Podcast - SURF MASTERY

124 Surfing: Art or Sport? with Devon Howard

Is surfing a sport, an art, or something in between - and does it really matter?If you've ever felt pressure to "perform" in the water or questioned your progress as a surfer, this episode will shift your mindset. Michael Frampton and Devon Howard unpack how redefining surfing as an art form - not just a competitive sport, it can transform both your approach and enjoyment, whether you're a beginner or a seasoned longboarder.Discover why kids often learn to surf faster and more fearlessly than adults - and what that means for your own surfing journey.Learn how to embrace surfing as a personal expression, tapping into flow states and style without the stress of performance.Get practical tips on wave selection, lineup strategy, and choosing the right longboard or mid-length for your body and goals.Tap into the deeper meaning of surfing and learn how shifting your mindset from sport to art can unlock more joy and progress - listen now.Key Points:Reading Waves & Lineup Tactics: Devon shares his triangulation method for better positioning and wave-catching efficiency - plus tips for navigating crowded breaks.Nose Riding Fundamentals: Understand why board length and positioning are crucial, and get clear size guidelines based on your height and weight.Board Selection Wisdom: From longboards to mid-lengths, discover how design choices impact both performance and style - and why collaboration with shapers like Wayne Rich matters.Surf Philosophy: Explore the tension between competition and creativity, and how thinking of surfing as dance, art, or even martial art can transform your surfing mindset.Check out this article: https://www.theinertia.com/surf/surfing-art-sport-debate/ p.s. DM Devon on Instagram about a discount code for Channel Island’s accessories; leg ropes, tail pads and board bags. Transcript:124 Devon HowardMichael Frampton: …they're mad on football. So it's winter here in New Zealand, so it's just football, football, football.Once the football season finishes and the, and the water gets warmer, we'll get back into surfing. I got the kids in swimming lessons every week, so just building their swimming fitness up. Devon Howard: Yeah, our kids are swimming now. They're pretty young, but we have a pool nearby and to get 'em acquainted with the ocean, we've been getting 'em in swimming lessons just 'cause it's, the water's a little chilly here as you, as you know.So getting really young kids psyched on low 60 Fahrenheit water is rough. Oh yeah. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Swimming's important.Swimming's you, you, I mean, the confidence in the water, right? Is, yeah. Michael Frampton: The biggest thing. And, and one thing that surprised me, like my kids, we spend a lot of time at the beach, , in the summertime and just their level of play, they don't care. , They started off just messing around in the shore break and then with a bodyboard, and then they jump on the front of my board and there was no pressure from me.It was just like, we're at the beach, you guys do what you want. And then naturally they're like, oh, I wanna try your board dad. And now they're all surfing. That's great. And, and they naturally, one of them in particular is like obsessed with it and. But they don't care. It's like for, for them, surfing is not a sport at all.There's no, there's no pressure on performance, anything like that. Right. And I think that's why they, they learn so well and why they sort of have no, there's no fear or shame or anxiety based around how they look in the water or anything. It's just pure fun. And two things surprised me on that is like a, is how long it takes to learn., I've been doing this with them, like my 13-year-old, he's only really just starting to sort of get surfing, like starting to sort of turn up and down on the wave face. And we've been doing that since he was four. You know, obviously there's far more gifted kids that pick it up really quick and, you know, the natural athletes and their obsessed parents and you know, some kids are competing once they're 11.But I think for most kids it's, it's takes so long to learn surfing. And I think just knowing that. Takes a lot of, should take a lot of pressure off the adult learner who's listening to this. Right? Michael Frampton: It's like, give yourself a break, man. It takes a long time to learn surfing. And second of all, the fastest and best way to learn surfing is to kind of approach it like a kid in a way.And Sure, my theory is that part of that is, don't think of it as a sport per se. Think of it as more of like an art or a lifestyle . Right. What are your thoughts on, on surfing in that regards? Is it a sport, is it an art? Does it matter? Devon Howard: I don't, I've never thought of it as a sport, even though I, ironically, I worked for a sports league for a while at the World Surf League.You can't give a simple answer to that because I think some aspects of surfing has become sport. , If you go, if we tune into the World Surf League later this week, they'll be at Jefferies Bay. The things that those surfers are doing, I think that's sport. I mean, it's, it's high level athleticism, , but it's mixed with art., In dance, which is an interesting thing. I suppose in some ways skateboarding is, you know, skateboarders have they really value style in their sport? I think that, I think skateboarders do call it a sport. But these conversations always are fraught with pitfalls because I'm, I'm not a, you know, my expertise isn't philosophy.I'm, I'm sure a really great thinker could pick this thing apart, but from my simple look at it, I always have felt surfing is a, it's just a personal expression and it, it leans more toward art. It leans more toward dance. I know that sounds cheesy for some folks, but, , the type of surfing that interests me and I pursuing a lot of my friends do, I, I think it is not really sport.Michael Frampton: , I, I agree with that a hundred percent. I would go further and argue that even in the WSL competition, I think most of the, the sport and air quotes is around the tactics and getting the waves. But once the surfers on the wave, the ones who get scored the most, are the most artistic. Mm-hmm. You know, like whether you watch John John with or without a jersey, he's, it's still very great.He's still dancing with the ocean. Yeah. Devon Howard: Yeah. And, and it is creative and I think because it's spontaneous, I guess other sports are spontaneous, you know, like a baseball game, any kind of balls comes flying at you, you have to react to it. There's not an exact plan, but you have practiced, um, a lot to react to that and to physically grab something where a surfboard, you have this other, you are catching something, you're catching the, the wave that's like catching a bulb.But then you've got this other dimension where now you have the, it's a cliche, but the paintbrush. Um, and I, a lot of these surfers don't know what they're gonna do when they get to their feet. I don't, I don't know if you do, I mean, you kind of have things that you are in your bag of tricks or your repertoire that you lean on, but you don't always know you.There's a lot of. Spontaneous react reaction to what's happening. So I think that's what art is. You know, if you sit, I used to draw a lot when I was younger, you know, you sit down and yeah, maybe you kind of have a game plan, but if, unless you're copying something, like you're looking at a still like a, you know, model or a landscape, I suppose you're, you know, you're copying that.But if you are sitting down and not looking at anything and just going off peer feeling with no plan, um, that's artistry. And I, I, I think surfing's that way for a lot of people. For some people it's just survival. They're not, they're not really planning anything out. If you're newer to surfing, you're just like, get to your feet, make the drop, get to the channel, do it over again.Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think a lot of. Things are like that, like surfing. Definitely one that sort of crosses the border between sport and art. I mean, you think of a a, an Olympic competition, gymnastics, right? It's gymnastics is essentially an art, unless even the judging itself is quite subjective.No. Mm-hmm. A running race who finishes first? I mean, that's very objective. It's there's, you know, right. That's definitely a sport. And then even like a, a football game, who scores, who wins at the end? It's the black, it's pretty black and white. However, you might argue that Messi or Ronaldo, the way that they play with the ball is an art form.The way that they probably draw energy from the audience and they like their, show me that it's a performance art for them. And anyone who's, you know, followed those great athletes would certainly describe the way they move is, is very artistic and the way they play the game. Um, right. I actually quite like to ask whether their perception of the game is more artistic as well.'cause I, 'cause that's where I'm sort of coming from here is like the, the overarching question is why does it matter if it's a sporter or not? Like who cares? Let's just go surfing. Well, I think for, for a lot of people, especially me, sport is often defined and I grew up playing sport, but it was always competitive sport.So the definition of sport for me has an element of competitiveness. Even though the Oxford dictionary definition of it doesn't include that, for me it's sort of always think of sport as something that's competitive. Whether that's an individualistic sport where you might be just competing against yourself when you're practicing or whatever.But when, when you approach surfing or anything with an artistic perspective, then it becomes, no, this is creative. And you know, instead of three, instead of three to the beach. Because I used to think of surfing, like even though I wasn't in a competition, I used to think of surfing as I wanna rip the wave and three to the beach and sort of had these WSL speed power flow sort of outside influences on the way I should surf.And you're watching surfing videos and you're surfing the latest shortboard and it was very much a sporting activity. And then when I sort of changed my perspective and thought of it, no, it's an art, it's for me, it's just becoming one with the wave and approached it. Yeah. From a more artistic perspective, I think a couple of things happened.I, I just enjoyed it more. There was less pressure. Yeah. Actually started becoming more inflow and actually surfing with the wave better. Devon Howard: Yeah. And it's funny, if you were to open up Surf magazine from, I don't know, 1966 or seven, the same exact conversations were happening because I might be misquoting 'em, but I believe it was Nat Young.At some point, you know, he and the crew, a lot of crew were pulling back from competition and, , they were like, you look at the film evolution and, and that sort of late sixties period they were going to the farm and they were pulling back from putting the jersey on and having these discussions, you know, is pursuing and pushing, surfing in as a competitive sport, a mistake.Are we forcing something upon, uh, a pursuit that's more akin to a performance art? I believe, I believe that's what he called it, was performance art, which would be closer to traditional dance. , You know, because at that time, let's just say late sixties, early seventies, the, the equipment. Hadn't gone anywhere near what it is now.I mean, sure. In cartoons and dreams, they were imagining, um, flying through the air. I'm sure people were, but it was, it wouldn't, that wasn't happening until, uh, late seventies, early eighties where people started like getting really above the lip and then leaving, uh, and taking orbit. Uh, so you can really just think about it as, um, yeah, performance art and um, and then competitive surfing.Uh, and, and the sport of surfing really, um, disappeared for a number of years. Through the early seventies into the mid seventies. By and large, the majority of surfing world wasn't participating in it. You look at surf magazines, they weren't pushing it super hard, but in the mid seventies, the board started getting.More, um, performance focused. And you could argue what came first, you know, was it the competition that drew drove design, which, um, you know, increased the performance of the boards. 'cause in the mid seventies, there's shrinking the boards from those brewer single fin shapes, which were pretty limiting. Um, people were riding eggs in the early seventies.Those were actually a lot more maneuverable than the Dick Brewer style boards that were popular because of Jerry Lopez. Jerry Lopez was God. And everyone wanted to surf like Jerry, even if it was waist high, wherever you were, it could be waist high Malibu. And people were riding seven foot Lopez guns, which was absurd.Hmm. And so everything was style focused. It was still for sure art., But I think there was a fork in the road, so to speak, um, by mid to late seventies. Professional, you know, professional surfing was becoming a thing. The bronzed, Aussies, Sean Thompson, every, you know, we don't have to give a history lesson here, but astute listeners know that story.And so surf brands are emerging and they're trying to sell product. And they sort of aligned themselves behind these elite quote, you know, surfer athletes and the type of surfing they were doing. You know, Shane Haran, you can go down the list of people. And then eventually Tom Kern, Martin Potter, Barton Lynch, they were getting in as many maneuvers as they could because they were being judged in a competition.They were trying to win something. It was a subjectified sport, but it was still subjective. So it was always, no one was ever totally happy, but it was still being pushed toward a sport. And to get better, to win, to be a champion, you had to keep pushing performance more maneuvers, more radical. Then you had the other people who said the hell with that, that that is counter to what they believed in surfing.And that would be your, um, Jim Banks. It would be the Wayne Lynch. It would be these sort of people that really stayed far from competition, pursued surf travel, and they kept that idea of it being an art alive. And like we're still having those discussions. We still, you know, on one side of things, now we have Michael February for example, and there's a whole list of people.Um, although even to like, , Brendan Marson, Margo who's like my age in his early fifties, credible surfer. There's nothing on that side of things that are. Remotely related to competition. And I think everybody associates what they are doing at purely as art. I don't think anyone I, I'd be happy to hear who thinks that is sport.And then we go back to our WSL example, you've got the jersey, you've got Jack Robinson, Alianca, you, you know, go down the whole list of people and that's what feels like sport to me. So it's interesting that we have two sides of it. And then ultimately whoever's listening or whoever's surfing and they, they sort of make a choice.And I don't know, maybe the, is there a hybrid version of that? What, what would the hybrid be? I, I don't even know what you would call that, but, Michael Frampton: I guess it depends on, I, I just think surfing is a sport for a very small percentage of surfers. It's the competitive ones. And then ironically, when they're surfing outside of competition and even when they're on a wave in their competition, it's still very much artistic.And like you said, I think a performance art is a great definition. And Kelly Slater defined, I've heard him define surfing as a martial art, is simply because in martial arts you are playing with an outside force, , and in surfing as a performance art, but at the same time, you're also, you, you want to get as close to the most powerful part of the wave as well, so, right.And in waves of consequence, at least you are, you're messing with danger, you know? Devon Howard: Well, yeah. And I, I don't know, I don't have the definition of martial arts in front of me, but did it, does it go on, is there any other part of that where it involves like inflicting pain or damage because, uh, one side of surfing.In the eighties when I was growing up, you wanted to rip and lacerate and destroy the wave, which is really funny. Yeah. I think Devon Howard: Brad Gerlach's talked about this before. I feel like I've heard him mention this and how the, that's one way to look at it. And the other is to have the surfing complement the, the wave.It's not to, to take away from it or to destroy it, like going off the bottom and then r you know, Hmm. Taking the board so that you're throwing as much spray in the air. It could be like a I'm smashing that wave. I'm ripping, I'm tearing, I'm shrouding las. Yeah. Lacerating And where, go back to Michael February or Margot or any of those sorts of, , rastovich.They are, there's a complimentary nature of the lines they choose and you never feel like they're destroying something or ripping it. I'm not, I'm not here to say what's right or wrong. It's just interesting. Hmm. Devon Howard: Uh, 'cause you, I never thought about martial arts, so I'm just kind of thinking that through out.Um, 'cause there are types of martial arts that are more in, like, I assume Tai Chi is a type of martial arts. I, I think pretty sure it is. But that's just like this beautiful movement. Kung fu has beautiful movement. Um, but you use that outsource outside force of nature to technically to defend yourself.Um, I guess if