getting it.

 

THEME MUSIC

Randall Ryan:

A couple of weeks ago, I was speaking with one of the best and most well-known voice actors in the industry, and Debra Wilson's name came up.  “She has to be the best in the industry. I'm not even sure who's second.”  That's what this person said. I got to tell you, there is no higher praise in when your colleagues speak privately about you in those terms.

Here's my story. The very first time I worked with Debra, she had a character who was supposed to speak an unintelligible language, and she was inventing this. The thing is that she hadn't even seen the script because it was under such tight NDA.  So, the first time she saw it was when she came into the studio. She not only did such a great job inventing this, and in a ridiculously short period of time, she set the bar for what everybody else was going to do with this particular race of people anytime that there was a character there.  And oh, by the way: she also voiced two other characters for the same game in the same session that had nothing to do with those.

Years as a cast member on Mad TV, Savathun and Destiny 2, HALO, Saints Road, Diablo, Cosmonious High…she has way too many credits to even attempt a synopsis. It's better if you just hear from the fascinating person that is Debra.

 

So, let's talk voiceover, Debra Wilson.

Debra Wilson:

Yes. Let's talk voiceover Randall Ryan. Let's talk voiceover, Gillian.

Gillian Brashear:

Let's do.

Debra Wilson:

You need your own island.

Gillian Brashear:

Okay, great. I'll take it.

Debra Wilson:

Yeah, Gillian's Island.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

And that's how it begins, Gillian. That's how it begins.

Gillian Brashear:

I'll take it. (laughs) You can come, too! You can visit my island, both of you.

Debra Wilson:

Yay. You have internet?

Gillian Brashear:

I will. It's called a pigeon.

Debra Wilson:

Call me when you do.

Randall Ryan:

I never have asked you this.

 

Debra Wilson:

Uh huh.

 

Randall Ryan:

You, at least to my consciousness came up more as doing comedy and especially doing sketch stuff. You don't do any of that anymore.

Debra Wilson:

It's not that I don't do it, it's just that it hasn't really come up. And it hasn't been a venue that's come up where it's like, wow, here's this offer. Wow, I want to create this type of show. Or, wow, let's go up and do some standup. Or, wow, let's host this event and bring out comedians. So there just hasn't been the opportunity to do that kind of stuff live more than anything else. And of course, you have to include, in that equation, the pandemic.

Randall Ryan:

So, for you, it was never a conscious, like you know, I think I'm done with this and I'm just going to go do this other thing. VO became kind of a venue for you that essentially filled your plate.

Debra Wilson:

Yes. And then, on-camera stuff started becoming less and less because I knew I was moving in a different direction. And I began to choose moving in a different direction and started getting tattooed, which was a subconscious as well as a very, very conscious decision creatively, which signified not being on camera as much or not being on camera at all.

Randall Ryan:

So, why? Whether you were actually eschewing it or not, why did you just say, "You know what, I think I'm either done with this or I'm not going to pursue it." And you moved into what, really, from an acting perspective is, almost a completely different realm.

Debra Wilson:

No, it's actually the same realm because people have a tendency to believe that voice acting is not acting. And so, it's the exact same realm, I just don't have the lights, camera, the makeup, the wardrobe, but I'm using my mind and I'm using my imagination, I'm using my third eye.  And I'm being able to be quite an amazing storyteller because I choose to delve into what I'm doing no differently than what I'm doing on front of camera. I may have cameras and stuff in front of me, but I've got a mic in front of me, and either way there is a story that needs to be told.  And at the end of the day, nobody wants to hear it, everybody wants to feel it.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And so, being able to create from that space easily and more openly and more giving, and being able to bring myself to the table is really, really wonderful. And creating all of those varying choices.  Because no matter what, even if you're in a booth, you are never having a monologue. It's never a monologue, unless it specifically is written as a monologue, it's never a monologue, it's always a dialogue. It's always a conversation.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

Debra Wilson:

Even if the other being, other creature, other sentient thing that takes up space is not speaking, their emotions speak, their body language speaks. And so, you're still using your third eye no matter what. You get a chance to create that, and you get a chance to experience that and bring yourself to the table on both realms. So, it is no different. It's absolutely no different.  In fact, sometimes, it's even more challenging for me in voiceover emotionally because I go so deep. I bring up a lot of stuff, which is really wonderful and cathartic at the same time. But I'm very proud that I make sure that my most authentic voice of who I am begins to be a part of the being that gets the chance to come forth through me, through my voice, through my body, through my heart, through my third eye, to be able to have their story told.  And I'm very grateful that I'm that vessel for that. It just so happens that voiceover became so prominent before letting go, before me saying, no, I don't want to do this anymore. Or, hey, I'm moving away. Voiceover had already become prominent at that point.

And, the realms of voiceover were a full spectrum: ADR, looping, book on tape, animation, straight announce, promo announce for NBC. And most recently, I'm the first woman and the first person of color to voice two major attractions, one at Disneyland and one at Disney World Orlando, the first one being the Jungle Cruise.

Gillian Brashear:

That's great.

Randall Ryan:

Wow.

Gillian Brashear:

That's fantastic, Debra.

Debra Wilson:

So, that's pretty significant. Disney has become so inclusive and they said we're going to flip the script to a certain extent in the narrative slightly. And if Albert Awol, traditionally, goes off on his wild adventure and leaves his capable sister to do it because they know each other and he trusts her with the radio station, then you get Skipper Missy, darling.

