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Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
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Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
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Brian and Alison Suter are dear friends of ours. I met both of them in junior high through our church connection. And when my husband and I moved back to Illinois, it was so fun to get to reconnect with them as adults in a similar stage of life. [00:01:21]
Brian is a licensed professional counselor at Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services and Alison is the founder and designer behind Fae & Monroe. They have three great kids, and they are often asked to speak about marriage and parenting at conferences around the Midwest. It's an honor to host them today. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, friends.
Brian Sutter: Hi, Laura. Great to be with you here.
Alison Sutter: We're so honored to be a part of this podcast.
Laura Dugger: Well, why don't you guys just first tell everybody a little bit about yourselves.
Brian Sutter: Well, Brian here. Father, husband, and a counselor. That's what I do most of my day. I met my lovely wife here, Alison, in college.
Alison Sutter: We've been married for 12 years now, and we have three kids. Kennedy is our daughter. She's six. Cash is our son, and he's five. And Ivy is our spunky little two-year-old.
Brian Sutter: Yep, she brings a lot of life to the home.
Laura Dugger: Well, Brian, you work with a lot of children in the private practice that you're a part of. What are some common themes that are coming up in your sessions? [00:02:28]
Brian Sutter: You know, just depending on what's going on. But I think one of the things that we see more and more of is just anxiety. With the pressures and things that come along with social media, it's so easy to compare, and for a lot of kids, it creates a lot of anxiety. I would say that's a big focus or a big thing that we're seeing more and more of today.
Laura Dugger: So if you could give all of your clients a voice, what do you think that they're desiring from their parents?
Brian Sutter: A lot of them long for just a place to feel heard and understood and supported, this safe place where they can just be. And I think with parents, I wouldn't say that doesn't mean you can't have any expectations. But in that, how to navigate that place that there's expectations, but love isn't conditional in the midst of those expectations.
Laura Dugger: And what does that look like, the difference between conditional or unconditional love from a parent?
Brian Sutter: Well, I think just that continual message that says, I'm here for you and I care about you, and that's not dependent on the grades that you bring home. It's not dependent on your behavior that maybe I like or don't like. [00:03:34] Accidentally, we can give a lot of messages that say, as long as you make me happy, then I'm okay with you, when you don't make me happy, then I'm not okay with you.
So that piece of just saying, I'm here, you have my love and support no matter what, and there are expectations I want to challenge you to move into.
Laura Dugger: And with that anxiety, is there a specific age that's really struggling with this?
Brian Sutter: I wouldn't say so. I think, in general, that's just more and more we see that across the age range. And depression, too. Those things are just seeing a lot of that. Now, whether that's because more people are aware of it and they're reporting it more, or there's actually more of it. There's a fair amount of, you know, arguing over those sorts of things. But there's a lot of it, and it's certainly on the rise.
Alison Sutter: But even us with a toddler, I find myself responding to her behavior. With, Ivy, you did a great job cleaning up your toys. I love you so much. And I tend to attach 'I love you' to the end of positive reinforcement. [00:04:35]
I think that is just a building block to teaching your kids that your love can be conditional. And I've really tried to make an effort to also attach that to the end of "Ivy, you shouldn't have treated your brother like that. I love you and I want you to learn a different way to treat your brother." So to just be conscious of how that can naturally become a part of our language, telling them, even though we don't mean to, that our love is attached to their behavior.
Laura Dugger: That helps even just to have an example of a script that we can use as parents. For all the parents that want to do their part to set their kids up well, what advice do you have for them? I
Brian Sutter: I think one of the things that can be very difficult for parents in our day and age is to let our kids fail. Right? One of the skills I really try to encourage parents to give their kids is the ability to fail well. Like, too often, I think our goal becomes, how do we keep them from hard things? But rather, I think we want to train them to work through hard things. That's going to give them the skills, whether we're talking about anxiety or depression or their friend's done something mean or whatever it would be, how do we help them learn how to walk through hard things rather than set them up for, how do I avoid hard things? [00:05:52]
Laura Dugger: Do you have any kind of stories or examples to illustrate what that might look like?
Brian Sutter: One thing that comes to mind, even just in my own experience growing up, that I look back on and I think, what in the world were my parents thinking, right? My brother and I, we were like 12 and 13 and we're walking through... there's like Bass Pro or something like that. And we just had to have this little boat, this two-seater boat. We had it.
