Dr. Cam and Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein take a deep dive into the impact of gender bias and sexism on young girls. They discuss how societal messages affect girls' confidence, self-worth, and opportunities. Dr. Finkelstein shares powerful insights on validating girls' experiences, teaching self-advocacy, and redefining their value beyond appearance. The conversation also highlights the importance of helping girls express emotions like anger, recognize microaggressions, and take up space in a world that often tries to...
Dr. Cam and Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein take a deep dive into the impact of gender bias and sexism on young girls. They discuss how societal messages affect girls' confidence, self-worth, and opportunities. Dr. Finkelstein shares powerful insights on validating girls' experiences, teaching self-advocacy, and redefining their value beyond appearance. The conversation also highlights the importance of helping girls express emotions like anger, recognize microaggressions, and take up space in a world that often tries to shrink them. Plus, they explore how parents can raise empathetic sons who challenge gender norms.
WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE
- How gender bias and societal expectations impact girls' confidence
- Why teaching girls to express anger and take up space is crucial
- The power of validating girls’ experiences and building self-advocacy skills
- How to raise sons who recognize and challenge gender bias
- Practical ways parents can help their daughters navigate sexism
5 KEY TAKEAWAYS FOR PARENTS OF TEENS
- Girls receive constant messages of invisibility and unworthiness. Parents play a key role in reshaping these narratives.
- Validating girls' experiences is essential. It helps them feel heard and strengthens their self-esteem.
- Teaching girls self-advocacy starts early. Encouraging them to speak up and set boundaries builds confidence.
- Society often prioritizes masculine traits. It’s important to teach girls (and boys) that all traits have value.
- Empowering girls requires action. Parents must actively challenge bias, model emotional expression, and foster resilience.
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RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
- Free Resource: Download 10 Mindful Practices for Preteens PDF
- Exclusive Offer: Work with Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein by visiting Jo-Ann Finkelstein
EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 Understanding Gender Bias and Its Impact
06:05 Empowering Girls in a Biased World
14:10 Redefining Value Beyond Appearance
19:07 Building Confidence and Advocacy Skills
22:11 Empowering Girls to Express Emotions
25:00 Teaching Girls to Take Up Space
28:25 Recognizing and Addressing Microaggressions
32:49 Navigating Gender Bias and Self-Advocacy
37:11 Raising Empathetic Sons
42:24 Key Takeaways for Parents
CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein
- Website: Jo-Ann Finkelstein
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CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell
- Website: AskDrCam.com
- Instagram: @DrCamCaswell
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- YouTube: Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam
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THE FULL TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Cam (00:00)
In today's episode, we tackle a critical issue that affects countless young girls, sexism and gender bias. Did you know that as of 2023, women still earn about 82 cents for every dollar earned by men or that women hold just 27 % of executive positions in Fortune 500 companies despite making up nearly half of the workforce? The reality is that gender bias starts early and can significantly impact girls' confidence, opportunities and futures. That's why I'm looking forward to talking to Dr. Joanne Finkelstein, a clinical psychologist and author of Sexism and Sensibility, Raising Empowered Resilient Girls in the Modern World. Dr. Finkelstein is here to share practical strategies for protecting our daughters from these pervasive issues, fostering their resilience and empowering them to navigate a world where gender bias still unfortunately exists.
Welcome Dr.. Finkelstein.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (00:59)
It's so great to be here, Dr. Cam.
Dr. Cam (01:02)
So good to have you. So this is such an important topic. Let's start first. Why are you interested in this? What kind of inspired you to talk about and help girls deal with gender bias and sexism?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (01:16)
I grew up in Canada. You know, I live in the States, but I grew up in Canada with three brothers. Canada, know, hockey is a national obsession. So I like to tell this story because it didn't make it into the book, but it has become family lore. And my family was really surprised that it didn't make it into the book. In any case. My three brothers, like they love to play hockey and I wanted to play too. So I asked my parents for, you know, a hockey stick. And to my delight, they bought me one. But to my horror, it was bright pink and looked like a toy version of my brother's. And by the way, you will find out along the way, I don't have anything against pink, but that is not what I was looking for, right?