 

Gillian Brashear:
(laughs)

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Debra Wilson:

And most recently, at Disney World, which is a huge, I cried, I bawled when I found out I booked this, which is a significant thing for me.  After 40 years of using Tom Kane who had been doing the voice of the Monorail system, he's the Monorail captain, he's been doing it for 40 years, now it's me.  

 

Randall Ryan:

Wow.

 

Debra Wilson:

So, I am now the new Monorail captain. I have recorded all of the dialogue. It's a lot of work and a lot of paperwork, but it's going to be interesting to see all these people from around the world in my mind's eye, or who live in the area and traditionally come, to hear a woman's voice. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome aboard.

Gillian Brashear:

That's amazing. I'm so excited for you for that.

Debra Wilson:

Thank you, goddess. Thank you, goddess. Yeah, it's pretty prolific. So, I run the gamut. Plus, I do a lot of creature voices for video. I worked on a film directed by Philip Noyce, Australian director who directed Clear and Present Danger. It's a film that you can find on Amazon Prime and it's called the Darkest Hour.

And Naomi Watts is the only physical person in there. I think there's one snippet of a physical person, but you only see him from a rear-view mirror, only his eyes. And I play the 911 officer.  But the character's name is Dedra Wilkinson. And Dedra is spelled D-E-D-R-A.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Uh huh!

 

Debra Wilson:

And my name is spelled D-E-B-R-A. And her last name begins with W-I-L and so does mine. So, I like to believe in kismet.

Randall Ryan:

For many years now, I've made it a point of sticking around to watch the credits in movies and watching the extra voices and things of that nature.

Debra Wilson:

All the loop groups.

Randall Ryan:

Right, and it's amazing how many times you come up. I was like, "Oh, I know her." (laughs)

Debra Wilson:

(laughs) It's a lot of fun. And also, when Jane Lynch was hosting the revised version of The Weakest Link on NBC, I was the game show announcer for that. And Steve Harvey had a judge show. I don't know if it'll come back for another season on ABC prime time, and I was the court announcer on that, but it was all voiceover.  And so, I'm really digging voiceover to the point in which I really don't have the same passion or drive for on-camera because of the way I look. And at my age, it's easier to hire someone who looks like a grandma or a senior than to say, "Okay. Well, she doesn't have any hair and she has tattoos and we need to cover her up."  And so, it's easier to hire somebody who already looks the part than to cover me up. When it was all comedy, it was no problem covering me up, I wasn't nearly as tattooed. But when I say that I'm tattooed, I'm tattooed from the tips of my fingers all the way through my neck, down my entire body, to the tops of my feet.

Gillian Brashear:

Wow. Debra.

Debra Wilson:

I have a full body suit.

Gillian Brashear:

Wow.

Randall Ryan:

But I would say this, and Gillian's going to be able to speak to this more than me because she's got an on-camera career. But…

 

Gillian Brashear:

Hmm.

 

Randall Ryan:

…you don't look like anybody that I know. And I understand we're all doing voiceover. So, all of us kind of live in this world where nobody tends to know what we look like. I think you're extraordinarily striking.  Part of it is that you don't look your age. You don't look anything like what something is supposed to be.  And so, it would just seem to me that if this was something that you really wanted to pursue, which is why I'm guessing it's something that you don't. so it's obviously not something that you're even pursuing. At least, that's my guess.

Debra Wilson:

Correct. It's not anything I'm pursuing. However, if someone said, listen, I have an independent film. There's no money in it, but it's a passion project of mine. For me, it is the flip side of the same coin as voiceover. And if someone is saying, “I really hope that you will come in and help tell this story. This story is very important to me. And it speaks volumes to the world.”  In a heartbeat.  In a heartbeat for stuff like that.  As long as it's a project that I go, it's a passion project. I want to steep myself into this role and allow this being to come forth and tell their story. But they're far and few between, because a lot of the auditions that come in, and those are far and few between to begin with, are the sassy black grandmother.

 

Giilian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

The sassy black friend.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

 The girlfriend who is friends with the others who went to college together, and one of them is dying of cancer, and they play music and they dance.  And one of them married a rich guy, but he's a ne'er-do-well and cheats on her.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(chuckles)

 

Debra Wilson:

And so, they all get together to be friends again, and you know, that kind of stuff. But I did a lot of that when I was on Mad TV, ‘cause those are real sitcom characters.  And some things never change in television.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

It has to a certain extent in how it's shot.  Things like Modern Family, those amazing characters, they're all layered.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

But it's still a sitcom, and it still has its parameters.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And so, because of those parameters, I realize in voiceover I don't have any parameters.  The only parameter I can set is a limitation for myself, and I choose not to do that. And so, no one cares whether I'm a little boy or if I'm a dragon. No one says, "Is that dragon black? Is that dragon a woman?" Unless it's specifically in the specs that way, but nobody cares.  And as I get older, I'm working more than I've ever worked. I'm 60 and the momentum is only growing. I'm also Daisy Duck for Disney.

Randall Ryan:

Are you really? (laughs)

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

Debra Wilson:

I know. Who would have thunk it when you look at me, right? And you hear this voice and (as Daisy Duck) “all of sudden and this comes out. Really? Quackers. Oh, Donald!”