We had a perfectly good John boat at home, but we thought we just had to have this. And it was like 400 bucks. So for a 12-year-old boy, that's a lot of money. And for some odd reason, Mom and Dad let us buy that. A few years later, it was just destroyed. We didn't take care of it. It actually ended up down the Mississippi.
But looking back on that, I think it taught me that through that failure, through that poor mistake that my dad let me make, it was really unwise. And I learned that through experiencing it rather than him protecting me from making that poor decision.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. Even financially, that was a $400 mistake instead of a $40,000 mistake. [00:06:56]
Brian Sutter: Exactly. And as we age and move forward through life, the stakes get higher and higher and higher. Like you're talking about, a $400 mistake at 12 turns into a $40,000 mistake when you're talking about college or a house and so on.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just get more specific and dive into a topic that makes most parents a little bit nervous, which is talking to your kids about sex. Are there any basic "shoulds" or "should nots" that we need to be aware of?
Brian Sutter: One of the things you might think about is just to visualize this table. There's different seats around this table, and those seats are ministering into your child's heart. You get to pick who is going to sit in some of those seats and some of those seats you don't get to pick.
So let's say there's 12 seats. You want to sit in the seat that's there for you. So that's the "should". Like if you're talking about ministering or speaking into this area of sexuality that's so important, take your seat at the table. Sit down and speak truth into their heart. [00:07:58] And make sure that this seat over here that you find a mentor for church that you respect that's going to be able to speak into their heart. And surround peers into their lives that you know are growing up with the same sort of values and expectations that you're trying to speak into their heart.
Don't try to take away the seats or control the seats that you can't fully control. Like there's going to be things in society that you can't control. You don't get to remove that seat, but you want to join that seat so you can speak into whether it's lies or truths that are coming from that.
So at a high level, just to keep that in mind, there's a seat for you at the table. Sit down and speak into their hearts, even on topics that are really scary like this one.
Alison Sutter: I think it's easy for us to say out loud... of course, it's important that we're speaking to our kids about this topic, of course, it's something that I want to have a role in. But when the time comes and you're kind of caught off guard by this question that your child has or you find them doing something and your first reaction tends to be really awkward, and you don't know what to say, and you get nervous, and you tend to avoid it. Or maybe that's just me. [00:09:08]
But it's really easy in the moment to say, Oh, it's too soon to talk about this. We'll talk about this when you're 13, or we're going to ask your dad when he gets home, or just to brush it off. What that is actually speaking to your child is there's a wall between you and me in this conversation.
Then if that child has a question for you they're going to see that wall. "The last time mom reacted really oddly and she actually didn't want to talk about it. So maybe I should ask my friend at school instead, who seems more than willing to talk about it."
So just to recognize that every time you engage your child, you're telling them that this conversation is open, that I'm willing to hear all of your questions. I'm not going to run away from your questions, even when I don't have good answers. So just be willing to sit in those awkward spots in conversations.
Laura Dugger: What I think I hear you saying is that even if you don't have the right answer, it's better as a parent to engage in that instead of avoiding it. [00:10:08]
Alison Sutter: Yes, just to let your child know that you're willing to discuss it. I think it's so healthy for your child to know that you don't have all the answers and that you're willing to walk through this together and that other people are at their table and we can talk to other people about this too, but that they know that they can come to you and that you will speak into their life. I think it's so important.
Brian Sutter: And in that, just to acknowledge there'll be times that you may not know the answer, and that's perfectly a fine answer. Like, "I'm not sure. Boy, let me think about that," or "can I get back to you?" rather than just totally running away from it and shutting the door.
Laura Dugger: Because that's reality is that we won't know.
Brian Sutter: Exactly, yeah. Some of it you won't know just because you're anxious yourself, right? When you get nervous yourself, you're just not going to think quite as clearly, and you may even need some time to process what's just been said, and then you may have an answer after you lay down and breathe in a bag for a while.