you're at, uh, ch pu, I don't know how to pronounce that. Everyone pronounces a different pu, um, that could kill you. Oh yeah. Pipeline. Michael Frampton: Oof. Devon Howard: Scary stuff. Michael Frampton: Yeah. But its intention is not to, whereas in martial arts, if you're in a fight, someone's intention is to hurt you. Although, you know, in martial arts, when you, when you are practicing martial arts in a dojo with, with friends, the intention isn't to hurt at all.It's to practice the art and to learn to flow with, you know, but then you, when you turn martial arts into a competition, say judo in the Olympic judo, yeah. Other guys maybe not trying to literally break your arm, but he wants to win. He wants to, you know, hurting you kind of part of that. So I think there's a sort of a subtle difference there between you sparring, sparring with a friend in order to become better so that you can defend yourself in a bad situation or you're in a judo competition, you wanna air quotes, kill the other person, Devon Howard: right?Michael Frampton: Yeah. But I get, and I guess you've got different approaches. I mean, you think of Pancho Sullivan's very much ripping and shredding the wave and you know, fast changes of direction and at the apex of the curve, which throws a lot of spray. But then you also look at Rob Machado and Smooth as you, like fast.Yeah. But he also throws a hell of a lot of spray and you could argue that he's ripping the wave. Yeah. But he's doing it in a graceful way maybe. Devon Howard: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, I, I agree. And a lot of, um, I dunno Devon Howard: if a lot of times, but I'll, I'll often hear people describe, , maybe we talked about this before, but that, that idea of that surfer stylish, did we talk about that before?Yes. Yeah, yeah. Stylish style. Yep. It, it belies the, the rip actual ripping going on, you know, because sometimes that. Low bottom turn or that really coiled up cutback that's really smooth and flowing. Yeah. It is a type of ripping and it is pretty difficult to do. Um, but there's, you're still leaning toward artistry over sport of, i know when I was at the World Surf League, especially with long 'cause I was there to work on longboard surfing, but I feel like longboard surfing can sometimes be more challenging to, to be a sport because it's a lot of this movement up and down the board. And since it, you know, through like the Joel tutoring influence and, and cultural influences, it started leaning more toward a traditional long board judging criteria.It. I, I would, I would have this conversation in my head like, are we at odds with ourself? Like we're trying to judge this thing. Um, we're trying to make as objective as possible, but it's, it's impossible because you, one judge can view somebody 'cause styles in the criteria where in short performance shortboarding, it's not in the criteria.Hmm. Devon Howard: It, it can create some interesting challenges. Like it's not easily identified as a sport. So I, I tried to explain to the judges, um, I wasn't a judge, but I was just sort of leading the whole crew and giving guidance on how are we gonna make this interesting? How are we gonna judge it as fair as possible?And I would use, , dance competitions as, um, as sort of a guideline. And I think everyone agrees that like those beautiful dancers doing tango. Salsa you named the dance like that is, that is for sure art. I mean, it's just incredible form and beauty and you know, they're throwing numbers out on that and it's, it's all subjective.So there it was, it was always this kind of, uh, it was this difficult thing of, , are we judging a sport? Are we judging performance art? And it was helpful for judges that were shortboard judges that didn't have a lot of experience with longboard surfing to step back and see it less as a competitive sport because it's pretty straight, it's a bit more straightforward with shortboarding, there still is a subjective nature to it, but when you don't have to lean on style, it's not written in the book.It, I'm sure some judges, um, factor style in, but they're, they're going above and beyond what's in the parameters of the rule book. So it was just an interesting, , observation and, and in the end I think we got there by having those conversations about being open to this being leaning more toward art, which in, in, in we're a sports league.We were at a sports league. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's a good conversation to have. 'cause it's important. Is it, there are a lot of similarities with dance. You know, like if you're judging a tango competition while the music they're playing is apt, first of all, it would, it would look strange if they were dancing to heavy metal.It wouldn't be appropriate the, the what they're wearing. Right? And then that in terms of them being stylish, their movements are smooth, controlled, and in time with the other person and the music. Yeah, the, the, Devon Howard: it's the, the style a lot of times is the balance of form with the movement so that the form is never lack of martial art.It's never working against the movement. You know, you can, you, you can't imagine a, a black belt in any martial art where their arms are like going the wrong way. It's just not, it would be really awkward looking. And it's, it's the same with surfing, you know. And so the, the form, the function will follow the form and if they have a really good form, um, the surfing will will a lot of times be beautiful, where a lot, I, I feel like two brides, two rides are a good way to sort of like.Forced pretty decent style. Like it's pretty apparent if you have awful style, if you're in a barrel. Mm. Devon Howard: But you know, a good amount of surfers can kind of pull it together and get that crouch down and sort of get the hands just right inside the barrel. But if they're like bent over it, legs are sort of straightish and they're bent over at the waist and sort of looking down at the board.Oof. Ow It's really obvious that, um, style's way off. Form's way off. Definitely not artistic. Michael Frampton: Yeah. And the wave's gonna hit you in the butt anyway. Devon Howard: Yeah. Because you're gonna be in bit trouble. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, it's, it's, so, I guess it's also, you've gotta surf back to surfing. You've gotta surf appropriately to the waves that you're surfing.So essentially you are in rhythm with the ocean and also. The, the surfboard that you choose to ride as well, which is like someone actually meant, because our last conversation was about style, which kind of weaves ni nicely into this conversation. And there was a comment on, on YouTube, someone said, oh, someone said you didn't infl, you didn't enforce or, put enough weight to the origin of the word style, which comes, comes from stylus, which is, , your pen as right.It had a certain writing style, and of course it was the words you wrote, but also your, your handwriting and what, yeah, and the quality of the fountain pen or whatever type of pen that you chose to use as well. So I thought that was really interesting. Which comes back, which leads us into the surfboard.So I think that that's gonna determine a lot of your style. And if you are going out on a performance shortboard, people are gonna look at you more like a sports person. But if you're out there on a, on a beautiful, beautiful log and you are going for, you know, form and style, you're gonna be seen as, as more of an artist as well actually.Devon Howard: Yeah, I'd say that is probably a general rule. , At one, once upon a time there was style was really, you know, I think we're about close to the same age. So I grew up idolizing looking at people like Tom Curren in the eighties and nineties and Peak Tom Curren, early nineties, the search Beautiful search films.Um, and then on the Shortboard side of things, you know, again, it comes back competition and sport has driven the departure to, to. Get away from style. 'cause not on the criteria, there's a focus on high performance maneuvers, but there's a return to that. And, and, and over the years there's been people sort of in there, but like a Joel Parkinson, um, who would get underscored because he looked too smooth, which is interesting.Mm mm Devon Howard: And then, um, I think Ethan Ewing is a great example in recent times that the judges really react to it. The surf fans, if you follow the WSL, certainly you know that he's got a huge following. He's a favorite on all the podcasts that you and I listen to, everybody kind of sees him as a return to form, which is really quite nice.I think that's, um, awesome. But at the end of the day, there's still no word or you're not required. To factor in style into the criteria. So it's interesting when you look at, it's not in the criteria, but clearly the style in the form is factoring into the score because he's doing these really radical maneuvers, but really polished, really beautiful form, no arms waving, everything's low and compressed like a Tom Curren or Rastovich, but two or three x, you know, like more like faster and more explosive and more corked out and twisted., But generally speaking, I think it's true what you're saying that you, you could associate that the average sort of stuff you're seeing out there, whether it's competition or just your local lineup, there's not a real focus on the art or or style. And because the board lends itself to. Pumping and ripping and sort of being in and out of tr proper trim.Um, the, there's not that stability to have that good form for some, maybe a lot of people. Hmm. Devon Howard: But then on a log or a long board, or a mid, I'm sorry, a, um, mid length, it's more stable. The board's more in the water. You're not lifting it and pumping it and getting it out of the water as much. Um, so you've got a more stable foundation to kind of work out, you know, you're not under that sort of stress and pressure of making a board work, going down the line and then getting to the different parts of the wave with ease.So I, I think it's true that a general rule could be for the average person, that the board is gonna have a big impact on your presentation. Well, the form, but just the way. You know, other, the rest of us see the way you're riding the wave. , Again, we're not surfing to make other people happier or to please other people, I think.But good form, it feels great. When you're surfing, it's just like swinging a bat. You hit the ball and you connect, you know, or I don't play golf, but you, you get like a perfect swing. I know my friends at golf, so there's nothing like that feeling. You just know that that drive is going way down the field and it's going right where you want it to go.I think that's good form, right? And then surfing good form. When you get a great bottom turn or great cutback and everything comes together, it feels awesome. And byproduct of that, as your friends might keep you a hoot or a hollerer in the channel. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, labeling it as an art doesn't take away from the fact that we want to get better at all.I mean, any musician who's played music is definitely an art form. And if you want to get better, you gotta practice. You know, you practice, you learn music theory, you practice in your bedroom by yourself. You, you might do it for hours and hours and in order to do one jam with a band and have that be artistic.Yeah. So it definitely doesn't take away with our want, our desire to get better and, and certainly to get better for ourselves, not for some competition or, or how we look, just because it's, it's awesome to do that. The, I think just the simple fact is the, the better you are at surfing, the better it feels.Devon Howard: Yeah. It's, , it's serious fun. You're, yeah. You know, because sometimes the word art could. In some people's mind could communicate a lack of seriousness. Like it, Hey, this thing doesn't matter. It's a pointless pursuit. There's nothing to be really taken that seriously. You know, you, you, you know, run into surfers who will, maybe they'll drop in on you or collide with you and go like, Hey man, take it easy.Like, we're just having fun. Don't take it so seriously. Think, well, you know, a lot of us that have sort of dedicated our lives to it, we take the s the serious part of it is, is the practice, like the guy or girl and the guitar, um, you know, they're hours a day. They're, they're taking it seriously, but they're having a good time and they're, they're practicing over and over.Just like someone in a martial arts jiujitsu studio that's hours and hours of training. Um, we're doing that as well. We don't get as much practice at it 'cause we're paddling so much and sitting a lot. It's actually quite precious the amount of time we get on the board. , That's why, back to the very beginning of the conversation, it just takes a long time.That's why it's hard for kids, you know, it's a lot of patience, a lot of understanding and moving through the, the ocean. Um, and then when you actually get up and ride away, it's just a small fraction of your time in the ocean. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet?That's the hardest part of surfing.Devon Howard: It depends how many people are talking to you in the lineup. How many sets in this, while they're talking to you about their real estate deal, you're like, let's surf. Yeah, let's get back. Let's, let's have some serious fun, you know, like I, that's what I always have seen surfing a as like, um, yeah. And, and, and I think, yeah, just like what I was saying earlier, sometimes the, the idea that being an art, I, I've talked to people who take, like, you know, these are professional surfers, people that dedicate their life to it.And I'm explaining to them that it's a, it's an art or a dance. And, and some of these surfers didn't like that. They thought that it, it eroded or diminished the importance or the seriousness of what they were doing. They're like thinking to themselves like, well, I train and I, like, I go to the gym and I run and I do all these things so that I can be stronger and surf better.And like art just sounds like something you do. Like you're doodling in a notepad and it just. Is a pointless endeavor. Um, so there, there, for some people, there's a disconnect with the idea of art. We're clearly all not on the same page on this. 'cause a lot of WSL fans, I'd be willing to bet, would say, uh, that, that, that it is a sport.They do think it's an art, but if they had to choose, you know, they hear they're cheering for people with jerseys. , People that aren't into the WSL would take your stance where you, 'cause earlier you said, well, I think maybe more people would see it as, um, an art than a sport. But I I obviously we don't have the data on that.It'd be, maybe you should do a survey. I, I did, Michael Frampton: I did a small one on, on Instagram. It was, it was about 75 25. So more, uh, but obviously that's a small, that's my listeners. You know, when of course if you're talking to competitive surfers or even, even those who grew up as competitive surfers when they were younger, and, uh, they probably shaped their attitude when, even if they're not competing anymore, Devon Howard: right?Michael Frampton: , But I think taking, taking it seriously and training, and, and that doesn't mean it's not an art form. I mean, Goss, Neil Young has a nutritionist and a personal trainer, and do you know what I mean? Like, he wants to look after himself so that he can perform as art, right? Yeah. It's so can I'm take, still take art seriously?Devon Howard: No, I just, I was only sharing that because I, I'm not saying that there's a lot of people that think that way, but I was a little surprised how I. You know, when you can feel the shift in the energy of somebody who's not liking what you're saying, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon Howard: And I had to kind of talk through it and, um, like, well, it's, no, it's not really the same, you know, like a, a fine painter or a jazz musician clearly is an artist, but, um Hmm.Just had to kind of like re rethink that aspect of it that yeah, it can be an art and it can be, you can also take it pretty serious. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I asked Donald Brink the same question and he was very much in the art camp, and, uh, sure, yeah. I mean, absolutely. And of course that segues into like, he's, when he shapes a board, it's an art piece, you know, and I think you guys at Channel Islands would agree is that there's a lot of.There's a lot of passion and, and thought and care that goes into not just how the boards perform, but how they look and their longevity and all, all sorts. There's very much an an art, an art form, and I wanna talk about the new surfboard, but I, I wanna ask you one question before we talk about boards, which we touched on it, that we spend most of our time in the water, you know, trying to read the ocean, look for waves and paddling around.Sure. Have you got any tips for people choosing the right waves and reading the ocean wave selection? Oh my gosh, Devon Howard: that's a interesting one because, , I use a lot of good surfers use lineups. So when I get to a new break and I don't know what's going on, , it's definitely no art involved.This is more like physics and science now where I. Putting on the cliff cap brain and looking at things, um, from a scientific, like naturalist point of view where surfers study, I think we study patterns. We don't think about it, but hunters, um, surfers that, you know, scientific observers, bird watchers, they study patterns.And so when you arrive to the new break, you're, you know, let's say you don't have a friend there, you have no idea. The old days before the internet told us everything to do, um, we'd have to figure it out. And you just start watching and observing the patterns to see what's going on with the bottom and making a guess on, uh.Sort of sometimes the safety of it. 