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

But it was done by the prolific and amazing Tress MacNeille, who I know both of you know. But when it comes to the show that she was doing initially for the first season called Mickey Mouse Funhouse on Disney Junior, she said, "I don't want to do a second season. I'm so busy with so many other things."  And Daisy Duck was a huge commitment because sometimes it branches out into other things that are Disney-oriented.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

 And it has for me already. So, it's been very, very lovely. And it was a grueling audition process because I don't do soundalikes. And initially, they wanted someone who sounded very much like Tress MacNeille doing Daisy Duck, and that's a tall order.  Because Tress MacNeille is fucking brilliant, number one. And number two, to sound like somebody who's doing something else as opposed to sounding like them. And I kept thinking, I don't do soundalikes. I don't enjoy soundalikes unless it's Whoopi Goldberg, who I have down, Oprah Winfrey, who I have down, and Viola Davis, who I have down.  But our timbres are all in those same registers.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

I didn't enjoy the process. The first time I did it it took me three hours to get through a single audition and sent it to my agent. And then the second time I got a call back, and the first thing I thought was "Why?"  It wasn't a joyful “Hey, guess what? You got a call back!” It was like, Ugh. So, now, I have to go through a grueling process again of sounding like a woman who sounds like Daisy Duck.

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Gillian Brashear:

(chuckles)

 

Debra Wilson:

I did the call back and I went, okay, I don't do soundalikes, but guess what? Here's the positive.  At least I got through a second audition, a call back for a soundalike and I don't do soundalikes and I don't enjoy soundalikes, and yet I got a call back.  That's really great. That's the end of that. That's what I did. I wiped my hands and went, that's great.  Until I got a third callback, and I went, "What the fuck?" It was not joyful.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

But when I went in the third time, I was like, "Oh, fuck." And I didn't mean to tank the second audition, but I showed up an hour and five minutes late.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mmmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

I was on my motorcycle and I took a route.  And I was like, "Oh, I'll find my way around Burbank this way. I'll go this way."

 

Randall Ryan:

Mmm..

 

Debra Wilson:

And I didn't know how I ended up. And I came in and was like, "I am so sorry. I really am." And I really was. But they were gracious. The folks at Disney were so absolutely gracious, like they really wanted to hear me.  And the last time I went in, of course, I was on time and I was like, "Okay, just go through it again and this is going to be it. They're going to choose someone else. So, just go in and do what you have to do. You've done it twice already. This is like a third tooth being pulled. You're used to it. No, no, we can't, here we go."

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Debra Wilson:

And it was different. Something clicked. And it was one of the most fun auditions. It was silly. I bunny-hopped through it. It was amazing. And my amazing agent, Pat Brady, who has a close relationship with the Disney Corporation who is now retired, had a retirement party.  And someone from Disney was there and said, "I want to tell you something, I'm a producer on the show and congratulations, we wanted you. But what ended up happening is Disney corporation wanted that Tress MacNeille sound. They were afraid of losing that and losing audience.”  But they didn't know what they wanted. So, their conformity was the Tress MacNeille template.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mmm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

But not just Tress MacNeille, Tress MacNeille as Daisy Duck template, which is a tall order. And so, he said, "Well, what is Daisy Duck? What is Daisy duck? Who is Daisy Duck?  And all these Daisy Ducks that came before Tress. What is it to the corporation as opposed to this person that didn't exist when Daisy Duck was around? So, what is Daisy Duck? If you had to describe her, you would describe her by personality, but not by a person, not a human being.  You're making her a human being. You're making Daisy Duck Tress MacNeille, and it should be the other way around. So, who is Daisy Duck? And can this person, Debra Wilson, be Daisy Duck in all of those characteristics that has always been Daisy classically, and the stuff that has been written for Tress MacNeille, in general, in how we've kind of evolved Daisy Duck just a smidge from the 1950s and 60s, can we just update her?”

 

And so, when they said, "Okay, here's what you do. Here's Daisy in this situation,” and I had to do some soundalike stuff.  And then, they stopped the soundalike stuff almost immediately and went straight into “let's do an episode.”

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

“Here's how Tress does it. We're not asking you to do Tress. We're just asking you to be Daisy: sassy, fun, all of those things, in this register though.  The only thing we require from Disney is this particular register because we don't want it to match with Minnie Mouse.”

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And so, I did. And then, I became Daisy. And they let me become Daisy. And Daisy became me. So, the next person who does Daisy Duck, it will always be prolifically, and it will always be classically, what they want for Daisy Duck.  And can you fit the role and fit the bill as Daisy Duck with these characteristics in these specs?   As opposed to you have to sound like Debra Wilson, she did it before and you have to sound like the Debra Wilson as Daisy Duck.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm Hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

(as Daisy Duck) So, now, Daisy sounds like this, but not too far Tress MacNeille. Quackers, really?  Oh, Minnie! Mickey! Oh, Donald, really?”

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Gillian Brashear:

So did you do Daisy before you did your bits for the Monorail and the Jungle Cruise?

Debra Wilson:

I've been doing Daisy Duck for about a year now.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Because what they did is they said, "Well, we've got a lot of catching up to do. Since we know that Tress MacNeille is no longer interested in doing the series, we've got a lot of catching up to do.”  So every recording session, usually on Fridays, was five to six episodes per Friday.  And along with music. And I had to sing in Daisy Duck's register.

 

Randall Ryan:

Oh, yeah.

 

Debra Wilson:

Which is a challenge for me with my voice. But, I managed it because it was Daisy and I was like, "Whatever, you're not you. So, stop thinking about you're a register. You're Daisy." And if you can talk like Daisy, then you can sing like Daisy, and you will. And I sing. So, it's like, you got this.  You got this.

Randall Ryan:

You know, Gillian, you were saying something to me, I don't even know how long ago it was. But you said something about Debra and just the way that she throws herself into something that's a little bit different than somebody else, I don't remember exactly what you said with that.