Laura Dugger: This conversation, we've talked about a few things that are reactive if we have our kids approach us with a question and we catch them doing something. What about being proactive? Do you recommend that moms speak to daughters and dads speak to sons or both to both? What are your tips? [00:11:22]
Brian Sutter: I think one of the things that we would say, our heart would be that it would be kind of an ongoing conversation in the home and it would be something that either one of us would be willing to speak into. Therefore, it's not her job for our daughters, it's not my job for our son.
There certainly will be times, no doubt, that I'll have that conversation with my son. But hopefully, we're in this together and we're both fielding those questions and bringing that dialogue up as it seems natural through conversation.
Alison Sutter: I think there's a shift right now since culture is shifting the conversation of sexuality so rapidly that in response to that, I see Christian parents changing from a talk they have with their kids to building a foundation from early on from just having conversations about the family unit to how they were made differently than their brother or their sister. And having those conversations really sets a foundation for biblical truths. Because it used to be that the culture lined up a little bit more closely with Christian truths about sexuality and the reality is it just doesn't anymore.
So those foundational truths about how God made them, that He made them sexual, that sexuality was a part of the world before the fall. I think sometimes we tend to just speak negatively about it to our children. [00:12:47]
And so I see this shift of speaking positively about their sexuality, which can be really scary as a parent with a six-year-old daughter. But of course, that's going to be an age-appropriate level. And just to teach them that God made their bodies good, that this was part of God's creation, and then if you have that as your foundation, then those biblical truths as they grow older about sexuality under the covenant of marriage is going to have a solid foundation instead of "this is bad until the day you get married." I think that really hurts the conversation if they're not allowed to view it as a positive thing until they're married.
Laura Dugger: I think that's really helpful, Alison. A lot of this, again, we're talking if we're reactive to our kids' questions, but if you're advising people to be proactive with their kids, what age do you think it's appropriate to talk about anything sexual?
Brian Sutter: Well, even if you're starting at the level, like Alison mentioned, just at gender, as soon as they're able to communicate that's an appropriate topic to talk about. What does that mean that you're a boy? And as you're reading through the scriptures, you're reading Genesis 1, and you're reading about Adam and Eve, Adam was a boy, and Eve was a girl. What does that mean? [00:14:05]
At a very basic level, what does it mean that daddy's a boy and mommy's a girl? Some of those just fundamental pieces that maybe aren't necessarily directly on the topic of sex, but you're starting those foundational pieces that maybe the overall culture is starting to erode away from.
Alison Sutter: And every age you're going to have proactive and reactive. And I think that's important to think about that being proactive doesn't mean you won't have any reactive situations and that those are still good in the moment. They'll probably catch you off guard. But if you also utilize those proactive moments when you're able to set the timeline of teaching, then it really helps with those reactive moments. I think it's only dangerous when you only have the reactive moments.
Brian Sutter: And for example, you know, it's very common for a really young child to masturbate. You know, that's a very common experience. So that might be reactive that, you know what, what are you doing and let's talk about that. These are the reasons why we wouldn't do that. [00:15:10]
Now again, they may not listen at that point, but you're opening up that conversation to talk about body parts. You're opening that conversation, that we can talk about the subject with them.
Laura Dugger: Can you paint a more clear picture of what is normal and something that a parent may walk into?
Brian Sutter: Sure. So, you know, as a young child, it's just very normal for them to be curious about their body and in that to be fondling themselves. I don't have the statistics on it exactly on how often that is, but even if you were to go to any pediatrician and say, "Hey, this is happening. They're masturbating in the bathtub" or something like that, they're going to tell you this is very typical behavior. When it happens, just let them know, Hey, let's not do that, and try to shift their focus into something else.
But in that, of course, you're going to maybe have a strong reaction like, Oh, no, what does this mean, or why are they doing that? Well, they're doing this because they're human and this feels good and therefore they engage the behavior. [00:16:12] And we want to try to just shift their attention into something else.
And for a lot of kids, that's going to help them. Others, it's just going to be kind of steadily, Oh, remember, we don't do that. And then you keep shifting them and eventually they kind of grow out of it. It's awkward maybe at some point, but also just normal and something that is helpful to kind of move them along.
Laura Dugger: That's really good. I've heard people say, moms of the sons especially, that these are private parts. So understand what private and public means and those two definitions. And those are private parts. We keep those private. We don't pull anything out when we're out in public.
Brian Sutter: That's right.