Dr. Cam (01:47)
But it was a big statement.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (02:09)
It was a big statement and I've worked with girls and women for the last 24 plus years in my private practice. And what I discovered is that my pink hockey stick is every girl's story, right? Girls constantly get messages that make them feel unseen, unheard, not taken seriously. And I witness, right, on a daily basis how harmful these messages are to my patient's sense of self and sense of potential. The messages aret hey seem small, right? But they're like tiny psychological paper cuts that accumulate and become these festering wounds of self-doubt over time. And growing up, when I would get upset about gender differences, people insisted that they didn't exist or they'd say, you're too sensitive or stop being so dramatic. And all your listeners out there, they know this, right? Because they're classic comments. But at the time, I didn't know that. So in any case,
Fast forward to avoid criticism, I learned to hide my feelings and it wasn't until years later when I was doing a master's degree that I really began to understand that experience. And it happened because I mentioned in a paper for my developmental psychology class that I'd been accused of overreacting when I felt demeaned. And the professor scribbled in the margins, that's what people say to talk girls out of their feelings. It was such a validating moment for me.
Dr. Cam (03:34)
That's great.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (03:35)
So basically, to get to a long story, validating girls' experiences and opening parents' eyes to the effects of sexism and gender bias are why I wrote the book. There two reasons why I
Dr. Cam (03:50)
I love that. And I think awareness is so important because I see even women being biased and sexist to other women because it is so great, you know, just pounded in our head. And I can remember, because I mean, anybody that is an adult woman has either experienced most likely a lot or knows people that have experienced extreme sexism and gender bias. And I remember pointing out at one point at a job that the traits of a leader as defined of what a leader is are traits that define the typical best traits of a man and what defines a bitch as a woman. You're, you, you have no chance. Yeah, you have no chance of being a leader because if you're a woman and have the traits of a leader, then you are disliked so much. So it's,
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (04:32)
That is exactly right. And it's true. I mean, it's bears out in the research. Right, or if you do become a leader, right, you are jumping through so many hoops to not be perceived as a bitch and then often you are, are, you know, sort of like what's happening with Kamala Harris and, you know, people are saying you're too soft. So you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Dr. Cam (04:49)
I think calling attention to these and also calling attention and they've shown so many times that actually some of the traits that are typical, there are gender differences. We've got to be real with that. But I think what it is is what we value is more of the masculine and what we use is insults. Like you fight like a girl, you run like a girl, you do this like a girl. They're insults rather than showing some of the strengths that are typical feminine traits actually are amazing in different roles, but we undermine them. So let's start with, we've got our teen daughter and she's living in high school and she's getting these messages already. We already know that STEM is still something that girls are kind of looked over on. We know that, again, the sports are separated, everything like that. So how do we as parents start empowering our girls to see their worth?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (05:42)
That's a great question. And that's sort of my whole book. So let's unpack it. You know, I think the most important thing to remember is that we're playing the long game here. We can't just say, you know, the culture's broken, you're not broken. Right. But we we want them to understand that many of the messages that they're getting are informing their choices.
Dr. Cam (06:08)
Good! Let's go! Read to us your book!
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (06:34)
For instance, clothing. I know a lot of people are really interested when their kids are becoming teenagers about their wearing crop tops and showing a lot of cleavage and wearing heels before parents are ready for the kids to wear heels and all of that. And so we're trying to help them understand, we're between wanting them to make their own choices, feel good in their own bodies, embrace their budding sexuality, or at least be unashamed of it. But seeing themselves through a system that values them, that values women packaged for a marketplace of male desire leaves little room for pimples and tummy rolls. So we're trying to help them understand that As I once said to my daughter, a crop top or a cigar is just a cigar, but a crop top Brazilian wax and something else is, you know, not as free choice as it seems. And so over time, we're trying to help them see that the culture doesn't always respect women, that the culture values their their appearance and their sexuality over all of their other characteristics and that we're not going to let that happen and that we want them to see, we want them to make their own choices, we understand that feeling good in their body is really important and that nobody should be able to take that away from them. But at times it makes them unsafe, it makes them a target, and it makes them focus more on their bodies than on other things in their life that are important.