Gillian Brashear:

Well, what I find so interesting about working with you Debra, and also listening to you talk is just the total abandoned into the depths that you're willing and wanting to go, and I think that's really interesting. So, I think the conversation that we had been having, Randall, was that sometimes people do need to be, I don't want to say led, because I don't know that that's particularly fair, but allowed.  Here, you can do this and you can go farther. And there's just more to do with the characters. I think it's rare sometimes when you hear someone approach a character and you go, "Wow, I had never considered that" or "That is so really interesting. I actually have to stop and listen to it for a bit just to let it all soak in all the levels of what is happening.”  And that sort of gets in a nutshell of what happens for me when I'm working with Debra. (laughs)

Debra Wilson:

(giggles) I call it immersion and possession, because I need that being to take over. So, before I start any session I will ask a million questions, and then I will talk to them as that person; that person will come through me.  It really is like an immersion and possession.  And that person will come through…

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

…and they'll tell you a moment about their lives. And then, they'll begin. It works for two reasons: because I allow that possession to take place, that person is completely aware of their life. They're conscious, they're now a sentient being in their life, and they're just using my body to do it.  And the booth director and the game devs or whoever's listening in can also go, "Yes, we like this voice. Let's raise the register. Let's give her more of this. Let's give her more of that." And so, it works as a dual purpose. But once I'm involved, I have an emotional aspect to this life, a personal aspect to this life, a family aspect.  And what I'll do is I will break down that story immediately in that booth, as I am introducing myself. And I'll tell you about my life, where I've been, why I am, who I am. So, I never go approach anything without asking why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why?

Because all those details are important because a lot of people don't pay attention to it. But emotionally, they register that vibration…

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mmm…

 

Debra Wilson:

…because it comes from a reality and it becomes from an authenticity.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Yeah.

 

Debra Wilson:

So how you're looking at somebody and how somebody looks at you, you can't hide it.  Just like body language.  You can't hide it.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And so, it's really, really important because body language should be used, because it says I'm not hiding my authentic being in this moment. I'm giving it a door opening, so that this other being can come through and use it and tell their story.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

They don't have their own emotion fully because they came from a page.  But they have mine, and they go, "Yes, I can relate to that." So, I'm going to take that and borrow that, and I'm going to cut myself open with your past. And that's how I work.

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.  That makes a lot of sense to me because I am listening when I'm in the director mode, but also as an actor, too. I'm always listening for that tone or that scintillation that is the sound of something being true. You just know it when you hear it like, aha and that's it. That's the one, that's where everything comes together: the reality, the truth of the character, and the emotion drops in. And then, suddenly, it's alive.

Randall Ryan:

There are actors that do this. It's kind of like Gillian saying there are some people that need to be led and that's not really fair,  because that's NOT really fair. But you seem to have the ability to both simultaneously allow yourself to be very vulnerable with what you impart, with what you do, with what you allow to come to the table.

Randall Ryan:

And yet, you never lose yourself. It's an interesting juxtaposition. What is the mechanism that allows you to essentially throw all of yourself onto the table and throw yourself into a character, and allow all those personal vulnerabilities to come forth in the character and then still just be able to turn on and say, "Thanks. That was fun guys." And walk away.

Debra Wilson:

Sometimes, I do have a bit of a challenge walking away immediately, and they say, "Hey, you okay? You need a break?" And then, I just recalibrate. So, sometimes it does take me a minute. Even if the scene takes three seconds, four seconds, where I'm saying one word.  But the one word is very, very loaded like a no or a yes or anything else. And so, it's not a throwaway, it means everything. Because one word can be the emotional stretch and expanse of years of experience or years of pain in that one word. And so, my job is to serve the project.  Initially, I'm a storyteller. And people say voiceover and I say, yes. But first and foremost, before being a voiceover artist or a voice actor, I am a storyteller. And so, it's important for me to tell your story. And so I'm here to serve your project.

And I liken it like this.

You hire a babysitter and you go out for the night. And the babysitter calls their friends and lets the kids run around, and lets them do what they want while their friend comes over, and they drink a beer out of the fridge. And right before their guardian comes home, they put the kids in bed.  They wash their face quickly, brush their teeth and say “Shh. now, pretend you're sleeping.”  And so, they don't really pay attention. But an au pair says, "I will treat your children like they're my children." So, there is no phone that I have with me. No one is allowed over.  I read with them, I engage them, I help them with homework, I play with them, I stimulate them.  We watch something that is child-friendly, that is of your approval. I give them snacks that is of your approval. I bathe them. I put them in bed.  I read them a story. I tuck them in. And you come in to do the rest by tucking them in or seeing that they're asleep, safe and sound. And so for me, it's the same thing with somebody's story. When they want to tell the story, whether it's a video game or an animation or anything, I have to be your au pair.  I have to make sure you get everything you want so that you go “this is purely my vision. And little did I know that this would be the voice.”  Because a lot of times in voiceovers people are like, and especially with commercials, I don't know until I hear it.

 

Randall Ryan:

Yeah.

 

Debra Wilson:

You know, they can describe something, but it's like, mmm…I'll know when I hear it.  And so, my responsibility is when I book something to be able to support and help you carve out that thing that is definitive and why: the emotion, the psychology behind it, and ask you every question to go “why,” so that being comes to life and you go, "Fuck, that's what I’m…that’s it.  That's it." So I ask questions, and I make sure that I dig into myself on that psychological level and on that emotional level and that cutting-that-self-open level, so that that being becomes so three-dimensional that you go, "This is what I had in mind. And now it's off the paper."