Laura Dugger: Maybe it's helpful to break it down by age so we know some age-appropriate conversations we can be having. So, what do you two think is the best way to start the conversation with our kids who are not even preschool age, basically birth to 3-year-olds?
Alison Sutter: I think that's when you're really just having basic conversations, like you said, Brian, earlier about boys and girls. [00:17:13] So much of it is studying your child and listening to their questions because some kids are going to be ready to have conversations at two and three and some are not. So maybe four or five or six. So to really study your child, listen to their questions, be willing to engage with any questions that come up.
But I think at that point often the difference between boys and girls, and like you said, these are your private areas, these are the areas that we don't let other people touch. You know, it's important to keep clean those kinds of conversations.
Laura Dugger: That brings up a great point. Another topic that isn't as fun to talk about, but giving them names for their private parts so that if anybody does ever inappropriately touch them, the children then know how to communicate to the adult what happened.
Brian Sutter: I think that would certainly, as you move into the next age group, that would really be the important goal there, that you're teaching body parts and you're helping them develop a language of, you know, what their different body parts are so then they know specifically what are private and what are public. [00:18:21]
Then, too, like you're saying, it's a protective thing for them. We can't always protect our children from abuse, but one of the things that we can be very helpful with, if we equip them with the right information, what's okay, what's not okay, and what to do if something happens that's outside of what we've defined as okay, this is what you do. When they know that, that can help prevent it being an ongoing abusive thing, hopefully.
God forbid it ever happens, but, you know, just that they would know this is wrong. Mom and Dad have told me what to do, and now I can act according to what Mom and Dad have said.
Alison Sutter: In those ages of kids, I mean, if you think about anything you're teaching a 3-year-old, you're never going to say it one time. and they get it. So I think it's really important to have these conversations often whether it's through reading books about it or just asking them questions to be saying it multiple times so that they know if something ever happens that they remember it. Because of course, a 3-year-old isn't going to remember one conversation you had. [00:19:24]
So hopefully that's something that you're pouring into them often so that when it happens they know that they can come to and talk about it. It's a regular conversation.
Laura Dugger: And then it feels safe for them. So that's maybe the protective conversations are about 3 to 5 years old, would you say?
Brian Sutter: Yeah, I think so. That they're at that point, you know, are probably going to be able to talk fairly well and be able to understand what you're saying and moving into that space at that point. I think for us, one of the things that was helpful at that point is using some outside resources like reading a book together that kind of is now introducing the different body parts and some of this material.
You don't have to come up with it on your own, but it's something you're sitting side by side and reading together that's introducing it. And you might only get through two of the 20 pages, but then you're stopping and what does that mean? And what is this? And then, inevitably, you go to church on Sunday and your sons tell them, you know, all his buddies about this new word that he's learned. And, you know, you're like, oh no, which parents are going to come after me today? But it's good. It's important. [00:20:29]
Laura Dugger: It is important. We can definitely link to this in the show notes, but what are some examples of books that you do recommend for starting this conversation?
Brian Sutter: One of the books we really like in our office is called God's Design for Sex by Stan and Brenna Jones. I believe right now they're actually in between editions. So they're actually a little bit harder to get a hold of. But they're hopefully coming out with some new additions here in the near future. Those will be excellent. The old additions have been really helpful for us, but I know they're doing some new additions and those are great.
Alison Sutter: And those are just available on Amazon.
Laura Dugger: We love those books as well because they're even broken down by age groups, kind of what we're talking about today.
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Laura Dugger: So what are some ongoing conversations parents can have with their grade school-aged children?
Brian Sutter: Well, I think at that point, again, just using day-to-day experiences, as you're reading through, you know, the story of David and Bathsheba, you can bring a whole different layer of teaching to that at that age where they're understanding different things, and now they've got this foundation of truth of males and females. They know what public and private body parts are. [00:22:43]
And now you're kind of moving into this space that you're teaching them what is sex, and God's design for that. A Bible story like that, that's a perfect example to just kind of use that as a teaching opportunity.
Alison Sutter: It reminds me of learning about counterfeit money when people are trained to spot counterfeit money. The way they do that is by studying the real thing instead of studying all the fakes. And I think it can be applied to this situation where if you have laid the foundation of what God's truth is, then their kids are more likely to spot something outside of those boundaries.