Dr. Cam (08:34)
Now, Dr. Drew, I want to unpack this a little bit because I think this is something that I, as a mom of a daughter, I've struggled with a lot because even in that, when our kids want to wear whatever is popular, right? And it is. They like to wear these cute little crop tops and they want to wear these things. we're like, you can't wear those because those sexualize you. But that's sexist right there because who are they sexualizing them to men? So we now have to change the way we dress to accommodate What men may think of us rather than to dress the way we feel comfortable and confident in that upsets me The focus is more on you can't wear something that might tempt some guy rather than teaching our men Not to treat women like that like women have to protect themselves rather than teaching men not to mistreat women. Why is that? You can tell I'm passionate about that.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (09:38)
Well, yeah, I mean, and I am too, and I'm glad to hear that in your voice because it's really not fair. And I think what we want parents, first of all, to understand is that people in everything or women in everything from bikinis to burkas are harassed or assaulted. So there's no research that shows that there is an association between what you wear and being assaulted. But we do want kids to understand that they may be treated differently. They may be seen as not as smart. And so we, you know, I think we can say to them exactly what you just said. It's not fair. You should not be responsible for anybody else's reactions to you. And I want you to know that you might be.
And so they're making the choices of how they dress from an informed place. And you know, by the way, most of the kids, until at least their later teens, what kids tell me all the time is, I'm not dressing for guys. And they're really not, right? They're dressing for their peers. They're dressing because that's the trend. This is what teen brands are selling. And they wanna fit in.
Dr. Cam (10:58)
They feel empowered when they wear this outfit. They feel empowered. And I think them being able to show who they are and feel empowered is so important. So I'm curious from your perspective, is it more important to say you shouldn't wear that because this might be how people see you or you should wear that because you feel empowered? Here's how to handle it when people treat you poorly.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (11:29)
I mean, I think it's really, you I don't like to tell people how to parent, but I, I, yes, we could forbid them to wear clothes they like and that help them fit in, but that does little for our relationship with them, Right, and it makes it us against, you know, rather than make it us against the culture, it makes it us against them. And the fight.
Dr. Cam (11:45)
or for their confidence.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (11:56)
over autonomy in general and clothing in particular, it just harms too many parent relationships. you know, my mantra is to educate, not control. And again, the long game over time, we want them to understand that the world is trying to package them in a certain way. And we want them to tune into what makes them feel good, what makes them comfortable. And so what makes them comfortable in the beginning is fitting in, right? And so, you know, if, so if they're gonna wear that, you know, and you normally don't want it, like as they're walking out the door, if you say something, you will shame them and they will be conscious of their body. So it's like, we want to be having these conversations in advance and like throughout the book I talk about all of the ways we can have conversations with our kids that are more abstract, that don't target them, that help them think in critical ways. And so yeah, you might say, I wouldn't tie it to the clothes, but I would say just being a girl, you might be walking to the store, you might be walking to a friend's house and you might get catcalled. Or how do you feel when you get catcalled, you know, depending on the age of the kid.
And you start a conversation about things that you can do, right? And there are ways we, there are often the safest thing to do is to just have them walk on, to ignore it. Sometimes that can escalate it because they want a reaction. So maybe you nod, but of course, a lot of kids and a lot of women, right? After the fact, they're like, I wish I had said this. I wish I had said that. And so you might give them three things that they can have up their sleeve if they deem it to be safe enough, like the guy's on the third floor and your ride is pulling up, then you can say, you know, is that the way you talk to your mom? Whatever it is, there's a variety of ways that I outline in the book that they can respond to a cat caller or to somebody who's making them feel bad about just existing.