'cause you could be at somewhere that's like a slab, that's a bit frightening. But if it looks, you can use tell right away if it's a, if it's a u, you know, user friendly wave. So then once you've established that, okay, this is a safe place to serve, , maybe I don't see any fin.So I'm like, okay, there's also hopefully no sharks. And then, then you get out and I, I use lineups. Um, I quickly establish two points on the beach. You know, it's like the two fingers there. It's like with these two fingers, I'll see two palm trees and I'll see a set come in and the first thing I do is I look over my shoulder and I look in and I find two points and I observe about how far apart they are.And then I'll look at the second and third wave and I'll look in and if they're still kind of happening in the same spot. I'm like, oh, okay. We're sort of in a zone and then I'll move around and try to find some, if I can get one of those, another object to actually line up with it. If I can't find something to perfectly line up, then I'll get used to like, okay, there's about that much space between those trees.So if there's this much space, I know I'm like, you know, way off. If it's like over now, if it's like crossed over and gone the other way, I am way off. So I study the pattern that I don't think there's any art to it. I just think if you have good eyesight, you have to use it and have good recall. So, you know, not everybody has good recall.You know, you, you see something happen and then you notice the pattern of it happening again and, and what has changed? Where did that. Thing that's happening move, or did it come in the exact same place? So that's what I'm doing. I'm triangulating, I mean, a lot. There's absolutely nothing new with that. Um, but I do, a lot of surfers I think don't use that., I'm, I'm not an expert of surfing around Kelly Slater, but the few times I've surfed next to him, I'm not his buddy or anything. I noticed that he does the same thing I do. I'm looking over my shoulder all the time and it's not because I'm worried about someone kicking my ass or that I cut someone off.'cause that could be a reason to look over your shoulder. Like I, um, it's, I'm, I'm continuously interested, am I in the right position? And, and I surf a lot of crowded breaks. So switching from like a new break, like I'm trying to figure that pattern out and establish it. That's like the first thing, the most important thing I do, um, at, at home where it's really crowded.I'm trying to understand the movements of the crowd with the current and where everybody's at. 'cause when the sets come, I want to, if, you know, unless I'm a visitor and it's not a break, I'm, it's not like my home break or something. , I wanna be on the top three waves. If it's my home break, if I'm visiting somewhere, I know I'm not gonna get the top three waves., I mean, unless you wanna be hated and everyone to hate you in the lineup you're visiting, you don't grab the set waves. But you can still, even if you're looking for scraps and leftovers, you still want to be aware of where you are and knowing that triangulation. So it's like if I'm on a spot like Malibu and.Alan Sarlo, Andy Lyons, the Marshall Brothers, like all these people that surf there regularly, they're gonna get those waves. But I still wanna know where I am so that once those flurry of waves have come through and there's a few leftovers, those top dogs are out of the way. But I'm, I've ensured that I'm not way too far into the channel.I'm still deep enough in a good spot where theoretically, I mean, it is Malibu, you're gonna get dropped in on, , you, you would be in pole position. So I'm, I'm, it's, it's kind of interesting that to that I spend almost as much time looking out to see as I do looking in. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah, Devon Howard: no, that's a, that's a great lesson.Maybe Michael Frampton: that's a great point. And not only does triangulation help you stay from where you are, 'cause that's where the waves are breaking from, but it also makes sure that you're in the same spot to take all the observations as well. Sure. Which I think is, is important for, for getting to know the break and the patterns.You never Yeah. You wanna be a static observer because Yeah. On some swells, the, oh, it's a different period. They're actually breaking. I usually sit here, but they're breaking over there. Uh, so at least I, at least you know where you are and where you usually sit and now you know this, this is a unique swell or it's a different period.It's, it's breaking over there and you've got a new triangulation or a new observation. So there's lots of reasons to triangulate. Devon Howard: Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question. I mean, it was Michael Frampton: definitely Devon Howard: that idea of what do you, you know, what do you do when you get out there and, and. And then there's also, you see a lot of people who don't really do any of those things and they do just fine.I'm probably just overthinking it. Well, they probably, Devon Howard: but I don't know. I, I, I like the idea of trying to hone in on it. Um, I feel like really good surfers that are getting, some of the best waves really understand that where exactly where they are. They, they do look in. Michael Frampton: I think you also get to a point at, at a break where you don't have to triangulate as much just 'cause you just know, oh, there's a boil there.Whether you're conscious of it or not. You just kind of know where you are in a, in a, in a lineup. You get a intuitive sense for your positioning at, at a certain place. Um, yeah. Are you always just scanning the horizon, looking for the next set? You wanna see the set first or are you want ma la land? I do see waves.Devon Howard: I do because the waves in Southern California, a lot of times are pretty inconsistent compared to other parts of the world. There's some pretty big lulls. Southwell especially, you know, you can have 10, 15 minute lulls of the really bomber waves. So, yeah, I think so. Um, and just trying to see. Yeah. 'cause if people are talking, they're not paying attention, I'll key in on that.I'll notice they're not paying attention, so I'll do a little flutter kick and just sort of move a few inches one way or the other so that while they're not paying attention, I'm just a little bit closer. Yeah. Devon Howard: I'm, I'm not advocating or saying don't take your turn or snake people, but people can kind of work themselves out of the rotation but not paying attention.Yeah, yeah, exactly. Devon Howard: It's funny 'cause like, I find it obnoxious and annoying when people talk, um, a lot. I just, I think a lot of, a lot of people agree with this. My, I don't know if it's a generational thing, but surfing is a place to disconnect. We have. These things. We have all kinds of noise all day long, and the, the ocean's the perfect place.It's like going to a yoga class and everybody's talking. It's like, what? Well, I'll just do this at home. Like I don't need, this is a place to, we can be together and we can connect and vibe off each other's energy. I'm not saying don't say hi to people. Say hi. Hello. Michael Frampton: Yep. Devon Howard: That's enough. Not, but then like, let's settle in.It's like, it, it, I feel like the surfers in the sixties and seventies especially really understood that notion of meditation and just enjoying the quiet parts of surfing, like being okay with the downtime of a 20 minute lull and just sort of sitting there. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally agree with that. I used to be confused as when.Try and talk to someone. Sometimes people won't even say hi. They just, they ignore you and just watch the horizon. But then in the car park, they're the nicest, friendliest people you've ever meet. And you just gotta realize, no, that's, that they're there to watch, that they wanna see that set come first, leave them alone.And you should actually be doing the same thing, like focus in on the ocean. Like read the waves. Yeah. If you're feeling anxious, go in and catch the little ones. Just, Devon Howard: well, you, you actually get pulled out of the rhythm when, when I've noticed, when a deep conversation takes place, invariably you're, you're pulled out of the rhythm of the ocean and you miss, because as you're talking, those other people do, the flutter kicks and they sort of slowly move into position.Mm-hmm. It only takes a matter of inches or feet. Yep. Devon Howard: And shit. 20 minutes, people sort of forget whose turn it is. And if you're not focusing. That, that can be frustrating. So I, I'm, if I've ever been accused of being rude or too serious on the water, it's because I'm from that old school of be polite, say hi.But it's okay to be, have like uncomfortable silence. It's like being in a car ride with someone. A lot of people get nervous and uncomfortable if there's more than like 10 seconds of silence. Yep. Devon Howard: And then they force a conversation and think, well, if the person next to me isn't talking to me, they must be mad at me.It's not a waste. It's like, no, it's okay. Like, just be comfortable being, , in that silence that the, the movie theater thing says silence is golden. Yep. No, Devon Howard: I've had some friends say, dude, that's just way too harsh and extreme. Like you're in an environment where people are expecting to be really social and, and.Talk story and whatever, you know, like just jibber, jabber, like sometimes, I don't know. Yeah, sometimes not. I think Devon Howard: there's a time and place like, yeah, it's like nehi and just your buddy, like there's no hard and fast rule, but I'm just only bringing this up because it, it factors into all of these things that are in play.When you're in the lineup, you're trying to surf, you're trying to have fun, you're trying to be respectful. You're also trying to catch waves. 'cause some people are there to talk. That's great. I love it. Go right ahead and talk all you like It's actually good ground cover. The more people sitting there talking.Mm-hmm. Devon Howard: And not catching waves. Other people won't paddle out. That's too crowded. There's already 50 people out. Yeah. Devon Howard: But sometimes you'll find that half that crowd that has no interest really in getting that many waves. They're just kind of want to be out there. Michael Frampton: They'll, Devon Howard: they'll be happy to get a couple little scraps.Michael Frampton: No, exactly. That's a good point. And you certainly don't judge someone's social character based on the way that they sit in the lineup. It's, um, Devon Howard: so yeah. Well, somehow there's art involved in what we're talking about. Michael Frampton: Oh, definitely. Devon Howard: There's an art, there's an art to the dance of catching a wave and Oh yeah.The art is how do you catch a wave without everybody hating you? Michael Frampton: Um, make it look easy would be part of it, which is artistic in a way. Uh, be res, be respectful. Some, some people get away with it. Yeah. It's, it's a, that's a tricky comment. Well, Devon Howard: it probably has all the answers in those self-help books of like, how to have people like you, you know, there's, there's just things you do right.You're patient, you, you take your turn speaking in a room. You look people in the eye like all these sorts of things. And that sort of can factor into surfing. Now, if you're at like a hardcore lucked out spot where no one, like everyone's mad, you're there. No matter who you are and what you've done, that's a different story.But on your sort of average run of the mill surf break, that's very well known, it's not a coveted secret spot. Uh, it's, I I always find it interesting how you kind of, the art of moving through that lineup and finding yourself on a wave. Yeah. It's Devon Howard: satisfying in a way when you've figured out that it's almost like the satisfaction of being on a hunt, which is like a human, it's built into us, whether you're a vegan or not, it's, sorry, it's built into us to hunt.Mm-hmm. Devon Howard: You're just hunting for berries. Yeah. Some, some are hunting for, you know. An elk. Yep. Devon Howard: But yeah, Devon Howard: there's something satisfying about the chase or cha and like how you get there and the, the kind of the game plan of like, you know, human beings for as long as we know that we've been here on this planet with work together and kind of Yeah.Elk. Um, maybe not so much when you're getting berries. Um, and then surfing. We're all chasing the same elk, but in the end, only one of us wants to get So who gets the elk? Michael Frampton: There's lots of elk. There's lot, there's lots of elk out there though. Yeah, there's definitely a co there's a combination of reading the ocean and reading the room.Sure. Surfing in a, in a lineup and, uh, there is an element of like catching the wave or hunting the wave for sure. But I think once you are in a position where you're, you're just about to join the wave, then it's more about accepting the invitation to dance, then it is catching the wave. Devon Howard: Sure. Michael Frampton: Hmm. And I think that's a more artistic way of looking at it as well.Right. It's right. It's often the way I coach people as well that are struggling to catch waves as well. Change your perspective. Don't just hunt down the waves and try and catch the wave. 'cause you end up sort of, uh, you're being less efficient with your movements if you're just accepting the invitation to dance and your dance partner's playing hard to get, then sort of gives a different perspective on, on catching waves.Devon Howard: Yeah. If you want to get really woo woo on this, what, what about the. Um, I don't understand how this stuff works, but some people will call it the law of attraction. If you tap into the energy, like the energy we have as a human and what we attract, um, for example, if we're negative, um, low vibration, thinking about how bad everything is and how bad people are and that everyone's out to get you.It is really interesting that that stuff just finds its way to you more and more the person that looks at things with a more positive, optimistic outlook. Great things seem to find their way. Now there's exceptions to that, of course. There's really great people that do that and get struck with cancer, unfortunately.But I think by and large, there's a rule there and with catching waves and attracting waves. If you're like, ah, it's crowded, it's, I can't, ah, you know, you see people do that in a lineup and it just gets worse for them. Yep. They're the ones that get in an argument. They're picking a flight with somebody where the patient, people that are just really optimistic and believers that the wave's gonna come to them.It, it comes to them. And then there's the, like, there's the other like, um, really amazing ones that I've always scratched my head. , I've surfed with this guy Victor Bernardo, not that long ago. If you don't know who he is, look him up. Phenomenal surfer. , Wherever he would go, the waves would be I, and I've seen Mikey February do this.I've seen Tom Curren, I've surfed with Tom Curren. I watched it happen. Joel Tudor. There's just, it's more than just knowledge. Hmm. Devon Howard: There's some belief system there that is added into, yes, they have the knowledge, but I mean this happened to Britt Merrick not that long ago at Rin Con. Britt Merrick grew up at Rin Con, knows it better than just as well as any top local, right.Mikey February's sitting next to him and Mikey's having a great session and Britt's like, Hey sit Mikey, sit here. This is the spot. And you know, Mikey's really polite. Oh, okay. Brit. And just a few minutes later, Brit sees outta the corner that Mikey just keeps paddling deeper, like another 150 feet to this kind of area that pretty tough to make unless you caught the wave up top and you came into it at Mach 20.And then if you take off where Mikey is, you might get caught behind. And so you sort of like sit where Britt and most of the people sit and Mikey gets the wave of the day. Yeah. And it's like how it did these things and came to him in a way that didn't make sense to even the most knowledgeable local. I, I don't know what that means.Um, maybe, maybe a a really somebody who understands how the universe works could explain that to me. But there's something about is it his belief? Is he lucky? Is he just that good that he figured out a break that he hardly surfed? He only like, barely ever surfed or Rincon before that. Michael Frampton: Mm. But he is also put a lot of time in and a lot of, you know, there's a lot these surfers that, uh, that we see as magical and so good have actually put a lot of time and effort and I, I actually think, I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge.At North Narab, but everyone's sitting there and then Nathan starts paddling like an animal. And everyone's like, well, I was like, what are you paddling for? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set and starts paddling. He just saw the set before everyone else. He just had a hyper focus on that sliver of ocean.Or maybe it was an instinct thing just from his experienced or his pad pattern recognition is on a deeper level than us. So he saw a, a, a glint of a set further out the back than anyone else. Or maybe there is a logical way to explain it, or maybe it is a bit more woo woo, or I'm not, I'm not sure either.Hmm. Michael Frampton: It's interesting. But yeah, with the, the time we spend sitting there waiting and watching the ocean is, is a, is a big part of it. And of course, what we sit on, what we choose to sit on is a big part of it. And you see over my left shoulder here. Do you know, do you recognize who might have shaped that board?Devon Howard: Is that a Wayne Rich? Michael Frampton: It is a Wayne Rich. It's a harmonics. It Devon Howard: looks like that's it's a harmonic Michael Frampton: harmonic. 67. It is, Devon Howard: yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a stringer configuration he likes to do. , I think part of his stringer influences from Renny Yater. Um, so there's a little, those that know Yater, there's sort of like a, a little nod to him without stringer those stick choices.Um, and that's a great, great model. I've written it. It's awesome. Michael Frampton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a nine, eight. And, uh, you guys at Channel Lines have recently collaborated with Wayne. Can you tell us what brought Yeah. Wayne, why, why Wayne and what brought that on and how did, what was the outcome? Devon Howard: Well, speaking of artists and artistry, um, Wayne would.100% beyond that side of the equation. Um, Wayne is an artist. He's really into sacred geometry and like really like spiritual living. , He feels things deeply. So I think a lot of us that know him, that's what why we're attracted to him. 'cause he is that passionate. He does take things seriously. I've been at Channel Islands at which I was just talking to my wife last night.I couldn't believe how long I've been working with Channel Islands, uh, came here in 2018. I'm like, wow. You ever have those moments where you just have, there's these timestamps where you started something, a friendship, a project, a relationship, and. And it's the things that go by that quick is usually you're enjoying them.It's when you're in living hell that things drag on and take forever. So that's, I think, a good indication that we're having a really great time here. Um, and I've, I've ridden a lot of different boards. I wrote TMAs growing up for a long, long time. Unfortunately, he passed away a little over a decade ago, close to 15 years ago, pretty soon here.And then I rode some friends boards, Tyler Hatzikian, Thomas Bexon, and a few others. Um, I was just sort of like a country list. Didn't really, you know, just kind of went and bought boards from whoever I was. Uh, Skip Fry. Got into those for a while. Um, the, the gliders, he calls 'em big boards. Other people call 'em gliders.Oh. Which is another story for another time. Yeah. Devon Howard: Um, why they're called that and, . Yeah. And so just being here, we did the mid and then, um, some of the guys would give me a hard time. They would see me writing these other boards that I just mentioned and just a little like, mark you on ci. Like, well, we, we have, there hasn't been a new long board design at CI in like 20 some years.They made a bunch of 'em in the nineties and early two thousands had this Mikey De Temple and other, so even Rob Machado had one, you know, and so they, they for sure had a go at it, but they sort of just leveled out. And long story short, selfishly, I, I wanted a board that the guys would give me a hard time on, and it had some channel analysts on it.And so talked to Britt Merrick and it's, you know, he's like, Hey, this isn't in my wheelhouse. It's just not where his, where he is at. He wouldn't even know where to begin, but. He, he had talked about Wayne Rich being somebody who, who, you know, he is a friend of the community. Britt's known him since he was a teenager.And, um, so it was like this perfect fit. We're here in Carpenteria, Wayne's a a a Rincon regular and been in this eight to five zone for many decades. And so, yeah, we just got together and we had a chat about what we wanted to do. So we made a board called the CI Log, which came out two years ago. And then this newest one we just came out with a few weeks ago, it's called the ci Nose Rider.Sounds like a lazy name, but, um, it does exactly what the name says it does. So the, the log was a Australian style, what we call, um, in like, people call it involvement style. It's where you're really moving around in the pocket. It's more of a dance. It's not just hanging out in the nose all day and just standing up there.It's, it's full tip to tail movement. And then the nose rider. Is geared more toward anyone that just wants to hang out on the nose. It's a great, like a Malibu, any point break, someone who's really hyper-focused on the nose, kinda like an air board. It's like, wanna do an air, get the neck beard too. Or you know, whatever model that is focused on that.And then I think the coolest part about it is just weighing the decades of experience and connecting with someone who's that real. I mean, you know, you have his board, he's just like the ultimate underground character. He's just been this guy that, um, you never had aspirations to blow up and be the biggest thing.And so I, I think we all feel real lucky that he was open to the idea of collaborating and , he has a lot of respect for Al Island. So it was just like a perfect fit. But I, I could bore you to tears about all the details of the board, but I think at the end of the day, it's just, it's a work of art. It is very functional.And makes nose riding easier. And then, , our friends at True Ames who are in now, they moved to Caria, but just down the street. Chuck Ames is over there and Troy mother's head and they made a fin that goes with it and it, we had a nice spin in it, but when we were done with the process of making a fin that compliments a board specifically, that's a really fun process.We did a bunch of, tried like almost a dozen different fins. It was over a number of months and made a few versions and then it made the board nose right, even better. So it's really noticeable. If I don't have that fin in it, it, the board still works great, but just works better. Everybody knows they've got a board at home.If they have the wrong set of fins in it, it's a totally different board. It can almost be like a deal breaker and then you get in that right set of fins on your, in your board. Magic. Michael Frampton: Yeah. So, Devon Howard: yeah. Michael Frampton: Oh, awesome. Devon Howard: We that, Michael Frampton: yeah. So it's the, no, the Nose Rider. Um, yeah. Arguably the best longboard shaper in the world working with Channel Islands.It's pretty cool. Devon Howard: I, I think it'd be hard. I, I don't think a lot of people would argue with that. It would, he's won the, um, you know, he is won that icons of foam shape off. He's, you know, he was just in a recent one. He was just in the final, he pretty much won it, according to most people. We don't get in those details, but another contest.

122 Surfing - Art or Sport - with Donald Brink

Is surfing just a sport—or is it something much deeper, a form of art that mirrors your soul?Whether you're a weekend warrior or a lifelong wave chaser, you've likely felt that indescribable magic in the water. This episode dives into that very feeling, exploring how surfing transcends competition and becomes a deeply personal, creative expression. If you've ever wondered why your best session had nothing to do with trophies, you're not alone.Discover why Donald Brink believes surfing is more about galleries than stadiums—and how that insight can reshape your approach to every wave.Learn how intention, presence, and lifelong curiosity can turn every surf session into a meaningful act of self-expression.Hear how legendary surfers and everyday wave riders alike find purpose, growth, and connection through a pursuit that often defies explanation.Tune in to hear Donald Brink unpack the soulful side of surfing and walk away seeing your next session as more than just a ride—it could be your masterpiece.www.brinksurf.comhttps://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=enTranscript:Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] Well, you mentioned them being art, which segues us into, I wanted to talk about, which was. Is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Now let me, , I'll tease you a little bit with some of my thoughts and then I'll, we'll get you to weigh in.So, the Oxford Dictionary defines a sport as senses relating to play pleasure or entertainment. , Some other, uh, definitions, , diversion, entertainment, fun, , frequently with modifying objective, , , activity that you do for pleasure and that needs physical effort or skill, usually done in a special area and according to fixed rules.So surfing definitely fits within most of that definition. Maybe not fixed rules, of course, if it's competition, it definitely does. And the actual, those are sort of some modern dictionary definitions of sport. And the etymology actually hasn't changed much in the origin of the word. I will [00:01:00] add I think those that have a background where their sporting youth was competitive, , you would immediately think that sport was, , competitive as well.And so obviously surfing fits that, but only in a small niche, OO of a hundred, uh, people, sort of, or a handful of competitive surfers in the world. Mm-hmm. Then art, which is definitely has a, some lucid definitions, but the dictionary may explain art, is in the use of the imagination to express ideas or feelings., That can definitely, uh, explain surfing for a lot of us. Uh, the expression of ideas and emotions through a physical medium, often with the intent to evoke a worthwhile experience. Definitely surfing fits that. Something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings.Again, another definition of art, which I think surfing for [00:02:00] me at least, fits in there. The etymology of art. , Basically put a skill as a result of learning or practice. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. Obviously how art thou art has been used in other ways, , which sort of comes back to one's identity as well, which I think, is a cool little nuance there.'cause obviously a lot of us as surfers, we identify as surfers. It's not just something we do. , So there's a little bit of a history of the two words. , And I'd like to hear your thoughts, Donald. Donald Brink: Those, those definitions definitely have an overlap. And I think I would've, , if you asked me to choose one, I would choose art.And I, I think that, , that's changed over time and my confidence in, I, I want be rather just choose one so that it, so obviously it's both, but I would say it's art. And the [00:03:00] reason I'm more adamant on that now is because that's changed over time. Because even my work, people often ask like, oh, oh, these boards, it's such art, you know?And I'm like. No, it's like they're beautiful. They like, it's like, well, I want to hang it on the wall. It's like, no, just go surf. It's, it's like I, I do paint pictures as well, and you're like, that's art. You hang that on the wall, that's gonna, you're not gonna surf that. And then you start to realize either it's all art or none of it is.And, and that's a brave statement. And, and it's not to be cute. And therefore, to me, surfing is art because it has such, , depth and value and meaning to yourself and the inspirations. And, , the things that come along with the, the surfing life to me are sometimes indescribable. And that's what art is.You know, it's really hard to quantify exactly which brush stroke meant that thing come [00:04:00] together, which part of the light in a photograph. Convey that emotion and you don't want to start to study it in such depth that it, um, kills the bird to find the song that then vanishes. So you start to see these metaphors trip on themselves.And, , I prefer if, if there's art in everything to be endlessly fascinated by art, then this is art. And that isn't, 'cause those binary thoughts to me just make it, , they put endpoints on, on potential new horizons or potential dreams. And that's happened to me. Like a lot of board design, not a lot, but from time to time there's been waves I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt on waves about.And those are treasured things. And I'll, I'll wrap this thought up with this. I, , I got to meet Phil Edwards. . A few months ago. I, I've seen him before. I, I'd never met him before. And, [00:05:00] uh, yeah. I was endlessly obviously inspired and fascinated by his legacy to surfing. And a mutual friend wanted to bring him by my shop and introduce us and I was like, such an honor.Right. You know, like, get him to meet Phil Edwards and he came down to the shop. , He was such a lovely man. We, we, how we, we got on like a house on fire. It was great. We were talking boats and design and all kinds of things. And I, one of the reasons I was so interested in him was 'cause he stopped surfing years ago.Just stopped surfing. And I, I was like, I'm always like, man, how do you just stop surfing? That's just strange to me. Right. And I wasn't sure how to ask that 'cause I wasn't conducting an interview. I wasn't sure it was even my place or space to ask. So I, I asked him flat out, I was like, this is, I'm not sure how it's gonna go.But I was like, Phil, do you miss surfing? No, it was about as, as, , as much energy in the way I said it then as it was when I just said it to you now, like, Phil, do you miss surfing? And he looked at me and, and he didn't hesitate much at all. He said, [00:06:00] you know, I have dreams about it and it's still so vivid, it's amazing.And he shared one or two things and we moved on and I was like, wow. It was as though he's still surfing. And it left me more confused and even more interested because I was like, man, imagine the, the data points that I'm getting from my surf just yesterday and potentially that I could get from today's surf could be things storing up inside, which you would hate to meter or measure, but they're in you.And I think they come out of one without being governed or policed, and therefore they're precious. I wanna respect them, and that, that's how art feels to me. I, I've been working on some mixed media, like, like challenging pieces, really like pushing myself as a creative being. And I say that because I can feel [00:07:00] the angst and ah, I can phone this in and just make it look pretty or I can try and find new ground.And, and when you do, stuff comes out from within that halfway through, you get these break points and they're like, wow, I, I didn't know I could do that. And it's, and you, it's not that you're impressing yourself. You, you just can't believe that you were able to be part of this dance of something that came to life, , really through you, not from you.And I'll challenge people to, to compare this to what they've felt in their own surfing. You know, you, you're out there sometimes and maybe it's even when there's a waves are good and then you take off on this little wave. My point is sometimes the most rewarding sensations come from the most surprising little nuanced events, or the most unlikely timing of things., And there's just so much input on the sensors. It's such a sensory activity. [00:08:00] In fact, you would say it's sensational. And that, that used to really bug me, that that's all surfing was. The whole thing's just sensational. And I was challenging myself. What, or am I trying to ascribe too much to what surfing is?Am I trying to add too much value to it? 'cause I'm so either ridiculously into it or, or am I trying to put meaning to something that really doesn't have meaning and therefore make it okay? And no, I love it. I'm so grateful for it. I think it's entirely creative. If you want it to be. And, and I, I think the whole thing is art beyond, beyond words because you can't find the words to explain something to somebody else that meant so much to you.And over time those meanings and those things compound. So sport's cute, but I like to do art and I really, I really think because of that, you could be put [00:09:00] into, oh yeah, well you're an artist. And I'll kick back on that saying I think we're all artists and I, I've practiced art a lot and I've also practiced surfing a lot.And therefore I see the similarities and, you know, I think it's, , the act of surfing it, it really needs to be. Put together as, uh, the adjective and the noun. I guess now I'm talking out of turn, but the, the practice of surfing is something I like to say sometimes audibly. It's like, I'm going to practice surfing today.And it changes the energy in the, in the approach or, , the act of surfing lifestyle, the surfing lifestyle or the surfing life. , These are words you read on book covers, but I think they're really well thought out, you know? , So I don't mind how surfing's explained. I just don't like to be, I don't like to to have end points within my own understanding of it, because it keeps showing itself to be bigger and more beautiful and deeper [00:10:00] and with a bigger and broader community of, of things indescribable for all points of view.And for me, that's important and I'm grateful to be part of that. But, , that's more of a, , gallery setting than a stadium. Mm. And both are cute and both, both are necessary, but I would, I would prefer to be at the gallery. Yeah. No, that was beautiful. I loved that. And , the more I think about it and the more I analyze it, it actually makes me realize that surfing more and more is an art and not a sport.. It is a sport as well, don't get me wrong. If you go by those, , the definitions in air quotes, and I think for a lot of people it is only a sport because it's just something they do for a little bit of recreation here and there. And then obviously, obviously you've got the highly competitive people who treat it as a competitive sport.But for most of us, and I'd say everyone listening to this show, it is an art Donald Brink: for sure. [00:11:00] Donald Brink: And I think I'm not against sport. And that's where I think this could be like, it's like, are you for sport or are you for art? And that sounds like we're both for both. But I love the concept of sport. I just, I, I just think if I had to shake, that's why I was, I'm gonna choose one lane to honor that.So it's like, uh, I think it's more art than sports. , Yeah. Yes. And the other thing too is that it's so personal and it's like there's not many other sports which have such a, , closed feedback loop within just oneself. Like a team sport would naturally be your team player when you enter the ocean., You might be amongst people, but you're really playing different games on the same court. You know, it's you and the ocean and your thoughts, but , the, the school is within your own life and you take away what I call stoke or those little joyous moments. Frustrating ones too. So there's wins and losses, but they, they're kept within one's own heart.