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

Debra Wilson:

It's jumped off the paper, it's jumped off the pages and it's exactly what you want.  Which makes it easier when you're directing me, because now, that is a full body that has depth and breadth. You can go, "I want this, I want this. I don't want this. I don't want this. Try it this way, try it this way, do it this way, do it this way. Don't do it this way, blah, blah, blah." And that being is just there to tell their story. And they know that you are guiding them and helping them tell their story. They know that directors and game developers are there to help them tell their story so that they can be alive. And so, it's easier for me to be directed by people who are like, "I want this, I don't want this. I want this. I don't want this. Okay, do this, do this, do this, do this."  Because it's not a dictation to me. It's not a dictatorship. It's a matter of, this was your baby. And now, I am here to serve your project. And in serving your project, I want to be all that you expect and all that you want and all that you need, and beyond that. So that you go, I'm so proud of this.  I look forward to doing this. And everyone goes, "Yes, this role is fulfilled." And it becomes something that's important.

I did a video game and I had no idea how massive and internationally prolific this game is, and it's called Destiny and Destiny 2.

 

Randall Ryan:

Right.

Debra Wilson:

I had no idea who Savathun was. I didn't play the game. I don't know anything about it. I've heard the title. And then, when I got the role, I still didn't know. And so, I was just bringing the humanity to this being because people have the tendency to use the word evil; she's evil.  And I'm like, well, I don't believe that anyone's evil.  I believe that they have an intention that you just don't understand. She has to be that loner who does what she needs to do in order to reach a particular goal, whether people understand it or not.  And that, in and of itself, has an emotional toll on a being, to know that no one is with them. And so, they turn their back on everything as everything is turned their back on them. So, instead of being just this evil, non-emotional being, the psychopath, it's because you have not been loved. 

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And so, I'm always bringing those human elements because I don't care if you're playing the sentient being or a tree, the moment it speaks it has human emotions. The moment it speaks!  And therefore, there isn't any role that I can't bring my emotional and psychological self to.

Randall Ryan:

I agree.

Debra Wilson:

This game went nuts when it came out, because it came out on Tuesday, 2/22/22.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson: And I got massively solicited on Cameo to do cameos as this Savathun. And a fan had to tell me the lore of Savathun and the lore of Destiny and how it's played, and the massive groups that play it across the world in clans.  And it was really powerful, and it was really wonderful. And some people even came to me on Cameo, some people like, "I'm going through something and I need the strength of Savathun. Would you do her voice and strengthen me and somehow, or offer advice or share with me?"

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

Debra Wilson:

And so, it's been a great vehicle that people have emotionally used this character to go, "I need something in my life," or "I feel like I'm missing something and I want to connect."  And I've been able to take what I do in the booth outside of my booth and authentically share with people. And that to me was the greatest gift of all.

Randall Ryan:

Were you the original person doing Savathun or did you replace somebody else?

Debra Wilson:

There was no Savathun.  Savathun had been talked about in Destiny lore for 10 years, 10 years.

Randall Ryan:

So, you are the original?

Debra Wilson:

Yes. There's just been dialogues and monologues of Savathun, but she had never been a playable character and no one had ever really seen her. So, she's in the lore. But this was the first time, Destiny 2 The Witch Queen was actually, oh, my God, we get a chance to really see Savathun because she's all throughout the lore. But now, we get a chance to see who she is and what her voice is.

Randall Ryan:

Interesting. Interesting. The other question I kind of have along the same line of the first one was: given that you at least, again, to the consciousness of someone like myself came up through comedy, what was your love first? Was it literally just acting and storytelling? Was it comic? Was it just performance in general? Because you also sing, all of that.  What took you from childhood, essentially, to this is what I'm going to do.

Debra Wilson:

You're absolutely right. It was acting and storytelling. I loved being other people. I loved being other people for reasons that had been dark, because of childhood trauma. And I loved being other people because I was fascinated with how I could glom on and absorb.  I was relentless when it came to glomming on something and absorbing.  I learned how to do an English accent by the time I was like five years old.

 

Randall Ryan:

Wow.

 

Debra Wilson:

My parents thought it was a hoot..

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

…because it was a Diet Rite soda commercial, and the woman on the commercial was British.  And I glommed onto wanting to do accents. And because of falling in love with that English accent from that commercial, I wanted to watch The Monkees for Davey Jones. And I wanted to watch H.R. Pufnstuf, and anything that had a British accent.  British comedies, the Beatles, any interviews with people that were Brits.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Any British movie.  So, for me, I was glomming on and I glommed onto character actors. I glommed onto those that were the bad men of character actors in the 1970s and '80s. I had to be the only one my age, who was 13, 14 years old, who would buy a TV Guide.  And back then, TV Guide would do a cast list after it did the synopsis.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And I would circle the cast lists to see who these actors were and watch them. And I realized for me at an early age psychologically, I was also the only kid that I knew that had a subscription to Psychology Today at the age of 14.

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs) Who were some of those favorite actors that you circled?

Debra Wilson:

Oh, my God, William Smith, Anthony Zerbe. Oh, my God. They're just so many of them. Juliet Lewis's father, Jeffrey Lewis. I was obsessed with him. I was also obsessed with JB Perry. JB Perry turned out was Matthew Perry's father. Robert Pine, who turns out that he's Chris Pine's father.  I was obsessed with Robert Pine. Kevin Spacey, he did a series called Wise Guy on CBS, and it was a recurring role for a whole season.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And he was a psychopath and it was amazing. And so, I loved watching these psychopaths because I knew that there was emotional and psychological damage.  There was a kinship for me because I felt my own emotional and psychological damage. Of course, they acted out on it, and they were my escape. Their pain was so great that they did what they did.