Dr. Cam (13:59)
I'm thinking as we're talking about this, go, we right now are falling into the sexism, gender bias trap because we went right to appearance when we're talking about women. We did. We're women. We went right there. So how do we help our kids, our girls see themselves as far more valuable than their appearance and help them because right now when we protect our girls from so much, we're just continuing the sexism because we're protecting them from what's out there rather than helping them and helping them break through it. Right? So how do we empower our girls to see themselves for the value that they are, which is not this surface level appearance, which the world leads us to believe is our only value.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (15:13)
Right. And one of the reasons we went right there is because globally speaking, girls believe their most important asset is their appearance. Right. They're seeing it all over television. So, you know, one of the things is starting from when they're very young, we just don't comment on their appearance. And I know it's very natural to do that, A, because it's so ingrained in us.
Dr. Cam (15:21)
Of course, because that's what they've grown up to learn.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (15:41)
be because they just are so cute to us, right? And so we want to say, you're so beautiful. But, know, always be body neutral. Don't focus on their body as much as possible. When you do focus on their body, make it about what their bodies can do, how they function, not how they look, right? You can start with your own body. my gosh, you have a dog that loves to be chased. Like I'm so lucky that I have these really strong legs that allow me to chase Rover, you know? What can your body do? And then as they get older, because we're talking about adolescents now, right, you're focusing on their character, their effort that they make, things that they weren't born with necessarily, or that they can apply in a mirror.
Let's say there are times we can tell our kids they're beautiful, right? I mean, you don't want to like suppress it all of the time. There are times when. Well, you know what the thing is, it does.
Dr. Cam (17:17)
Yeah, because then they think they're ugly. If you're never told that they're beautiful, they'll go right to, must be ugly.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (17:26)
Well, the thing is the rest of the world is doing that for us. They're always commenting on their cute outfit and their cute nose. And so I think parents really don't have to fill in that much in that area. But what they can do, like if they've just had a big belly laugh with their daughter and they say, you are so beautiful, or they've just had this like incredible discussion about climate change and they say, you are so beautiful, then she knows you mean all of her.
And when they're balled up in tears and they're saying, I'm ugly, of course it's our natural instinct to say, what are you talking about? You are so beautiful. But that just sort of emphasizes that pretty is important. And we don't want to do that. And they don't believe us anyway, because if they think they're ugly, they're getting the message from their peers. They're getting messages from social media that they don't fit some standard. And so really we want to talk to them about there's these crazy standards out there.
Dr. Cam (18:08)
Correct.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (18:26)
and you may fit them or you may not fit them, but that's not what's important. What's important is that you, you know, and it's like, of course you want to fit in, you want to be beautiful. I personally think you're incredibly beautiful, but that's something you have to come to know on your own, right? Because they're just, they're not going to believe us if we just say you're beautiful. They don't.
Dr. Cam (18:47)
So what are some skills that we want to help our girls develop that sometimes gets overlooked with girls to help empower them to be that, to be a strong human being, to be a confident human being and to self advocate. That's a big one.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (19:06)
That's a big one. Yeah, I think one of the things that I talk about in the book is that girls don't grow up with a healthy sense of entitlement, right? When we think of the word entitlement, we usually think of it pejoratively, like it's somebody who's too demanding. But girls are actually not demanding enough. And that, Dr. Kam, starts in third grade. Really, there's research that shows by third grade girls stop asking for as much as boys, especially when they're negotiating with a man, right? So in one, they're negotiating for their favorite stickers and they can ask for anything they want, but they ask for two fewer than boys do. And here's the kicker, this reflects the gender gap in negotiation that we see in adulthood, right? So yes, we want, there's all kinds of fit all kinds of ways that we can that we are teaching them not to do that. And there are all kinds of ways that we can like I like to call it our and our parenting replace or recognize and replace. And so one of the things we can do is make sure you brought up advocating, right? Make sure that they're advocating for themselves. When they go out for dinner at the restaurant when they're at the vet. if they have a question, right? And you're working up to, from the time they're little, with them being able to speak out loud and hear their own voices. The other thing we do is we teach them to be likable more than we teach them to have the need for respect.