It's a really overwhelming conversation if you're expecting to teach your kids all the wrong things about sex. But if you're able to teach them God's truth and God's plan for it, and what those boundaries are, and that those boundaries are really good and really healthy for them, then they're able to spot when something lies outside of that. [00:23:41]
Brian Sutter: Sometimes as Christians, one of the things that we err on is that we are just kind of the no police. Here, don't do that, don't do that, don't do that. Whereas this is a perfect age group, you know, to be able to come alongside them and help them understand God's design. And even teaching.
In Genesis, it talks about that God's given us dominion over the world. I think one of Satan's desires is that the world would have dominion over us, whether that's through sex, whether that's through alcohol, so many different things. And that we get to teach them God's best and how that's good for them. It's not restrictive in a way that says you can't do anything. It's restrictive in a way that says, no, this is what's best, and this is what you're designed for. And that's an exciting way to teach it rather than just no, no, no, which we tend to do.
Laura Dugger: Yes, and that's a great challenge for all of us even just to develop our own theology of biblical sex and that there is so much freedom and excitement in that for what God has to say. [00:24:43]
Alison Sutter: That's a really good point that if you don't know what the Bible says about sex yourself, it's going to be impossible for you to teach others. I mean, depending on how your parents taught you, if it was the typical one conversation, here's 30 minutes, I'm going to tell you all you need to know, and that's all you have, there's a good chance you don't know what the Bible says about sex. And so it would be crucial for you to really understand what your theology is before you're jumping into that with your kids.
Laura Dugger: Before we go on to the next age group, these younger kids, I've heard a lot of people say, well, I just don't want to take away their innocence. What are your thoughts on that?
Alison Sutter: Well, those younger kids, you're really teaching a positive message. I think you can keep it positive until they ask... You can see when their mind starts working and asking those questions. Well, when our son was 4 years old, I remember him asking me, "Can two girls get married?" And it used to be that you could say no. [00:25:41]
Now the answer is a little more muddy because technically our culture says that you can. So you can tell when your kids are starting to connect the dots and bringing up things that are going to be more awkward and going to maybe be more negative about what the culture is telling them.
But when they're young and they're not asking those questions, it can be an all-positive conversation that God made them... He made them perfectly, that your bodies are beautiful and wonderfully made, and you can keep it positive until those questions start coming.
Brian Sutter: I think the other thing that I would just mention with that is that there's risk with everything that we might do, right? There's risk with every decision that we step into. And is there risk in being open with your five-year-old on this topic? Yes, there is risk.
But in my opinion, and from my experience even clinically, the risk of not stepping into this space, the risk of not sitting down at the table and teaching them far outweighs the risk of me having an uncomfortable conversation with another dad at church of why his son now knows the word penis. [00:26:48] Like, that's uncomfortable, but that's a fairly small risk versus not sitting down and what could happen without me teaching what I want my child to know about sex.
Laura Dugger: So that addresses one of the fears of parents. And one other is just "it's awkward, it's funny, we laughed, it went terrible." What encouragement do you have for them?
Alison Sutter: Your kids tend to ask at the worst time when you are not expecting it, you don't have any planned answer and it is, it's so awkward. My first practical tip is to read the books before you read them to your kids because they-
Brian Sutter: Do you remember the first time we sat down... like she's over in the corner just like dying and then eventually she says, Is this the way you thought this was gonna go? I mean, it was just a complete disaster. But they don't they don't remember it at all because we started young enough. [00:27:47] It's actually a fun memory.
So it's gonna be awkward. And that's where the advantage of starting when they're young enough that they don't remember it. I think that's one of the sayings to think about it. If you start when they're old enough to remember that conversation, you've started too late. Start when you can do the awkwardness and they're not going to remember it. You will, but it'll be fun. Then by the time they're, you know, will remember it, you'll have, you'll be sharp as a tack.
Alison Sutter: And we've read these books many... I mean, we're still on the 3 to 5 age range with our kids and that book in that series. And we've read it several times. So after you've read this book four or five times with your kids, it's so much less awkward. I mean, it just becomes a very natural conversation and you can just see that this is going to be much easier to have a conversation when you have questions, because we've talked about this many times. [00:28:41] If we had just done it after that first reading, it would have been not as comfortable.