Gillian Brashear:

Fascinating. Were there women as well?

Debra Wilson:

Not so much women because it was the '70s and the '80s.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

More than anything else, you had Wonder Woman, you had Charlie's Angels.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

So, more than anything else, you had women that were heroes and women that were badasses.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Women's lib, all of it, you know?  And then, you had women in comedy who I fell in love with because of what they do. Ruth Buzzi!

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

Joanne Worley…

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

…who became heroes. Carol Burnett!

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

It was just... I was obsessed. Lucille Ball. So, for me, they were the other spectrum of not just comedy but heroes.  They were prolific.   Joan Rivers, who I ended up working with, on a series with her. People like that who caught me as women who were coming to the forefront, and who had to deal with the men who said, "Women aren't that funny."

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

They said it behind closed doors while they were smoking their cigarettes. And it was general knowledge in the industry that women weren't funny; that's why women never got the chance.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

But yet, Joan Rivers still was the first woman to ever host the Tonight Show.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

It was brilliant. And her symbol was always a bee. And the reason her symbol and jewelry and everything else was a bee was because according to the physics and the physiology of a bee, its body weight is too massive for its small wings, proportionately, so it's not supposed to fly.  But tell that to the bumblebee that's already flying.

 

Randall Ryan:

Right.

 

Debra Wilson:

And her thing was, you can't tell a bumblebee that it can't fly. And that's what she was, and that's what she was symbolic of. She was an amazing human being and I loved working with her.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And she also cut herself open in order to share.  I was her audience warmup as well.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Wow!

 

Debra Wilson:

And because I volunteered. I said, "I want to do the warmup. I want to do the warmup." And what I did was I memorized everybody's name in the audience. So that by the time she came ou, I introduced them individually.

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Gillian Brashear:

That is fascinating.

Debra Wilson:

And here's the also thing about kismet: my manager at the time's name was Joan Rosenberg. And Joan River's married name is Joan Rosenberg.

Randall Ryan:

I did not know that.

Debra Wilson:

And so, at the audition she just said, (as Joan Rivers) "Oh, I like her. Hire her. Yes. Oh, she's the one. She's the one.{

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

“I love her already. She's great." And that's how that came to be. Because when I auditioned, I was doing improv. For me, it was like, it doesn't matter whether I get this.  And I think going into acting, it wasn't a matter of where's my agent and what do I have to do? And I'm going to get this and I'm going to make this. It was a very lackadaisical attitude that I've always had and I still have. Like it'll come, and you just be yourself and have a good time. And that's a rarity because most people do the hustle thing.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And I have to admit, I never hustled. I never. I am 60 years old and I never had to hustle for work. When it didn't come I had to let it go. And that was a psychological and emotional challenge for me.  But I never tried to hustle for work and get that back. Never. And so, when the Joan Rivers thing happened, it was, I don't care if I get this. Right now, my audition is with Joan Rivers on a stage here at CBS Studios in New York on 11th Avenue and 57th Street.  The lights are on, I'm dressed for the audition and they're shooting my audition like it's a TV show.  Fuck it. I'm on TV with Joan Rivers right now. I don't give a fuck if I work this show!

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

I already have this. This moment is it for me. I did not care. This moment was it.  This moment was the job.  And if I do a great job here, I don't care because even if I don't book it, I don't go “what did I miss? What did I not do?”  I'm leaving it on the floor. I'm spilling it all on. And because I had been doing improv in New York in comedy theaters with troupes, she could throw stuff to me and I would throw it right back.  And I would joke with her and there was no audience there, but I would go to the cameraman, "Hi, what's your name? Okay. Try this, watch one. How did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then, you had to read a prompter, and then “Back to you Joan.”  And so, I played with her. It was Joan Rivers!

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

So, I conversed with her. It was never like, "Hi, Debra." And I was like, "Hi, Joan." No, "Hey, Joan, how are you today? We're going to have a great show, aren't we? Well, actually, you're going to have a great show. Aren't you? Okay, well I'm looking forward to it." And she's like, "Tell us about this, watch Debra.”  “Sure."  And I could sell ice to Eskimos at that point…

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

…because it was pretend.  It was the biggest fun pretend. That was the first time I went “this is amazing. And if I don't get it, that's fine.”  And I remember doing voiceovers in my friend's basement because I would hear these radio commercials with voiceovers and I would go and find magazines, and then read all of the text from the magazines, from the ads in the magazines.  And I would ask my friend: listen, you have a studio, a music studio. Would you just put music behind this and then put it on a cassette for me? And I would listen going, did I sound good enough, like it would be a real spot?  Yup. Okay. I'm done.  So, I never pursued it. But it was a matter of: could I be as good as someone I hear?  And did I feel it? And did it work? And I was very meticulous back then as well, because I wanted to sound just like everyone else. I wanted to be as professional as everyone else. And when I sounded that way, I was done.  Same thing with Joan Rivers.

Randall Ryan:

So, you talk about the hustle. You talk about the not-doing-the-hustle.

Debra Wilson:

Correct.

Randall Ryan:

How did the work initially come about? Because very few people, if lucky as even the right word, get that kind of  lucky where there's just enough work, especially initially, that they don't have to hustle.