Another thing, they don't feel entitled to money. Right? Why? Because we don't talk to girls about money as much as we talk to boys. We actually don't pay them as much for chores, research shows. We don't save as much for college. I know. And one more thing is voice, right? Which is also what you're getting at with advocating is why don't we, why don't they feel as entitled to have a voice because we interrupt them. Men and women interrupt women more, right? And so if you live, if you have a daughter and there are men in the house, statistically speaking, she is being interrupted more than her brother. And so we can say, hey, wait a minute, I noticed you were being interrupted or, you know, just sort of alert brother when he's dominating the conversation and you can teach her it's okay to speak up. You will be interrupted in life. That is sometimes what happens. And we need to help you speak up because your voice is really important and what you have to say is very meaningful.
Dr. Cam (22:10)
I think that is so key because when we're raising kids, when we're raising girls, as parents, we have to make sure we listen to their voice too. I think we shut them down, especially if they sound like they're whining or they're sad, we shut down their sadness. We definitely shut down anger. One thing I've noticed is that girls struggle to express anger. It goes into tears. I know personally that's what I do because anger wasn't allowed for girls. so giving them freedom to be angry and express that anger right there, I think is so empowering.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (22:48)
Yes, I'm so glad you said that because, you know, good is the gold standard for girls in a way it isn't for boys and anger is not good. Right. And so I actually had a mom contact me after she read the book. Recently, she emailed me and said, I just read your book. And my God, I realized that I was shutting down my daughter's anger and strong opinions more than my sons, even though my son is more critical, even though my son has stronger opinions. And so what she did is she went to her daughter and said, I think this is what's happening. And I don't know why it's happening. I think maybe, you know, girls aren't supposed to have strong opinions. I know that girls with strong opinions often get shut down. So I'm having this like internalized sexist reaction. And her daughter started to cry from the recognition because she knew something was off. She would complain mom didn't listen to her, but it wasn't quite that. And so there was this real reparative moment where her mom could say, I'm doing this. And then, you know, it opens up space for the daughter to say, hey, mom, I think this is happening rather if it happens again, rather than it turn into this big fight, you never listen and stomp out of the room. And so, yeah, when one of the ways that I outline is tolerating girls' tolerating their anger, right? Which doesn't mean tolerating rudeness, but it does mean knowing that you get uncomfortable with their anger.
Dr. Cam (24:19)
It's so important because women need to know that they can say no. I think women get raised to be people pleasers because they get in less trouble when they just comply. I don't see men apologize for every little thing as much as I see women apologizing for like everything. I think women learn to make themselves small so they don't get in the way of other people.
How do we teach our girls to take up space?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (24:59)
I'm writing a sub-staff newsletter right now about modesty, because when we hear the word modesty, we sort of think of it as like so last century with like the long dresses and the high collars. Right. And but really there are all these other ways that we're teaching behavioral modesty, right? So that we and that's all part of being good, right? We ask girls to downplay their accomplishments so that they don't seem conceited. We ask them to, you know, for like the gentle handshakes and the soft-spokenness, like they're rewarded for that because it's so feminine, right? And so there's, we expect this demureness from them and that infiltrates everything. And so when they do speak up or when they do have something they want to say or do, they apologize first. Like, I'm so sorry that I want this or I'm so sorry that I need this, right?