Laura Dugger: Okay, so that was helpful. I derailed us a little bit. So let's get back to some of those ages, because the next few seasons can be kind of tricky. How do you think that parents should address this topic with their children who are junior high age?
Brian Sutter: Again, it's one of those places now, you know, you're moving into that space where there are girlfriends, boyfriends, there's a lot more of that going on. Again, just stepping into that space, having that conversation. What does that mean? What do boys and girlfriends… what do they do with each other? And getting a feel, one, for where they're at and what they're aware of, and then either bringing knowledge into that that's correct or kind of helping them understand what's not okay about that. But just stepping into that space, I think, really is the main thing.
Laura Dugger: And by stepping in, do you also mean even asking them direct questions?
Brian Sutter: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's being talked about? What are the things that happened today that you think maybe mom or dad wouldn't agree with? [00:29:51] All of those things happen through their day, and us being aware of what's going on is going to give us the opportunity to speak into that.
Now with technology, it just creates a whole new space. So, okay, they're going to be starting to want to get into maybe social media things. Okay, well, tell me. Help me understand what's going on there. Teach me how to use this. How are your friends using it? What are the positives? What are the negatives?
And if you can do that on the front end before they get into that, then you have some more control. Again, you're providing teaching before they're even into that space and figuring out if that's wise or not based on where they're at maturity-wise.
Laura Dugger: You're making all this feel doable because it sounds a lot like relationship building. And that's not as intimidating.
Brian Sutter: Exactly. I think if you can look at it through that lens that this is just about me building and maintaining a relationship with my kid rather than "how do we teach them about sex?" Well, this is just part of what you do, part of relationship. It's not like this separate piece that we just kind of put in the back closet and just bring out, you know, once a year when somebody's made a mistake or my wife is telling me, "It's time, have the conversation" or whatever. [00:31:01]
Alison Sutter: I think Satan would love for that to be the case and he would love for us to be so afraid of this topic that we never approach it or that it feels too big to even talk about with our kids. Going back to what you said about having those conversations with your junior high kids, you're really good... Of course, our oldest is six. You're really good at asking our kids about their day at school, and I would have never thought about this.
But just that ability for kids to think back and relay what was good about their day and what was bad about their day, it's not just so that you have something to talk about at dinner, but for them to look back and think about choices that they made, situations with their friends at school, what they liked about the day, what they didn't like about their day. You're teaching them to communicate with their parents.
And if you've done that since they've been little, it's going to be a lot easier in junior high if you're asking them about their friends at school or social media. If you've never asked your kids about their friends at school, that conversation is going to probably bring up a defensiveness from your junior high kid. [00:32:07] But if that's just your normal conversation at dinner, it's going to feel really natural.
Laura Dugger: So it's a great natural rhythm to get into as early as possible. And yet never too late. Somebody could still start this today regardless of their children's ages.
Brian Sutter: No question. And then the reality is, too, there's some kids that just are going to be much more hesitant to talk and tell you about their day. And that's just a real part of this, that it doesn't necessarily mean you didn't start the conversation early enough. It doesn't necessarily mean that you've got to keep digging. It's just being patient and coming alongside. Let them know that that door is open from your end. And hopefully, when those challenges or difficulties come up or questions arise, they can look to you as a resource, not necessarily somebody they have to hide this from. [00:32:56]
Laura Dugger: You both have mentioned around the tables, maybe the dinner table. And if they're not opening up, maybe it's throwing a football in the backyard or going for a walk or driving together. But we can be creative in how we're approaching these conversations.
Alison Sutter: Absolutely. I think kids that have a harder time with face-to-face conversations. If your child tends to clam up and not want to speak when you're face-to-face, I think driving in a car is a really helpful way for them to engage. They can look out the window and you can chat without that intense eye contact. Sometimes that's hard for kids at this age range.
Laura Dugger: What advice do you have for parents of high schoolers?
Brian Sutter: One of the questions I would ask parents at that stage is just what is your goal? What are you hoping for, for your young son or daughter? Our goal is again to disciple them towards Jesus. That we want to teach them what it looks like to love and follow Jesus. [00:33:51]
Now some of them are going to be more open to that than others, but that's really our goal. And part of that means is helping them to navigate relationships and talk about relationships. At that point, you know, certainly girlfriends and boyfriends are really a reality, but how do you walk through that in a way that honors Christ? And if they're not, how do you talk to them about that?