Debra Wilson:

Here's how it started: working for the city of New York Parks and Recreation, decide to go downtown Manhattan because Young Guns was opening up.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Got a chance to see it, came out early, it was already in downtown. I was in the Village. Somebody was handing out flyers for a show. Improv at the beginning.  What do you mean improv? Oh, these guys that come out, they get suggestions from the audience and then they create comedy on the spot. That's really cool. Preface, I'd already gone to the high school of performing arts.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

But I didn't take it seriously.  Like, it was fun to be immersed in that. But like Joan Rivers…yes, I ended up booking the show. But if I didn't, it was like, this is an amazing experience.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

So, for me, I was always living to be in the experience in that moment. But I was like, I don't want to starve.  I don't want to have to work hard at this; I want to enjoy it. And the moment it's not fun for me. I'm like a three-year-old: I'm out and I cry. I don't want to do this.

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

So, I said, I'm not hustling for stuff like that. I'm not going to be a starving artist. People who have to do this for their art.  They're just passionate about it. I'm like, "Yeah, great for you. I like having food in my stomach, I don't know about you. I like a roof over my head and I like my jewelry." So, I went to the show. Everyone was with a group. I was very much a loner still.  And at one point the improv group goes, "Hey, we'd like a volunteer from the audience," which is a part of their show. No one would get up. People were pushing each other, no, you go, you go, you go.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

I had done theater. I came from the high school's performing arts.  So, for me, it was like, "Okay, let me just see what this is." Because I didn't know what improv was. So, for me, it was an experiment.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Because it was so “improv? What's improv? I don't know, come and see the show.: Went, raised my hand and it was only two rules, yield and don't deny.  So whatever happens, go along with everything.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Don't deny it, go along with everything. Great. So, there was an improv, they got all the suggestions from the audience and I'll never forget. It was a spy mystery movie and it was called The Game. The exercise was called Foreign Movie.  So, two of the improv troupe would sit down in the audience and they would dub what we were doing into English…

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

…while I mouthed gibberish. And the other actor who was in the troupe would mouth gibberish. And so, whatever these two said, we had to do.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

Unless we took over.  And then, whatever they said after that we would do. And so, it was a spy movie that took place in Paris on the Eiffel Tower. And at the end, we fall off. And that was the suggestion.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

So, for me, I was already in that mindset to have fun. I'm like, "Okay, only two rules to this game?  Fucking easy!”

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

Yield and don't deny. Go along with it.  I go along with everything. And so, for me, I got... like a child, I got immersed. So, it became very real for me.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

And so for me, I didn't see the humor in it because I wasn't trying to be funny. I was trying to do the improv, which was you’re a spy and you're going to fall off the Eiffel Tower.  But the people who are doing your voice are telling you. So, they're the vessel, they're filling my vessel.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

Just like every character that I do with voiceover fills my vessel and then it's commitment time. And that's exactly what happened.

 

Gillian Brashear:

Hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

The owner of the troupe said, "Listen, we don't have a lot of black people that do improv, and certainly not a lot of black women. Would you join the troupe?"  "No, I have a city job." Okay. But would you like to do a workshop, just for fun and do it some more? Like if you don't want to come back on-stage and do it and you don't want to join the troupe, let's do a workshop. On a Saturday, we're just all coming around.  We're playing and coming up with new ideas for games.” Okay, I'd like to sit around and meet you guys again and say hi again. Absolutely, after working with you. I did, there were three other black women there. And I went, what the fuck is this scam?

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

Debra Wilson:

And we all played. And I'm like, "This man is trying to get into black women's panties."

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

‘Cause there are only black women here. He's done it. Because that's what I thought. He must have done this with other women…

 

Randall Ryan:

Uh huh.

 

Debra Wilson:

…and got them on-stage. And it was like, "Hey, you know, come and play."

 

Gillian Brashear:

Mm hm.

Debra Wilson:

And then, pick the pussy he wants. That's what I felt.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

That's what I felt. He going to pick the pussy he wants, you know what I'm saying? Like a fucking box of Toblerone.

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs) Box of Toblerone!

Debra Wilson:

What ended up happening is everybody left, and it was just me and him. And I was like, “I'm going to have to beat this white man down. I'm going to have to beat this white man down in the rehearsal hall in Manhattan.”  And he said, "I just wanted to let you know that this was a professional audition."  They have picture and resume. But you, you get so into it and you listen and you pay attention, and you're not trying to force yourself. You know how to flow. You naturally do improv. We work on the weekends. It won't interfere with your city job and we make money.  You can bring friends. You can bring family. They get a chance to see you perform. If you do no other performance, think about it. We would love to have you in the troupe. You're a new addition,. you're a new dynamic, you're a black woman. We don't get a lot of black women that do improv.  You're going to bring a whole new dynamic to this all-white troupe. And you have your voice. I mean, your voice!  And I went, "okay."

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

A month later, amanager was there because she had a standup who was coming on after us. “Hey, you know what? You're really wonderful. I would really love to represent you.”  No, I don't do this professionally. This is fun. “You sure?” Mm hm. I don't do this. This is just fun, thank you very much.  The person she was representing was a man at the time.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

So anyway, troupes come and go and I'm learning how to write now. Oh, this is fun. 

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

So, I'm learning how to write and I'm already doing what I'm doing with the improv and this is great. We're writing sketches and we're writing improv pieces and things. And this is improv exercises and improv games. This is really great! One of the women in there, Nancy Murrah, God love her. I just adore this woman.  So, she ends up joining, it's an all-women's group called Significant Others. We write, we play, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We do some stuff. Nancy says, "Listen, I'm auditioning for a TV show. It's a pilot. I think you should audition with me." "Nancy. I don't do this professionally." "I know, you say that, but you're already been doing it professionally because you get paid for it.  And it's just a pilot, it may go nowhere, but it's going to be fun to audition. And you're not a threat because we work together. And I don't see your talent overshadowing mine. And I don't see my talent overshadowing yours.  But we worked together, because we had this Clarence Thomas sketch and it was hilarious. 