Dr. Cam (26:10)
It's hard. I, I noticed even with me, I will giggle after I say something that is either controversial or anything like that, just to, and I hate when I do that because I don't want to do it, but I, it's so instinctual to soften whatever I just said, to kind of, it is, it is my apology. It's my way apologizing for saying something that I don't need to apologize for.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (26:27)
I wrote a book about sexism and I still find myself people pleasing. And it's like it's it's because, you know, it's something that right from the time kids are little, we are rewarding girls for their cooperation and their collaboration and with boys. We don't teach that as much, right? And they actually come to see, like when we expect that from boys, it can start to seem emasculating. And, you know, so we, all the time we say, girls can be anything boys can be. Because like you were saying in the beginning, we value the masculine over the feminine, right? We value baseball over fashion. We value, you know, understanding finance over understanding intimacy, right? Right. And we talk to, and we talk, look, we use many more emotion-focused words with girls as infants than we do with boys. And with boys, we use more achievement-related language like proud, win, best. But of course, those are things, you know, being able to be, to own your sense of competitiveness and also being able to be emotional are important for everybody. So why are we doing this really binary thing? Because it's unconscious, because it's so much of what we learn, because we are magnifying these very small differences that we see in infants when they're born, right? But normally, but you know, research shows if you don't actually play into those differences, they disappear.
Dr. Cam (28:03)
How do we teach our girls to recognize these microaggressions against women? How do we teach them to recognize those and how to stand up for themselves in a way that, I mean, this isn't about being suddenly nasty or rude because that completely feeds into the stereotype too, right? Don't become a Karen. So how do we teach our girls to be assertive in situations where they feel like they're being mistreated.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (29:01)
In the book, I tell the story about how I first introduced sexism to my daughter, right? And in the book, I call it a sexism detector. We want it to be sort of like a smoke detector that it only goes off when it's actually needed. But because it can be hard, it can be really hard to tell if something's sexist, right? Because often it's so invisible or it's very subtle. In the past, it used to be much more, maybe it was more obvious. And it's more subtle today because we have movements like Me Too and because we have books like Sexism and Sensibility. So a lot of it is sort of going underground, but just because it's more subtle does not make it less damaging. So I was much more hesitant with my daughter to talk about sexism than with my son because I didn't want to make her feel inferior. I didn't want her to feel like a target, right? So basically what happened is we were watching MasterChef Jr. as a family and the first season she was like, the girl's gonna win. I think the girl's gonna win. I really want the girl to win. And you know, the girl didn't win. And then this went on for several seasons and like we were watching reruns so like we could sort of plow through it. And each season I could see like her hope diminish. And eventually I was like, what am I doing?
There's so many obvious signs of sexism, obvious to me, but not to little her. So I started to say, you know what? There's something going on here and the girl's not winning in part, I think, because all the judges are men. And they're probably not doing it on purpose, but they're identifying with the boys. And so I picked out things like, do you see how they say to the boy, my God, this is an amazing dish, I can't wait to visit your restaurant when you get older. And to the girls, they would say, wow, this is an amazing dish. Is this a fluke or could you do it again? Right. And then you wonder why every woman that walks in my office has imposter syndrome. So basically over time, we're teaching them, we're pointing out an everyday life because the world gives us endless teachable moments. Right.
We're saying, wow, did you notice that the waiter did not make eye contact with me until he realized that I was paying and going to be giving the test.
You're saying they often think that the man is gonna pay and so they're not nice to the woman or they're making these assumptions. And that's something that you're gonna experience in your life from time to time and I just want you to be aware of it. Right? And we can talk about it when it happens. Because if you bring it into the home and you say that you know that gender bias and sexism exists and it's not okay, but it's not about them, it's about the culture. here we are, we're trying to fix the culture and it is getting better over time. You always wanna balance the darkness with hope.