Again, keep that door open and not turn it into, look at all the things that you're doing wrong every time, but you're keeping relationship intact while you're trying to continue to pour truth into their hearts.
Alison Sutter: Something you talked about recently that seems really scary to me is that we tend to teach our kids to be virgins, that that is the end goal, when we should be teaching our kids to be disciples. So if we have reached the 18 where we're letting them off into the world and they are virgins and we give ourselves a big gold star, I think that's really dangerous because we could have lost so much in that conversation. [00:34:54]
So, you know, if your child is not a virgin at that point, you've not failed. And I think that can be really helpful in this stage because you feel like this is the big test, whether our kids are going to make right choices. And to just remember that at the end of the day, we want them to be disciples. I think we can get lost in this purity battle. We just want to keep our kids safe, right? And it's such a good goal to have. But that you have that big picture of being a disciple of Jesus.
Laura Dugger: I love that because then if a child has failed in this area, then the parents, you're saying, bring everything back to the Bible. And the Bible is full of redemption and grace. So we can use that to inform our conversations as well as part of that bigger goal of making disciples.
Alison Sutter: Absolutely. Amen.
Brian Sutter: And I think, you know, sexuality is a great place to practice that. That we should assume that this is going to be an area that is going to be hard for our kids. You know, pursuing purity, this is going to be hard, but that's not something that we should run from. It's a place where their hearts can get exposed and that we want to jump into that with them. [00:36:06] So therefore, dads and moms, we ought to be interacting with our kids and asking them, how are you doing? What's hard about staying pure? Where are things not going well?
Again, some kids are going to be more open to that conversation than others. But again, trying from our end as much as we can, letting them know we're interested, we're curious, and we're here for them in that.
Alison Sutter: This is also an age when kids are going to set the time frame of your conversations more. You don't have too many midnight conversations with your 4-year-old, but you're probably going to have more of those as your kids age. And to just be willing to be really tired the next day, to be willing to have those conversations because a lot of times...
Obviously, we don't have experience with this yet. But even in our own childhoods, those late-night talks are so valuable. And if our parents wouldn't have been willing to do that, it would have been really sad.
Laura Dugger: So what is considered healthy once kids are out of their parents' home as far as continuing discussions related to sex? [00:37:13]
Brian Sutter: One of the things to think about there would be just if they're in a serious dating relationship or if they're married and kind of where they're at on that continuum. So if they're in that space where they're out of the home and they're in a serious dating relationship, for somebody to be speaking into this area of their life, and at least, if nothing else, to have that conversation with them. Am I that person as a parent? Or do you have a youth pastor? Or maybe they're at college at this point, and there's a pastor or somebody there at college who can do that.
And then two, for the parent to close that loop, like, okay, would you mind if I call them and just say, Hey, this is an area they're going to be talking with you about. I'm fully supportive. Let me know if I can be helpful. That sort of thing. Or if they're married and they have questions about that. Again, asking that question: is this something you'd like me to speak into, or if not, who could? At a minimum to have that kind of a discussion and they get to be more the driver at that point.
Alison Sutter: Because your authority certainly changes once your child is married. [00:38:16] So, you know, if they're willing and open, both of them are willing and open to have you as a mentor in that area, that's awesome. But they might not be. And that's okay, too, because then you know you are no longer their authority in that area at that point.
Laura Dugger: And it kind of goes back to all of those seats at the table for each child. That maybe this isn't your area to speak into, but somebody else in a different seat.
Brian Sutter: You're assuming this is going to transition from you to somebody else at some point in this age group. Whether it's late into high school, early college, or marriage, you're assuming there's a transition. So you're exactly right. You want to have people in that seat that you think would be helpful, and maybe they'll pick them or maybe they won't. But that job won't always be yours and having good people that are available to step into that more.
Laura Dugger: And that you may just be playing more of a supportive role.
Brian Sutter: Yeah, right.
Laura Dugger: So where can a parent start today when they hear all of this?