[00:12:00] Mm-hmm. Donald Brink: And therefore, it's hard to show me another sport where that happens. So consistently at choice. Yeah. No surfing is closer to music than it is tennis.Donald Brink: Like, I like the concept. What I do like about parameters is they produce really good art. If somebody commissions you to do a piece and you have to, and there's a couple of confines or a narrative script or whatever, it, it really helps give a narrative guideline. And, and it, I think it helps produce good art.Agreed. Putting some confines and so that's why surfing competition is actually really interesting. Just to put a clock against the heat. You surfing against the clock. They're all really good. So. I, I do think therefore you could even argue, that's why the art's so good, because now that's you've put confines.Well, that's the [00:13:00] irony of it all. You look at a competitive surfer. The the ones that win, they're the, they're the best artists. The, I think the only competition in competitive surfing is like the strategy stuff, not the surfing itself. Right? It's the strategy and all that other bs. But once you're on a wave, even John, John surfing a wave in a competition is art.And that's why he's so good, because he is an artist. He's dancing with the wave. Donald Brink: I, I agree. , And so therefore it's like, yeah, those confines produced better art, so therefore it's art. It's, but my, back to my point, it's like trying to think of another sport where you are, , selecting to be so individualistic in your pursuits over and over.. 'Cause people often look at surfing at, at first glance, it seems like quite a selfish activity. And I'm sure it can be. I mean, it certainly can be. , But when you realize if you could cultivate your fascination for the sea, [00:14:00] it could be, , you could be a better husband for the teacher partner by your not surfing too much and also not surfing too little, right?It's pretty simple. So once you balance that fascination, that gets very, very powerful. And I don't see, or at least I can't think of another sport. 'cause I often think, man, what if I didn't get to surf or I couldn't surf anymore? Like, what would I switch this out for? And it, it ends in tears every time.I'm like, I've gotten so much outta surfing. And then you're like, man, am I so shallow that I, I hedge so much on this and I'm sure I'll find something or get really busy doing other things. , But. I can't, you know, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine replacing it. And I think you'd have to replace it with many things.. Yeah. To Donald Brink: fill the complexity of the, and that's why it's unique. That's what I love about it. It's so complex, like these central downloads that you go and get and those humbling [00:15:00] experiences, like being scared in the ocean is something that I do not take, take lightly. I mean, scared for your life at times.And that is such a gift to choose to do because many people don't get scared by choice often at all. And so to do that at will, the learnings that you once again, take away for yourself and you return to your tribe or your family, or your place, your, your neighborhood, your community, you return as a different person.Mm. Donald Brink: That's a beautiful thing, you know? Yeah. Maybe martial arts encompasses some of the things in surfing and that way it's, it's, it's risky. You're playing with the power of something external. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. You have to be very skillful and relaxed in order to do it well. Donald Brink: Yeah. But I think the difference, uh, I like that.Sorry, I'm not [00:16:00] trying to be right here. I think the difference here is that you'll never overcome or, impose your will on the ocean. Doesn't matter how frustrated you get at the wave, it's, it's always going to, it, it's, the ocean's just so big. It's would be like trying to fight the mountain. So in martial arts, you'll, you'll generally explore with another human.So there's, within your mind, there's this concept of day one today. Whereas when you surf, the sea will always win. You're not stopping the tide. It's, it'll come up and down twice a day. That's what it does. And Donald Brink: there's a, that's where the humility comes. It's like, you know, you can't win. You're not, you don't go to the ocean to win.You go to the ocean to, , be part at best. , Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I've thought about this too much, it sounds like, but um, that's, that's why I'm like, no. The other sports that we, I always end up in these little cul-de-sacs. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's, mm. Yeah. I mean, there's so many reasons why [00:17:00] I think surfing is more of an art.Then you're connecting with nature. It's, it's all, it's borderline a religious experience. It's the, it's challenging. It's scary. It's fun, it's playful, it's artistic, it's creative. It's, Donald Brink: mm-hmm. And those restrictions that you might, if you're commissioned to do a painting, has certain restrictions. Well, same with surfing.The waves are the way they are. The board you chose to ride that day is the way it is. Mm-hmm. The crowd is only gonna gift you certain waves. Like there are so many restrictions every time you go surfing. And if you can play the hand, you're dealt Right. You have the opportunity to dance with the wave however you want to and create yourself as long as you're in the right spot yourself.Yeah, exactly. Donald Brink: And not getting in anyone's way. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting. That's. Think about these things when you're trying to understand like, you know, what a [00:18:00] governing body or a sport entity is doing right or wrong within a surf space. See how well I worded that? But you know, like the judgment on how to run a surf competition is, um, you know, it's endless.But I'm always wondering is like, it's almost 'cause it's, it's not a sport and everyone wants it to be a sport 'cause they're getting paid dollars to win, right? Or dollars to be endorsed. But the best parts that we love about surfing, like if, if there were no competitions you would land up with, what we would have left with would be amazing surf films and people enjoying the ocean every day.So if you think about the best parts, and this is just me talking now, but when I think about I do, I watch, I follow all the tour and everything and the like, some of the best parts are the fact that it's almost like a live version of a surf movie. And so it's still. It still is what we always will want and need and enjoy, but it doesn't necessarily make it a sport, it's just there's an [00:19:00] overlap of the things that it'll always be.Um, it's, it's just, it's really interesting and I, I do think it helps surfing and it makes surfing more understandable and more broad. And yet all of these things really don't matter. 'cause if you don't like surfing, then it doesn't matter. 'cause it's those who do will cherish it and hopefully be responsible with it.But yeah, it's, I, I don't know. LikeI think you have to, ah, I'm talking in the wrong space. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think that, that, there's an, an interesting irony there because even those who treat surfing like a sport to the extreme, the professional surfer in a competition when they're actually doing the act of surfing. It is an art form, the same, the same way that an Olympic gymnast is judged.The, the ones who do it, the smoothest and the most beautiful and turn the sport [00:20:00] of gymnastics into an art form, those are the ones that win. Mm-hmm. Donald Brink: Yeah. It's, it's, it's neat to have winners. Um, it's, we like winning.It's funny, I was thinking about this just being on the Gold Coast at Burleigh, and if you had to suspend the competition and just have a group consensus of who surfed the point the best over two weeks, I think you'd actually land up with similar winners. Right. There'd be some incredible standout locals watching them understand that wave and surf it so well.But my point is, good surfing is inspirational. Like watching somebody. Put a performance, and you could call it a performance together. It's, it's so just, um, it's amazing and the depth and detail and nuances to us endlessly fascinating, but also to a layman, somebody walking up the point watching a competent surfer put a ride [00:21:00] together is it's, it's quite obvious, right?So like having to put clocks and jerseys and heats and buoys in place just to find that is almost hilarious. Like at the end of the day, the ocean knows we know, and yet none of it matters. And yes, it's still interesting, but you know, there's, here's my point. You know, those days when you, you went surfing and you realized that you were so in tune and you, you kind of surfed beyond what you thought you could and you didn't win anything and it didn't matter.Mm. Donald Brink: That, that is quite a beautiful thing. I think very rarely we've seen somebody do that in a final, and that would be the highest level of sport, right? To see somebody just lose themselves in a performance. And it's from time to time. I'm sure that happens, but my point is like, if you are not that person and [00:22:00] it, it really doesn't matter to you.So the fact that you can level up and go beyond yourself within these, within a sort of, and find new levels and heights and connections and have a dance put together on a wave, let alone a bunch of wave and put a session together. Like are we constantly at sport with ourselves then, is the question? Hmm.And in terms of winning? Yeah. Because like you described that the moment where you surfed better than you had, you won. Oh yeah. You won against. Yourself yesterday. Right? So you became a hundred percent, you became a better artist, let's say. And I, I think the competition surfer, I think when a competition surfer wins, they, the feeling is similar in [00:23:00] a way.'cause they know, oh man, I surf that wave beautifully, probably because of the pressure. Pressure makes, made a diamond in that case. And not only did I win the thrill of the wave, I won some money, which gives me the opportunity to surf this amazing, the, the next amazing wave next year with only two people in the water and create more art and, right.So I think you we're winning a surf competition. I mean, look at Kelly Slater. He just kept on doing it. I don't think he, he didn't need the money. He didn't necessarily need any more trophies. I think he just wanted to surf pipeline with two other people in the water again. Donald Brink: Well played. I mean, that, that's the game of life then, not the game of surfing.It's like, oh, you get to jump through these hoops and you get, these are the little perks, you know, it's, that's quite brilliant. You know, we, I mean, you do that in any decision in life. You, you play the game according to your lifestyle you're looking for. So it's back to lifestyle now. [00:24:00] And therefore that's quite a creative composition of how to spend your days or your best, um, cardiovascular years, let alone your joints.Um, and for me, I choose surfing and it's, um, it that shows itself from time to time in conversations where, like, I, I have foil board at one time and it was incredible, but I, I just chose to not invest in spending that much time getting good at something else, which I know I'm gonna love. 'cause I wanted, I know life short and I want to be so deep in what I'm doing that I.I dunno if it's wrong or right, but for me I was like, I'm gonna stay purely focused in this lane 'cause it helps me understand my work. And I'm not judging anyone being divided in interests, but I knew how much time it would take someone like myself to get proficient at foiling. And so I was like, that looks incredible for me.I'm gonna say no, only 'cause I'm looking for a, uh, I know I could surf better and [00:25:00] deeper with the consistency that I'm still chasing. I think the consistency in surfing is the measure that most people don't talk about, and to me is the most important thing. , And the most consistent I can be with my approach to any day, any board, any session, and be in control of that consistency is really what I'm aspiring to.'cause that then you can tap in and balance yourself in life like I can. Pop in at the beach for 40 minutes at the right time of the day with the right equipment, ride six waves, and be back to work and be radically changed with the shortest amount of, neglect to other things that I'm really interested in too, whether it be work or art.Right. So therefore that's, that's a creative balance. And therefore surfing is, it's, uh, I don't, even if you wouldn't agree, that's the creative act of surfing is creative, that the balance of its lifestyle is quite creative, you know? . Yeah. You've gotta stay on top of your skills, otherwise [00:26:00] you can't take those opportunities.Like, if you've got the opportunity to, to attend band practice once every month, and you don't practice in between, you're not gonna, you're not gonna enjoy that rehearsal hour that much because your skills aren't sharp and you didn't, you didn't sink in with the, with the song. Right. Donald Brink: I think the future of surfing is being able to be accurate in challenging conditions.I'll say it again, accuracy in challenging conditions. I've, I've summed it up that succinctly because I've thought about this so much, but I think as surfing gets more crowded and popular, uh, the difficult waves are gonna be the ones you get to enjoy either on your own or on the smallest or fewest people are like the smallest crowd, right?But they're harder to surf. That's why no one wants to mess with them. But if you're able to tap into that and either stay polished or just have fun and that's what you enjoy, I think it's really difficult to, to ride small, weak [00:27:00] waves. But it's, it's of huge value if you wanna stay tuned for when good waves do come or when you do get chance to be on a trip, or when you do get a day when it's too big for everyone else to paddle out.Like there's, there's a repetition and a favor to trying to stay. Um. But also that needs to be fun in and of itself. And I'm endlessly fascinated by these, um, small and crowded waves that I choose and get to ride on my own. And I'm not sure if it's just 'cause it's, it's better than fighting in a crowd or if it really is of long-term value, but it doesn't really matter.It's just interesting to me. So yeah, I'd rather set better wage, but also it's maybe not like when you really look back like what is surfing? And you're like, it's the pursuit of excellence within oneself. It means nothing to anyone else. So like if you said it was, um, [00:28:00] if you, sometimes I think of serving as a puzzle.What's the next piece to put together within a performance on that wave, let alone waves within a session you could build, , really difficult puzzles.That's quite a radical choice. So back to making things hard to get more out of it. Yeah. That's, that's just an interesting part of life. . Yeah. Imposing new challenges. It certainly elicits the flow state. Donald Brink: I like that you said flow state, because as you said, imposing new challenges. I was like, I, I, I don't know that surfing and tricks need to be, so, um, that sounds kind of sporty to me, like the tricks within surfing.It's like, well, yeah, there are maneuvers that seem unnecessary and they probably feel good and that's why you do 'em. But then there's efficiency in [00:29:00] connecting energy parts of a wave that we put together as what we call a beautifully ridden wave that felt good to do. That's what I'm consistently talking about.And if that requires an air within that, that's great. But the, once we consider categories of technique and, and, um, proficiency in a trick, I get a little lost. Can't do most of them, that's for sure. But that is a different thing. And I watched the wholesale vibe. It was fantastic. Like, yeah, yeah. It's, but it's a Donald Brink: different thing at that point.Surfing, I think simple surfing is the best, you Donald Brink: know? Well, until, until you realize it is, it might not be for you. And that's why it's, it's your own thing. Like it's, it's your own fascination. Like what are you really, fa like those ISTs must be incredibly fascinated by putting their body at those potentially dangerous positions over and over.Like [00:30:00] the, like imagine being injured and sitting out for that many months, that many times within a life that you're only 24 years deep in. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk that. And so you let some sections go, right? It's just a different fascination and an incredibly incredible ability and incredible amounts of, um, refinement gone into consistently pulling off maneuvers like that Netherland in a shallow pool.Um, it's like, what are you, fascinating? What are you fascinating with? And how do you unpack that best? Um, that that's, that's how you would approach a complex puzzle or a challenging art piece. It's just problem solving, right? Like how, I'm not sure which, which part of this next paintings a layer or, and then you, and then you break through and you find, ah, and then you get a little more momentum and then.You get, uh, you get the wobblies and then you lose confidence, and then [00:31:00] you get these little breakthroughs and then all of a sudden it's done and you at best know when to stop. And that's good editing. And that's probably the hardest part. It's kind of like surfing too, and it's like, okay, it's time to end the session and the waves are still pumping and you didn't have to be anywhere.But sometimes it's sit on the beach and watch the next four sets and just realize what you've been a part of. That's maybe a maturity that I'm starting to see. And it's, it, it, um, it doesn't add value to the session. It just helps resonate the memories that you've gleaned and therefore maybe files them better and protect, I don't know, maybe I'll get to dream out of or from them.So being really precious with those, um, times. Yeah. Do, do you think surfing becomes more of an art. The older you get or the better you get or the more experienced you get? Donald Brink: A hundred Donald Brink: percent. I think, I think one, one of the thoughts I had [00:32:00] today was, , if you think of surfing as an art, then it's like, well, there's some pretty bad art out there, mine included.At times you make terrible decisions or distasteful selections on a wave or on a board color or in a wetsuit choice. Like, like it's still life. The, it's not a, it's, it's not a hundred percent all the time. How boring would that be? And, and yet you see people's growth within their own surfing life. And that's why you don't want to judge.And these statements really need to be taken with huge amounts of salt, please. But you see people new to surfing that get fascinated deep enough, and then they wanna learn so badly that they'll almost like get in their own way. Then others just naturally acquire these skills and they're quite proficient and you realize they're probably good at a lot of things.They try, you know those people, right? Mm. Donald Brink: Um, they're just really quick learners or like taking feedback or pinpoints. And now with the amount of [00:33:00] coaching available and those kinds of opportunities, you can learn, you can shortcut the learning really quickly. And yet still, if surfing is an art, then your creative body of work is really your surfing life, your surfing lifestyle, the way you understand what surfing is to you and how you responsibly cultivate that relationship with surfing, which means with surfing and everybody else in your life too.There's, there's other relationships. It's always complex, right? Um, I think you'll see people surfing change over time and yeah, things go in and out of style and in and out of fashion, but you creatively get more, um, astute to what this thing means to you and how to balance it. . I think if you are only fascinated by very, very good waves, there'll be a time when surfing just gets so frustrated and you hang it up.I can think of so many people that have done that, and that's interesting. It's, it's not our, I am, and I'm kind of grateful for that. 'cause I'm kind of not sure what I'd switch [00:34:00] it out for. So that's their path to discover. But right now I'm fascinated by how it is and how I'm approaching it daily now. I guess surfing is like, if you think of, let's take, let's take music as an art form. If you are, if you first start learning the guitar Donald Brink: mm-hmm. Are you practicing art? Donald Brink: No. You, you, you practice so that one day you can play. That practice, if possible, should be fun 'cause it keeps you interested. And if you're interested for long enough, one day you might be able to play a song and sound like you would like it to sound.So when you learn to surf, you're practicing surfing, and one day you might get a really nice wave, come to you and you'll blow your mind that the, the feeling [00:35:00] of how that felt and the how ridiculously happy you feel for the next day, week, month, year. I don't know. My point is you walk away with that sensational, change the stoke, right?So I do think there are times when you practice surfing and there are times when you perform surfing and they're usually, um, premeditated. And if so often there is a overlap within it. Days when I'm on the beach training and I, I've used those words. I'm either going to therapy or I'm going to training and I'm surfing all by myself.Meaning I know the kinds of things I'm working on, like riding very difficult boards is a hard pill to swallow except I know what I'm looking for. And so that would be training, that would be like exercising one's ability, refining your ability, highlighting [00:36:00] your pain points. So there are times when I practice surfing like a musician, learning a new scale Donald Brink: a hundred percent.And therefore I'm staying tuned, I'm staying activated, I'm staying interested and not all of it is fun. And yet I know I'm on the larger overarching NA narrative. This is gonna return dividends. 'cause on the right section, I know my arms are gonna be in the right place. And with these films on this rail.This feeling is what I'm not chasing, but when it comes, I'm gonna be so grateful for it. Yeah. That's why I like that. Yeah. I I It's your intention, isn't it? If you're practicing or you're learning how to do something, but you're doing it because, like, think of music. If you, you're, you're practicing the guitar, you're doing it because you want to be good at the guitar as an artist.Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. Right? Not as a professional or a sportsman or whatever. [00:37:00] Donald Brink: Right. It's such a creative outlet. Like it's nauseating when you see somebody surfing really well on your, can't surf as well as that. Right. And you're like, wow, that must feel amazing. And yet to them it probably, it feels okay because they, they, until they're pushing themselves that feeling, and that's why I don't like the thing of tricks.It's like, it's not like until they land on your trick, they probably won't feel happy. It's, if you are not in tune, no matter how well you're surfing, you know that you're missing out on what you could have done or wanna do. Right? So your vision for how to surf that wave with, with flow and seamless transitions and reading the wave properly should be always growing.And when you do from time to time, get it right, it's undeniable. That's what keeps you coming back. So I think looking at other people surfing and imposing what you are able to do or can't do, you gotta be careful for that. You wanna push yourself constantly. And that's a practice. , , I mean, it's [00:38:00] almost like, it's like people learning to surf shouldn't ride good waves, which is a terrible statement, but it kind of could hold up, you know?Like there would be, I. If you went to low as an only really proficient surfer surfed out there, it would be an entirely different experience. Now, you wouldn't wanna put a gate on the, on the, at the, at the sea. Like you don't wanna, you know, gatekeeper the place. However, if you work on your surfing well enough and you get proficient enough, when you do get to surf a good wave, you are not gonna be in the way, you're gonna be in the right part of the way of doing the right thing, and the memory's gonna be really rich.So, yeah, I, I, I'm still trying, I'm trying to lend a surf still. Mm-hmm. Which Donald Brink: is incredibly fun.Yeah. The, the guitarist sits alone in the bedroom doing a lot of practice. They don't [00:39:00] practice on stage. Donald Brink: Please, no. Get off the stage. Go learn your, go learn your stuff. It's not the time or the place. Yeah. You might as well go down to the closeout beach and just catch white water after white water and practice your timing.There's reps Donald Brink: exactly. There's reps to be had with nobody around. And, and if you, if you, if you do speak to musicians long enough, there is this relationship with that practice. You know, it's kind of still, it's still really fun. And so if you think of surfing as a sport, then you would train for sport. And yet why you would think it is a sport.'cause it's like people will switch it out for another sporty activity. It's like, well I'm not, I'm not running at the moment, so, but I've been surfing a lot. I haven't been going to the gym. I've been So you're switching it out for a cardiovascular. Endure endorphin releasing kind of activity. And that's, that's all true.But then you also need to switch it out for, well, [00:40:00] that means you should be, you, you're working on your pedal technique when you're surfing. Right. And then, and how the breathing exercise is going. And, um, the wave Ki program, how, which, which module, like there's parts of the responsibility to it being a practice that is pretty obvious if you want to call it a sport.And yet even more logical if you're creating art, 'cause you work on how things work and then you manipulate them or be able to play with them without of your, your, um, pantry of options. Yeah. You can, you separate practice and play. You're still an artist. Donald Brink: They coexist. There are times when I'll approach the sea and I'm certainly putting my hand up. Yes, this is a practicing session. I'm going to practice surfing, and yet there's still moments within which good surfing is happening, and I have the most amazing joy. So there's a performance that means nothing to anyone except myself.That's what surfing is. I [00:41:00] think that's odd, but they do overlap by the strangest ways, but they are, um, I just don't like that hard line between like the sep binary separation between practice and then performance. It's more, um, the lines are blurred as you, Donald Brink: uh, I'm trying to think the best way to, I was, this is one of the things I was thinking about, but, , I grew up studying the Bible a lot and there's a verse in the Bible.That, and it didn't, A lot of it still doesn't make sense, that's for sure. And, and it's, most of it's like skewed in a narrative that that's just, it's silly. Anyway, there's incredible wisdom there that I do look for. And, and the wisdom rings true, and therefore I like it. Anyway, there is a verse that says, go into all the world and share the gospel, and that gets like, oh, you should do it this way.But the, the [00:42:00] verse actually says, as you go into the world, and so what I was thinking about was like, is surfing who you are, what you do, but it's the way you do it, the way you, you go about life as a surfer. You do not drive down PCH without looking at the waves. Once you've started surfing, that's, it changes who you are.So as you go about surfing, the way you can conduct yourself as this artist, if it's art. Is there therein, I think is what the message was. That's that. If those were the words of Jesus, they make total sense. 'cause they, that seems to be true. You know, you can carry that with you. It's the way you go, as you go.Um, anyway, that, that was the best way I could understand it within my own self. 'cause I've wrestled with that thing before and I was like, well, that kind of makes sense with the art and the, the sport thing. So, so is Donald Brink: for whatever, is it worth surfing? Is gospel, [00:43:00] no, surfing is art. And if art has truth within it to you, then it'll be true somewhere else too.Like, so you can't force a narrative on somebody else. But if I talk about these things in surfing and you haven't felt them within yourself, then why does it matter? But if you have, then we resonate on a similar thing. And I'm not trying to be right, but if that makes a difference to how you see or understand something that that could be really joyous within your own life.Like this has got nothing to do with you or I, it's got to do with whoever's listening and there surfing. Right? Like I constantly have to remind myself, and it just happens naturally, really. But to get out of the, the what's going on and that it's going on, like you remove yourself from this. 'cause like, otherwise surfing is just selfish again, but it's, it feels something that you then bring back to the rest of of life with you.Mm-hmm.[00:44:00] Donald Brink: Yeah, I agree. It's quite simple and yet it's really difficult to put words to, and here I'm rambling on and on and on, but it, it, I do wanna be careful 'cause the words matter, you know, like, . I think not not trying to bring meaning to surfing, but just acknowledging that it has great meaning is, is enough for me.And it's taken years to get to a place being so comfortable to say that. And I think I didn't grow up in a surfing family. They have no idea about what this whole thing's about. It's pretty hilarious. And now having a young family and my son surfs and we are enjoying sessions together, it's such a joy.But they all know how much surfing means to me, and they, yet they don't understand that at the depth, nor will they ever, and that's okay. Well, Let's say you have Kelly Slater and Messi, the, the Great Footballer Messi. Sure. Both, both are artists, I would say.I would say Messi is an artist within the sport of football. [00:45:00] Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. And I think that he would say that football is a bit more than a sport for him personally. Of course, like his relationship with the field and the ball and the goal and the opposition, et cetera. He would probably describe it similar to the way you and I might talk about surfing.His love of the great game and, and then when you watch him play, he's, the ball is on a string and he's, he's doing art. So I think that for surfers, surfing is your thing, but then other people, whether it's football or cross stitch or whatever it is, I think almost any pursuit can be an art if it's given enough.. If it's given the permission, if you give yourself permission for it to be an art, and it means that much to you. So the best, right? The, the people that are at the top of their field that do whatever it is, beautifully, you could say it's an [00:46:00] art for them, whether that's a sport like football or tennis, or whether that's painting or music.Donald Brink: Well, there's a mastery there for sure. , Yeah, I, I agree. If, I mean, if something's fascinating enough, you'll go deep within it and within depth , there's incredible beauty, you know, , messy and Kelly have complex lives, and yet they've seen something deeper than most other humans would ever see in that space.But that even at the end of it, it only means anything to them. And then we can glean and look and listen from it. But at the end of the day, you come back to your own life and your own surfing and your own soccer ball, and who are we? So there's this narrative of like, can I create. But yet I'm also in creation.It gets as simple as that, you know, like you're part of something and yet it's still you and yours. Um, and then you get to share within that. Like I think the gift that Kelly's given us has been incredible. He [00:47:00] is, , contribution to surfing beyond many other things is very inspirational. And the way he carried that torch, I'm sure he is looked back with regret on some things, but for the most part, like he's incredible ambassador.You know, I've heard him speak at many things about those kinds of things of how much surfing's giving him and how much he wants to give back. And it just makes sense. Um, , I was watching this.Art show. Gosh, it must have been 16, 17 years ago. It was a long time ago. And it was an art competition with these artists that they would give them. , It was kinda like a cooking show. You'd have briefs and then someone got eliminated. Someone got eliminated and throughout the weeks, and then you'd land up with four finalists and they had a commission and they did this thing and they chose the best artist.And once again, it's like, man, it kind of got cringed 'cause he had to make it competitive to make it meaningful. Anyway, similar to what we're talking about. But I remember, I, there was this one [00:48:00] artist, I really liked his work and, um, he didn't win. But what he did in his final was, it, it was really, it wasn't clever, it was just well thought out and it was moving., I, I still remember it. And one of the judges got up. I wish I could, I wish I'd remembered their name. I wrote it on a sticky note and stuck it on the bottom of my computer. And it said, good art isn't what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. And he didn't