Dr. Cam (32:18)
Right. Here's the challenge though, too, that I see is when you are a girl or a woman and you point out things like that, that feel biased rather than people, men often, even women, self-correcting, they turn it around as you're being too sensitive or I've been left out of meetings because it's like, well, we can't be ourselves if there's a woman there, because now we can't be ourselves, which means what? Right? Now we have to be careful that we're not sexist. So that is a challenge too, because you might get left out of the circle or you might get kind of labeled if you make a big deal out of being treated unequally.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (32:51)
Part of it is every child is different and some kids are going to feel more comfortable standing up for themselves and some aren't. Right. So the big thing that I want to get across to all girls is it's not them. Right. They do not need fixing. The culture needs fixing. Right. But that they are. So we're trying to intervene before they really internalize all of this stuff. And that hopefully over time, as it becomes more acceptable in the culture, and it already is, they will feel comfortable standing up. And if they can, if they can be, if they can employ bystander intervention, which just means speaking up when it happens to somebody else, then when it happens to them, they are more likely not to think this was my fault. This was something I asked for. This was something I did wrong.
I shouldn't have said that to him. I shouldn't have looked at him like this. I shouldn't have gone home with him, right? So the more we can talk about it, the more they'll feel like they can stand up for it. But we also want them to, we wanna give them permission to walk away when they feel like they can't stand up for themselves, when they feel like it's dangerous.
Right? We just want them to know, like that's what I started to say before. If we bring it into the home, they'll even if they can't say anything there or they don't feel comfortable saying anything there, they can always come home and talk to us because we've already let them know. We know this exists. You did not ask for this. This is not your responsibility to fix, but I want to hear about it.
Dr. Cam (35:02)
It's basically protecting them from being gaslit. Right? Do you think that's part of it? And there I just giggled. It's part of, so it's protecting them from, and what you're saying is it's, so they're not internalizing it. They're not as impacted when people say something by taking it personally. They can separate and say, that person is having issues with me being a woman.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (35:07)
Essentially. Essentially.
Dr. Cam (35:32)
It has nothing to do with me being a woman. It has nothing to do with me personally.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (35:34)
Right, like in the book, right, and you're right, like a lot of, it happens so often that we really can't react to every little thing, right? So we're giving them the tools to just sort of swiftly decode what's happening in the moment. But you know, I interviewed a group of eighth graders for the book and they were like, it's fine. I mean, I don't like when he snaps my bra strap, but it's fine.
Dr. Cam (35:44)
No, it's too right. That's crazy.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (36:03)
And the thing is, what we're trying to have girls understand is like, yes, there are times you have to brush it off and I want you to know it's not fine because over time, research shows that this affects your self-esteem and your sense of potential. It places so much focus on your body that you can't focus on other things.
Dr. Cam (36:26)
Yeah, that's really important to keep that message going. I think too, and everything you've been saying, I haven't gotten the gist of that, but making sure this isn't about blame either. This isn't about men are bad, men are evil, men are, this is not about that at all. I think it's just pointing out that this is the way that we've all been raised to believe and that it's going to take time to change that belief that it's not the intent isn't sometimes it is, but the intent isn't to be sexist more than it is just completely unaware. Do you feel like that's fair to say?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (37:10)
You mean among boys and men? Yeah, I think right. I think actually this sort of patriarchal culture that our kids are growing up in, it hurts boys as much as it hurts girls. And what I've come to understand being in private practice for so long and talk and, know, I have many boys and men that are patients too, that we need to change the culture, not just because it will help our daughters. but because it will help our sons too, right? So what we're doing is we're cutting off half of their humanity, right? If you can't express your, if you're a woman or a girl, you know, an adolescent and you can't express your autonomy and your competitiveness and your authority, that's cutting off an important part of who you are.
And if you're a boy and you can't express your emotionality and your wish for connection and cooperation, that's cutting off half your humanity. And so I want this as much for boys as I do for girls.