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

And she's like, "Let's do the Clarence Thomas sketch and going with our individual characters."

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

So, we did and we both booked it. And she said, "Now you're going to need a manager." She introduced me to her manager, which was the same woman I had turned down, years before.

 

Randall Ryan:

(laughs)

Gillian Brashear:

Wow, fantastic.

Debra Wilson:

And so, that's why I mean, I honestly, I stumbled my way up. And with voiceover: same thing.  Two things I always did as a kid, and I grew up doing, because people were fascinated: authentic baby crying and dogs, dog barking. Dog barking in the distance, growling dogs, fighting rottweilers, that kind of a thing. And I would run up behind my friends (snarls & growls).

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs) And I bet they loved that. I bet your friends really loved that. (laughs)

Debra Wilson:

Oh, yeah, they absolutely love that. I kept friends for a lifetime.

 

Randall Ryan & Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

 

Debra Wilson:

But what I would do is I would stand behind them and then grab them at the back of their knee.

Gillian Brashear:

Oh, my gosh, it'd be terrifying!

Debra Wilson:

It's terrifying.

Gillian Brashear:

Oh, my God, I'm surprised you didn't get hurt!

Debra Wilson:

I know it. But it was funny to me!  It was funny to me!  Someone laughed! And so, I was in the audience at a comedy theory at LaBrea, not in the audience. I was onstage because it was a young man named J. Keith van Straaten. And I was on the show What's My Line, and they brought out celebrities from the '50s and '60s and '70s, and that's my time period. So, they brought them out, they talked about their lives and what they're doing. And we had to guess who they were. And then, there was of course that chat interview from j. Keith van Straaten.  “And what are you up to now? And thanks very much.”  And then, there was a board like on the original show, not a wiper board, but cardboard.  And it had a frame as if it were a picture. And they would write their name when they came out.  Someone stood behind it and pulled the sign up so it looked like it disappeared.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

Debra Wilson:

And for me, it was like, when I looked at it the first thing I thought was this is a magic trick for a baby, like peek-a-boo. So, I did my baby giggles and my baby laugh. Little did I know that Paul Doherty, the Head of Cunningham-Escott-Slevin and Doherty…

 

Gillian Brashear:

Hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

…was in the audience because his client was J. Keith van Straaten.  He asked me to take a meeting. I met all their agents. They were sitting in a conference room. And all I was was like, "Well, okay, what do you want to hear?" For me, it was like I was five years old again.

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hm.

 

Debra Wilson:

"You want to hear my English accent?"  Because again, I had nothing to lose. 

 

Randall Ryan:

Mm hmm.

 

Debra Wilson:

I had nothing to lose except having fun. And I believe in being in the moment. And so, acting was in a kinship to me because it was always about being in the moment. And voiceover is in a kinship to me. about being in the moment, I've been with CESD almost two decades.

Randall Ryan:

Debra, one of the most fascinating things about you is that I always look up and I cannot believe how much time has gone by.  And I find you fascinating, I always have.

Debra Wilson:

Oh, thank you.

Randall Ryan:

You're just your own unique being and, both as an actor and as a person. And I think that's awesome.

Debra Wilson:

And it's not because of my tarantulas and scorpions?

Randall Ryan:

Yeah, I don't know.

 

Gillian Brashear:

(chuckles)

 

Randall Ryan:

Well, I live with tarantulas and scorpions, so I don't care.

Debra Wilson:

Okay. Well, see?

 

Gillian Brashear:

(laughs)

Randall Ryan:

That would probably be neither a draw nor a detriment.

 

Debra Wilson:

Okay.

 

Randall Ryan:

It's like, oh,oh you have these things. Okay, whatever.

Debra Wilson:

See?  There's the kismet.

Randall Ryan:

There's the kismet.

Debra Wilson:

There's the kismet all over again.

Randall Ryan:

There's the kismet.

Gillian Brashear:

I just want to say: in listening to your story about you, about all of these aspects of you, the pictures that were coming into my mind with your beautiful descriptions, honestly, it was breathtaking to hear everything that you had to say. And I feel so fortunate to have been able to work with you as I have.  I really thank you for that.

Debra Wilson:

Thank you, goddess.

Gillian Brashear:

Yeah, I look forward to it.

Debra Wilson:

Here's to the next now with us, yes?

Gillian Brashear:

Yeah, absolutely.

Debra Wilson:

Yes.

Gillian Brashear:

Randall.

Randall Ryan:

Sure.

Gillian Brashear:

All right. (laughs)

Randall Ryan:

(laughs) Like you do.

Gillian Brashear:

All right.

Randall Ryan:

Debra. Thank you as always.

Debra Wilson:

My pleasure.

Randall Ryan:

Thank you for doing this. And we need to do this again. And we might even need to do it again while we're not recording.

 

Debra Wilson:

(chuckles)

 

Randall Ryan:

And there you have it. The force of nature, that is Debra Wilson. Let's talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear: actor, director, visionary.  And me, Randall Ryan: owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually…anywhere. And we also can both be found at www.thevoicedirector.world. If you got comments or questions, or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com.  You can find us at all of your favorite places to get podcasts: iTunes, Stitcher, Apple podcast, Podbean. If they have podcasts, chances are we're there. Thanks for listening. And Let's Talk Voiceover again, real soon.