win. And that was the condolence to him.Like, 'cause you could tell he should have won maybe. And yet the scores showed that he didn't. , But that's what they said. They said, good art isn't what it looks like, but how it makes you feel. And it was very helpful for me at the time, creating, I've always been creating, but like formally showing up and getting commissioned or paid to create [00:49:00] something, whether it's a surfboard or a painting, photograph film.And so therefore understanding that was very helpful. And then when you think of the conversation of surfing being so much of a feeling, and that's okay. There's a, there's a really beautiful overlap there. It's not what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. You know, when you, it feels like you're ripping and you're not.And then you learn to surf better and you realize that you're inefficient. And now you can get to more places with more agility and ability and it flows more proficient. Like that's why we want to get better at surfing. But the end of the day, as long as you're not in anyone's way, if it feels good, that's, that's kind of a good thing, you know?And that's enough. So yeah, I had those thoughts the day thinking back about art and how it feels to create and there was an overlap there for sure. And I dunno what it feels like to be a very proficient [00:50:00] sports person. And that would be interesting to, 'cause I don't know what that's like. So it, it's, it, I don't have a good point of view on that.So I'm already just talking as an odd point of view. I'm realizing I've played sports, but I'm, I've never been that good at something or played it for this many years, you know? Well, how it makes you feel. Yeah. As a surfer, nothing feels better than surfing. And if you are a Donald Brink: surfer and if you have the perspective that surfing is an art and you're expressing yourself creatively, surfing is an art, especially for you.And then you take someone like, , I mean the film Kelly Slater Black and White, is a beautiful piece of performance art. Not, not just from Kelly himself, but the filmmakers as well. But obviously the focus is Kelly's surfing, which is performance art. And how does that make us feel when we watch it? Like we almost get, oh wow.I can imagine what that might feel like. I wanna go surfing [00:51:00] now. Donald Brink: Right. So, and then messy playing in front of 50,000 people he's performing there is, is an element of performance art the way he would feel. I. You know, obviously he would love kicking a ball around by himself. But to, to score a goal in front of 50,000 people that are cheering at him, there's a, a certain, a different feeling, not just for him but his supporters as well.So they would get to feel some of what, oh wow. They can imagine if they play football as well as sitting there watching it. They can imagine what that must feel like to score a goal that beautiful in the heat of the moment and Donald Brink: Right. So therefore a sports athlete could also be a performance artist in that scenario as well.Donald Brink: I mean, you see people like you stand at pipe and watch somebody score a 10, I've done it the last two years. It's pretty incredible. Like watching Baron getting blown out of that wave and the clock time. Like there's an energy within that and [00:52:00] once again, like that becomes bigger than what it was. So therefore, like this whole thing is you, you, you, part of creation he was creating within create, I can't think of better ways to.Try and understand it within myself and even not, not trying to put words there to meaning and an end, but yeah. He was creating within that creation. And the creation was this man, that amount of people on that beach with that many people watching online. And it was such an energy. It was, it was really cool.And those are little moments of Lavonne and it's, it's a beautiful thing that was art created for sure. Um, that's a museum time, you know, museum piece. A little capsule. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Art is so, gosh. Yeah. This, I mean, performance art. And you think it's, you know, when standup comedians often when they talk about themselves, um, you know, they are performing artists.Oh yeah. And they're often very self-aware and they'll even say, oh, I, I love being on stage. I love being the center of [00:53:00] attention. Please look at me. Please laugh at my silly dick jokes, or whatever it is. They're very aware that they love the performance aspect of it and Right. Being the center of attention and whether someone like Kelly Slater would, would be willing enough to admit it.I, I think he gets off on being the center of attention and a performing artist. And I think a lot of athletes are that. However, if he's to surf by himself on some boat trip when everyone else is, uh, having coffee, he'd get maybe more out of that or just as much. And that, but that's more for himself. It's still, it's still art.I mean, I think surfing is a, as many different forms of art. Donald Brink: I mean, it's a yes and right, like you're still a human, like someone stroking your ego at that level, you know, of course you're gonna tap in. But I often think of it this way, like, if all the surfboards went away tomorrow, would I still show up and go for a body surf?[00:54:00] And it's an absolutely yes. So like if you strip things down to like, are you really still interested in this? If all the competition goes away, would those surfers still surf? I'm pretty sure most of them would. Right. So therefore they are surfers. Are they winning surfers? Well, that comes and goes. But I like to think of it as simply as that like without a board, you still enjoying the waves or to see, or just a body of water, and therefore, like, it kind of takes the nuance of all those other things.Of course, they matter and they feel good or whatever, but I do like the concept of surfing in the, in the simplest form, you know? Mm. Well, I mean the, in the analogy there of body surfing, you are, you're still surfing and you're, you're connecting with something bigger than yourself. Donald Brink: Exactly. And something that has a long history behind it too.Playing in the ocean. Donald Brink: It's almost like listening to our [00:55:00] conversation now and trying to like, really. Not see if I'm saying the right thing with just clawing for words here, but it's almost like a surfing competition really should be showcasing that. It should be more of a waterman appreciation thing.Like who's the best body surfer, aerialist, tube rider and point surfer. And I can tell you exactly who I think would win those, like the axle woodman. And you're like, oh, well this isn't what we're doing. This is what we're doing. It's, it's all fun, man. It's all good. But I, I do respect the creativity or the art, the art life approach or the surfing life.Art life, surfing life. Transposes, the art, artistic creation or expression of someone being proficient from body, surf, swim to, to bride. I could name my two favorites and it's, uh. That is incredibly deep to me. Like, wow, the things they must have felt and seen and the way they carry [00:56:00] themselves through life with those memories and responsibilities is, that's pretty high level man.That's, that's a life, that's an interesting world of life. I, I, in my opinion, I'm interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The connection to the ocean. And then from a performance perspective, you're connecting with the audience as well, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the connection is a through line.Donald Brink: Yeah. I think 'cause you're present, you know, like it's, you, you start landing up in, um, yogi terms yet pretty quick. It's, um, like, yeah, you, you're in it, you know, you're only feeling it. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's cool. Yeah. Touche. Yeah, it's good. It's good stuff. I mean, but yeah. Back to the listeners. I see, I wanna keep thinking about these people.I can't believe they're still listening. I think there's three of them. I dunno. But set out to, like, [00:57:00] I don't say, I don't wanna like premeditate surfing, but set yourself these little challenges and go play in the sea with this. I'm still learning mentality. It's, it's quite liberating. Um, I'm practicing surfing.If you say it out loud, there's actually some science behind, I forget exactly how they quote it, but like, um, it interrupts the conversation in your head. So, Donald, I'm going to practice surfing right now. You address yourself in first person and it, it's quite disruptive, but do it with your surfing. Like start playing and messing with it that much, that responsibly.Oh man. It just gets more interesting and it, and interesting is the word I choose because it doesn't get, um. Deeper. It's already deep. It's just looking into it for long enough that, uh, is the difference maybe. Mm. I I like to say to myself, I, I'm going to play surfing. 'cause I like the music [00:58:00] analogy as you're going to play music, I think brings an element that Donald Brink: conversation with that exact, uh, concept.Yeah. The act of play in that we don't use it for surfing. I've had this with a friend just, just a month ago, like, yeah. 'cause he was writing, , Substack articles on play. The concept of play and how it's like, it, it really well written pieces. James, lovely young man, and he, um, I was like, man, it's interesting that we don't switch that out for surfing.We don't come play surfing. We come and maybe practice surfing or just perform surfing or just do surfing but play. And we riffed on it. We were in the water, which it was not a great place to chat, but we took the conversation on land and. It was, I like that to play surfing. . Ironically, the best surfers in the world, they learned from an early age, which is when it was pure play.Kids just playing with the whitewater and then on body boards and then trying to surf Dads surfboard, they're playing [00:59:00] with it, or watching my kids learning surfing now, and they just, they don't wanna surf like anyone. They just love catching waves and just playing. Donald Brink: Well, I, I agree. I think that's really interesting.But I do think now in 40 years, we're gonna be able to have data and have to look back and see people that started surfing late and, and die surfing after staying true to it, maybe being exposed to it later. What that kind of relationship will be later. Like if you started playing, would it, uh, on an average forecast that it'll end this way, or if you.Arrived to it late. I was only 15 years old when I started surfing, which is quite a late blooming. Right. Um, but then there are many examples of pros that started that late too. I believe Dan Reynolds started. Oh, really? Oh, I didn't know that. I think so. Wing Wingnut started at 17, but he body surfed since he was five.Donald Brink: Uh, maybe a better grounding to be honest. Um, but there are people that start later and [01:00:00] it, it, it is interesting. I, I do like that concept of play, but I don't think it's, and that's what's cool about surfing. It's not, there's not one way. Mm. Donald Brink: It's, it's your way 'cause it's your surfing, you know, like it's, it's your thing.Yeah. Yeah. Food for thought. Yeah. Well, actually in, in the episode with Aaron James, we, we talk about that a lot. About the play, play, play and, and stuff. Really interesting. He had some really interesting thoughts on that. That's episode 1, 1, 1 for listeners, but yeah. Um. I think the year your relationship with surfing does, not everyone, but a lot of us, it evolves and it becomes more playful than we get.Well, that would make sense. Donald Brink: Yeah, that would make sense. If you look at the rest of life, you know, you see some PE people retire out of what they formally did as a career and start picking up new interests or whatever it is, like life moves on and so do you. And therefore, as you change and your understandings and your, your vault of [01:01:00] memories come with you, you know, we are who we are and we've been fused and formed from the goods and bads that have happened to us.So like, like those things, you are not in control of everything. And yet to be able to approach something and tap into it with this practiced years of appreciation, I highly really like that. Uh, because you don't know what's coming. And I just, I'm grateful for every day I do get to surf. Um, yeah, I, I really am.I think that every day that goes by, the gratitude deepens. Like what this is. Um, yeah. For me Donald Brink: it's been LA lately just sitting on the beach and watching a few waves and it's like, okay, well maybe you don't have the luxury of time. Just no. Like if you have 45 minutes to surf, we'll sit on the beach for five of those and watch waves.It's a good investment I fund and this is what I've found. So try it on for yourself and see if that fits. But I think it's coming out of [01:02:00] this large gratefulness, this generosity towards what it is and just even removing yourself from it and like letting those waves go and ridden. This is a beach and nobody was at the last two days me surfing all by myself and it was like, just sat and watched a few waves and it was meditative in a way.Uh, meditative. Yes. Donald Brink: Oh, definitely. Yeah, that's been fun. Cost nothing and it's changed everything. Like that was just the last two days. I had no idea we were having this conversation. Like there it was. It was like, that is interesting. I'm just gonna watch. I'm gonna wait for the next set now. It was just so interesting.It was like mindset and, and what it did was just, just blossom some. This gratefulness within me has, has really, it was quite surprising, I would say that. And I'm even more grateful for that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We

121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink

Is your surfboard truly helping you become a better surfer—or just keeping you comfortable?In this episode, we explore a question that many surfers overlook: are you riding the board that suits your potential or simply what the surf industry has marketed to you? Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, learning how equipment shapes performance and self-discovery in the water can revolutionize your approach to surfing. Discover why changing boards regularly—even riding the "wrong" board—can massively accelerate your progression.Learn from Donald Brink’s radical experimentation with ultra-narrow surfboards and how it unveiled new layers of wave reading and board control.Understand the deep connection between board design, wave selection, and self-expression that transforms surfing from sport to personal art form.Tune into this eye-opening conversation to challenge what you think you know about surfboards—and uncover the path to becoming the surfer you were meant to be.http://www.brinksurf.comhttps://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=enwww.surfmastery.comTranscript:

120 Still Ripping at 60: Tony Roberts on Surfing Performance and Longevity