Brian Sutter: I think my biggest encouragement would just start with the goal of I'm going to step into this. I'm going to step into wherever they're at, whether your child is 3 or 13 or 23, you're going to ask them or talk to them about the topic of sexuality, whether that's in the context of sexual purity or in the context of body parts if they're at the younger end. Whatever that would look like, just to say, what's one small question or statement that I can share with them over the next few days? [00:39:46]
Alison Sutter: And I think if you have younger kids, of course, you can, you know, start right now and they'll never know that you weren't starting earlier. But if you do have older kids to just be honest with them to say, you know, this is an area I haven't done well, and I'd like to do better at. And to just have that very first conversation with them about what this could look like, that you want to be open and honest, and you want to be a place that they can ask the hard questions.
Laura Dugger: I think that's so admirable because that is leading with humility, maybe even apologizing. "I'm so sorry that we haven't had more of these conversations, but I would like to open that door if you will."
Alison Sutter: It can be so powerful.
Laura Dugger: Our listeners are some of the kindest people we've met. Your gracious comments through social media, email, and our website fuel us to continue producing more content. Some of you have asked what you can do to support The Savvy Sauce. As you know, we greatly appreciate it when you share episodes with friends.
And now, for as little as $2 a month, there is a new way to financially show your support. These contributions, ranging from $2 to $20 per month, will be rewarded with extra podcasts, free downloadable scripture cards, and more. Check out all the details at thesavvysauce.com and click on our "Patreon" tab to find out how you can be a supporter of the arts. Thanks for participating. [00:41:12]
Are there any other recommended resources that you want to suggest to listeners if they want to educate themselves further on any of these topics?
Brian Sutter: I think one that comes to mind from Focus on the Family that I really appreciate and recommend a fair amount is called Teaching Your Child About Homosexuality. So it's not actually a book, it's more of a pamphlet. And it does kind of breaks it down into age groups. Here's where you start when they're really young and kind of the next thing and the next thing.
It does a really good job of practically giving you teaching points at different ages, kind of like we're talking about today, but more directly on the topic of homosexuality. I think that's a great resource.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful, Brian. Alison, do you have any other ones to recommend?
Alison Sutter: Obviously, we haven't gone through any of these older resources with our kids, but I know people who have used Dannah Gresh and her Secret Keeper Girls. There's weekends, there's different seminars you can take your girls with you to. It's really entertaining. The girls love it. And then they give you some resources that you can have those conversations one-on-one with your child as well. [00:42:17]
I've heard really good things about that and I've heard really good things about Passport 2 Purity as well by Family Life.
Laura Dugger: Great. Again, we'll link to all of those in the show notes. Well, you two know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with insight or practical knowledge. And as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Brian Sutter: I think mine would be: dads date your daughters. If we can give them an example of what it looks like to be loved and cared for just because you love and care for them, what a great privilege. And it's so much fun, too. Like, going to the coffee shop and having a hot chocolate with your little girl. Or, you know, I can't wait till when she gets a little bit older and we get to go out to dinner together. You know, we've gone to the park together. It's such a fun thing.
And hopefully, it's laying some of those foundations of what it looks like for her to be treated as a beloved daughter created in the image of God, and that that will help her recognize the difference between men who are worth pursuing and men who are not. [00:43:23]
Alison Sutter: I think mine would be to find your tribe. It's a little bit of a buzzword going around, I think. But to find people that are going to cheer you on. I've been so blessed with a circle of friends that I would be so confident in if my kids went and asked them any questions about things that we've talked about today or just any life questions. I'd be so confident in their answers to them.
I think it can be really difficult, especially if you're a stay-at-home mom, to reach out, to get out and make relationships can be really intimidating and it can be really hard, especially when you do life differently or you do parenting differently. You know, you tend to run into different styles and it can kind of push you back into your hole and you just want to stay home. But to really reach out, make some connections, have solid girlfriends that are going to come along with you and cheer you on in the hard days, and also possibly be a seat at that table for your child. [00:44:23]
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love both of those. You two are just so fun to be around and so full of really helpful, practical tips. So I just want to say thank you for giving us your time today.
Alison Sutter: It was so fun to be here.
Brian Sutter: It was. [inaudible 00:44:36]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:45:22]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:46:27]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:47:27]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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