Dr. Cam (38:19)
Let's go there real quick because I think we mentioned at the very beginning, there's, it's put on the women to make change, right? And we end up adapting ourselves to fit into a man's world. How do we raise sons that are less or aren't sexist?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (38:45)
That's a really good question and I do have a whole section in the book on that. You know, I think for one, especially when you're a teenage boy, girls have a lot of power over you. And so often the Me Too movement doesn't make sense to them. They feel like they're being blamed. And so the really important thing that we wanna do is explain sexism to them help them understand it as much as we're helping our girls understand it because they don't understand the history. They don't understand the focus on girls' appearance. They don't understand. They really don't get how vigilant a girl has to be every moment of her life out in the world. And I think the more they come to understand that, the more empathy they'll have for her and for girls in general. And another thing I would say is For their whole growing up experience, don't separate boys and girls. As much as possible, keep these cross-gender friendships going.
Dr. Cam (39:49)
Yeah, you're right. There's so much separation. And then we don't understand one another and we don't learn from one another. And it does create this very just polarizing women, men. And I've been seeing this too, is that the container of what it is to be a man and a woman, I feel are so restraining that no one actually fits into that container. which then creates a whole nother level of insecurity because I don't fit that perfect container that is completely unrealistic, which means where do I fit?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (40:23)
Yes. And the container for women is their bodies, right? Like their bodies have to be shrunk and fit this certain standard. And for boys, it's really their masculinity, right? There's this constant nagging feeling that they're not boy enough. Even the most boy boys feel that way. And it's really sad. And with my son, in terms of like your question of what do you do, I've taken the long view. Like he might not be able now to stand up to his friends and be like, that's so sexist, right? But if I'm pointing it out, if I overhear things that they're saying, I'm, you know, there's a story in the book, right? About a friend of mine who called me and she had overheard her friend, she had overheard her son who was a new freshmen, just making friends, had them over to the house and they were saying words like ho and thought, right? That whatever, that ho over there and she didn't say anything because she didn't want to be the one who sort of single-handedly shamed them and got in the way of him making friends. And so she called me and she was like, my God, what am I going to do? Like, I feel like I missed the moment. And I was like, you did not miss the moment at all. This is just perfect food for fodder. And so she went and she talked to him about what she had overheard and he was like, mom, it's just a joke. And you know, even the girls laugh at it.
And she was like, yeah, I'm sure they do because they've been conditioned to, but there's no reason that we should laugh at girls' sexuality and elevate boys' sexuality. And I was like, boom, right? And so that was just a lesson in passing. She didn't harp on it. It was just something she could say. And over time, hopefully this message sinks into that boy and he starts to be able to think that way as well.
Dr. Cam (42:08)
I love that. the takeaway I'm getting is it's really in modeling how we are as mothers and just showing our power, talking to our girls and boys equally and focusing on both sides of who they are. And I want to ask you, what is your big takeaway that you want parents to walk away with?
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (42:52)
that's a great question. I want parents to know that sexism and gender bias affect girls much more than you think. But if you understand how to approach it, you can reduce the negative effects of it.
Dr. Cam (43:16)
Great. That is wonderful. So Dr. Jo, tell us more about your book and how people can find you.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (43:23)
Yes, so the book is called Sexism and Sensibility, Raising Empowered Resilient Girls in the Modern World. You can find it wherever books are sold. It's also an audiobook that I narrate and it is you can find me at JoanneFengelstein.com or I have a newsletter that's JoanneFengelstein.substack.com called The Feminist Parent and I'm on Instagram at joannfingelstein.phd and on TikTok at the same handle.
Dr. Cam (44:00)
All of them. That's great. And I love that you played off of a Jane Austen book because Jane Austen writes some really powerful women. So that's a great play. Love it. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you.
Jo-Ann Finkelstein, PhD (44:08)
She sure does.Thank you, Dr. Cam, it's been fun.
ABOUT THE SHOW
The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast delivers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help parents strengthen their relationship with their teens. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior, communication, or self-esteem issues, this podcast offers actionable solutions to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding.
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