What if your best surfing is still ahead of you—even in your sixties?Many surfers fear they’ll lose their edge with age, but Tony Roberts proves that it’s possible to surf better than ever through intentional lifestyle choices, foundational training, and a lifelong commitment to progression. In this episode, we explore how rethinking surfing as a sport, not just a pastime, can lead to lasting performance and deeper fulfillment.Learn why starting with longboarding could be the single best thing you do for your shortboard technique.Discover how the right mindset between sets—using mantras and mindfulness—can transform your in-wave performance.Get inspired by Tony’s radically focused lifestyle design, optimized entirely around surfing longevity and peak performance.Hit play now to uncover how Tony Roberts has redefined aging through surfing—and how you can too.Tony’s Website etc:https://trsurftrips.com/home/http://www.youtube.com/@RealSurfStorieshttps://www.instagram.com/trsurfing/?hl=enTony on Surf Splendor Podcast:https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/025-tony-roberts/Episode Music:https://www.instagram.com/tuanizmusic/?hl=enTranscript:Michael Frampton: All right. Well, welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Stoked to have you on board. And I'll just do a quick intro and then we'll get into it. , Tony spent the first little chapter of his adult life as a pioneer in the filmmaking and photography surf industry. And then the second chapter of your life, let's call it, you, dedicated yourself to becoming a better surfer into you're now in your sixties now and surfing better than ever., You almost epitomized the ethos of this show. And my first question, Tony, is describe to me in the listener , your current relationship with the ocean, how it's evolved recently, and what has remained consistent.Tony Roberts: My current relationship with the Ocean is. The focus of my life. [00:01:00] So that means everything that I do is in an effort to maximize my enjoyment and performance in the ocean. , What has remained consistent is that the ocean has been the focus, whether it was, as you said in the first chapter of my life, which was, or the first half of my life I should say, which was filmmaking and photography, which was centered around shooting, surfing and skateboarding, which is kind of the roots of that goes back to the ocean.Then the last half of my life has been about actually the act of surfing. So all the land stuff I still skateboard. The [00:02:00] skateboarding, the training, the nutrition, the mental and physical flexibility is for the surfing. Michael Frampton: Wow. So surfing in the ocean has remained consistent. Where, when did that passion start?Tony Roberts: When I was eight years old, I was very fortunate that I was raised right on the sand in Capitola, California, which is on the very, very inside of the Monterey Bay. So it has all these perfect little grom spots. So it's the perfect place to learn how to surf. And then as you go up the coast north. You have point break after point break after point break that gets bigger and more exposed to swells.So it was just the ideal learning ladder to climb. It went from capitola to trees to privates, to sharks cove to the hook [00:03:00] to pleasure point to the west side of Santa Cruz, steamer Lane, Stockton Avenue, and then up the coast, which is open ocean. So you have Wadel Creek, Scots Creek, and then started traveling to Hawaii, Australia, Indonesia, Peru, and the whole world.Michael Frampton: . That's interesting. It's, it's a common thread with a lot of great surfers is they were exposed to good beginner waves very early on in life. Do, do you think that really did shape your surfing passion? That, that, uh, we'll call it a gentle, gentle, or appropriate introduction to surfing at the right age?Tony Roberts: A hundred percent. Not only did it form my passion, because I saw all these people that were surfing and skateboarding, and this was the seventies, so it was right in the middle of the hippie era. So it was these free and free love. My parents were hippies, and so I, I saw the passion around me and was able [00:04:00] to really have that injected into my early persona.But more than that, I think the technique of learning at a beginner spot, where ideally if you're gonna learn to surf, it's at a young age, and at any age it should be on a slow rolling wave with a big board. So you can learn the basics and the trim and the core strength before you have a short board.And you're, I. Able to learn proper technique. So yes, growing up in a beginner friendly zone and being able to graduate up was crucial in my not only passion but skill. Michael Frampton: . Once you'd sort of clicked onto surfing and were surrounded by better surfers and better waves, was the desire to, [00:05:00] to be one of the better surfers?Was that, how did that form Tony Roberts: Yes, absolutely that was really cultivated skateboarding because at Skate Park So Cal, which was close to my house, I was able to really quantify my progression. Whereas surfing, that's kind of hard to do, but a lot of the best skaters. Skate parks, So Cal were of course great surfers.In particular, Kevin Reed, the guy who invented the aerial surfing was a pro surfer. Pro skateboarder, and he mentored me. So as a young kid, I was able to look at this amazing surfer, skateboarder and really quantify my progression. So I really wanted to be progressing and I wanted to be [00:06:00] the best guy for my age, and I wanted to win contests, surfing and skateboarding.And I wanted to be able to surf the waves that I saw in the magazine. So that desire for progression was planted very early. Michael Frampton: Was a big part of that. A desire to be able to surf faster and bigger waves. Tony Roberts: Absolutely, we'd go to the surf movies and it was all about Jerry Lopez, Reno. Avalara getting goosebumps right now.The, the big movie, you know, with the, with the soundtrack and, and the dramatic narration. It, it just got into your bones, it got into your blood. And I saw those waves and I wanted to surf 'em so bad. But also in the seventies, of course, it was the busting down the door era. And my friends were just all about [00:07:00] bk., James Jones. Uh, Rory Russell. But in reality, for me, it was all about Rabbit. Pt. Mp. I was really attracted to Australia, and as a very young kid, I knew. When I got the chance I was going to surf Kira Burley heads, and that was really my dream. So my entire youth surfing was working towards that. Michael Frampton: More performance surfing rather than big wave surfing.., Back then, particularly did you approach surfing as a sport or an artTony Roberts: as a sport, which didn't really exist yet? It was still very much [00:08:00] so. The, the flow and the hippie aspect of surfing, that's what was in the magazines. Hmm. And a surf photo it in the seventies was the wave. A surfer was a detail, but skateboarding was different. There was a lot of fisheye, close photos in the skateboard magazines where the action was the entire photo and the bowl or the ramp was a mere detail in the background.And I was so influenced on the skateboarding end of things because I was 50 50 my whole life. And so I wanted to perform. I wanted those repetitions and so much so that surfing as a youth, if I didn't get a lot of waves, I would come in unsatisfied and go skate to be able [00:09:00] to fulfill that, that desire to be complete.And so I think that it was very much a sport. For me personally in the age of it being an art. Michael Frampton: Interesting. And has that changed? Do you still, do you see it as more of an art now?Tony Roberts: No, not at all. It hasn't changed. Um, what has changed is that I love to ride traditional longboards. I love to ride single fins. I love to do a style of surfing that's very artistic, but it's in a process of becoming a more complete surfer. And I feel that those styles of surfing are incredibly technical in a different way.But having done airs [00:10:00] surfing my entire life, starting when I was pre-teen and getting to a stage to where in my forties, wanting to learn traditional longboarding for the first time, I. And so I'm more driven to be a complete surfer and be as good of a surfer as I can be. It gets more intense as the years go on.Michael Frampton: , Interesting. How did, you mentioned, uh, when you started, you started longboarding in your forties. How did that change or influence your shortboarding?Tony Roberts: Wow. I, I have to say it was probably the most important thing I've ever done. , As my foundation became so much [00:11:00] better, my bottom turns trim, board speed, and I was very fortunate in that I was living in Costa Rica at the time. And a friend of mine, Chris Klo, started bringing down the best traditional longboarders in the world who were young guys, Alex Nost, Jared, Mel, Tyler Warren.And when I saw those guys surf, I had a revelation and said, wow, I really want to learn to do this. And, uh, so I got to hang out with these guys, buy boards from them, learn to longboard surfing with them, and actively ask them, what am I doing wrong? How can I improve? And so they very transparently told me what I was doing wrong, what I was doing good.[00:12:00] And that clinic of foundational surfing helped my shortboarding. By leaps and bounds. Michael Frampton: . Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I agree. I've interviewed Bud Freis probably six or seven years ago, and that was one of his tips is to get a big old log and learn how to longboard best thing you can do for your short putting. I took his advice and yeah, it just, it makes you, it forces you to read the wave differently.It slows you down. You've gotta predict your lines differently. You gotta be slow, slower, and more accurate with your movements. Lots of stuff. Footwork, lots of stuff.Tony Roberts: Yes. Yeah. Michael Frampton: , What aspects of longboarding do you think contributed to your, to, to what you just mentioned? Can you break it down a little bit for us?Tony Roberts: Absolutely. [00:13:00] First and foremost, it is, I. When the waves aren't good for shortboarding, you're out there using a part of your brain that is very ambitious in trying to perform, not just enjoying nature and cruising and going through the motions. No really getting intense and trying to do something amazing.And that is a day that if you're trying to shortboard, you're pretty much kidding yourself. And so a day that's maximum longboard, traditional longboarding is minimum at best shortboarding. So that's first and foremost. Secondly, the core strength required to properly trim and turn a longboard is the only way to do it [00:14:00] properly.If you're doing it with your ankles or you're using your arms or any of that stuff, you're completely blowing it. It's a very core internal technique that not only moves the board but looks good, and so you wanna be bending with a straight back. You don't want to be hunching over and, and all of that traditional longboarding technique.When you get on a, a short board and I ride boards that, that are all different sizes, including little boards that are basically like a standup bodyboard. And so when you're getting on these tiny little boards that just wanna squirrel around, but you have that core strength technique, all of a sudden you're like hugging the wave and carving these little [00:15:00] boards.In a way that is really proper technique. And then when you get on your normal shortboard, you're able to really draw out your turns and hold your turns because it's, in my opinion, it's a method that you have to ride all different sizes of boards to, to come to. And I think there's a few surfers in the world, they just naturally kind of have that, that technique.You know, like Bud Friis is one. He was born with an amazing style. Um, Joel Parkinson. You know, you've got these guys that no matter what they do on a surfboard, it looks amazing. But I think for a normal surfer to be able to cultivate that, that full rail core strength, um, never a double hitch in a bottom turn.Never a flapping of the upper [00:16:00] body. Just everything you do is, is proper. That riding all boards is gonna enable you to do that on your shortboard. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, I love that. They say the same thing is true in golf, right? You don't change your swing, you change your club. Same rule applies I reckon percent. Tony Roberts: And when I learned golf, I got lessons from a PGA pro.I was so, so focused on learning all the etiquette. 'cause golf is a gentleman's sport and you don't walk behind someone in their back swing or talk or step on someone's line. And the way that people approach surfing with so much disrespect and disregard for proper etiquette, which infuriates us lifelong surfers.When I approached the sport of golf, I was very, [00:17:00] very adamant about learning it the proper way and not skipping clubs and not using woods until I could hit the irons and really approaching it in the most respectful way as possible, using the proper shoes, not going out there in a t-shirt and sandals, but really respecting the sanctity of this incredible sport.Michael Frampton: , Yeah, I love that. And you're right, a lot nowadays, people certainly do not approach surfing anywhere near with that, , amount of thought. On that note, if there are any beginners listening at the moment, what advice would you have to them in that regards? Tony Roberts: Yes. Well, I think that if you approach surfing with a lot of respect, then that would be.Before even talking about the social [00:18:00] aspect is self-respect, and that is writing a beginner board in beginner waves until you have that board and those waves mastered. And do not try to graduate and skip steps on the ladder because that's not being respectful to yourself and to the expert surfers in the water.They can see that a mile away that's not being respectful to them. So you have no reason using anything but a 10 foot soft top in one foot, slow rolling waves until you have that mastered. And then when you have that mastered, you go to the next step, then the next step, then the next step. And you shouldn't be riding a shortboard in advanced waves for years.Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, I agree. And that's a great way to think of it actually in terms of self-respect, because that is, that, uh, short process you just [00:19:00] described is the best way to learn surfing, because surfing is a long-term sport. It truly is. It's, there's no, there's no shortcuts in, in surfing. It's just one of those things.It's so dynamic, so complex beyond your ability to realize when you're young and it's, every surf is like a compound. It's quite compound interest, isn't it? It just takes so long to gather up. It's not like tennis where you can go and smash a bunch of balls in the same place with the same ball machine or the same coach and get pretty good in six months.That's not surfing. It's, that's great advice. Yeah. It is a certain level of self-respect because if you are going out there and you're getting frustrated 'cause people are dropping in on you or treating you like shit, well it's probably because you've skipped some of those steps and uh, they're just reflecting back to you your own attitude really.Tony Roberts: 100%. [00:20:00] And furthermore, if you don't do that, you'll always surf like a kook. If you learn on a shortboard, you'll always surf like a kook. Every single person out there who just jumps on a, on a shortboard and didn't go through the learning process, they didn't learn how to turn the board with, with core strength, and they start turning it with their ankles and compensating with their upper body.That's why a lot of in third world countries, nobody has a good style because nobody knows this and they all learn on short boards. So if you wanna have a good style, it helps. If you are doing this when you're a little kid and you're learning on a longer board, but if you're an adult and you're learning on a shortboard, you'll definitely be a kook your entire life.Michael Frampton: Mm. Yeah. No, I, I love that. Makes me think of, , Julian Wilson, someone who has not only great style, but pitch a [00:21:00] perfect technique. He has a longboarding background. Yeah. Tony Roberts: Perfect example. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I, I wanna go back to the, we segued a little bit, but I want to go back to the, the art versus sport subject. I.I, I'm fascinated in your answer. I, I kind of expected you to say art because I, I, 'cause I would argue that even when you treat surfing like a sport, I-E-A-W-S-L competition, the surfers that win those competitions when they're actually surfing the wave, I feel like their surfing is very artistic. And there's the, the, of course you've got, uh, tactics and technique to get the right waves and all that sporting stuff, but once they're actually surfing the wave, it's, they're approaching it as an art formTony Roberts: perhaps. But in my opinion, I see art [00:22:00] in the aspect that you're talking about, in the way that an amazing NBA player dribbles up the court or in the way that a, a Street League skateboarder puts together their run. But. In my opinion is just artistic sport. The sport is the act of riding the wave. And if you are sitting out there and you're just enjoying nature and you're just having a, a spiritual moment, that's artistic.But I don't look at surfing like that. , And it's because of my skateboarding background. I want the opportunity to try something. And in between sets, I might take in the view and acknowledge the fact that it's a magical moment in nature, but in reality, I'm saying [00:23:00] mantras to myself before the next wave comes, so that I will perform as, as well as I can in that short given.Opportunity that I get that's between, you know, 20 and 90 seconds, depending on the spot you're surfing. And I also have somebody filming me. I want to get a good clip. And so some of my mantras, for example, are I'm sitting there between sets waiting for the wave to come and I'll say to myself, crisp takeoff.Crisp takeoff. And I'll say it over and over to myself in my mind, just so that I don't get ahead of myself. I'm not thinking like, oh, I wanna do an air on this wave, or I wanna combo up. No, no, no. Because if I can get a crisp takeoff, which is hard enough, after 52 years of surfing, I still sometimes don't get a [00:24:00] crisp takeoff and I blow the entire wave.But if I do get a crisp takeoff. Almost always magic unfolds down the wave because we have all the instinct, we have all the ability. It's, it's logged into our mind. We have all the practice, but we get in, we get in our own way with having too much crap in our mind when we're paddling into the wave. So if I can get a crisp takeoff, chances are I'm gonna do magic on the wave.And another mantra that I use is simply, and this is usually after I'm, I kick out from a wave and I'm paddling back out and I'm, I'm playing back that wave in my mind, what I did good, what I did bad, and maybe I did something funky, like a spray check or something where if you do a spray check, your board stops because the nose of your, your board is gonna follow your head, right?And if your head is looking where you want the board to go, and your head's following [00:25:00] through and holding the carve all the way to the bottom of the wave. You're gonna do this amazing carve, but sometimes we do this stupid little thing where we like look at our spray and the board just stops and you fucked up the whole wave.And so paddling back out. Sometimes I'll acknowledge that I did that. And then my mantra, no matter what, between the next sets is going to be form. I'm just gonna say to myself over and over, form form. Sometimes I'll compound it with crisp takeoff form and that's all I'm thinking. And then I get into that wave and I'm thinking form, and I know that I'm gonna have my head going the right direction.You know? I don't know if you saw that video that Ger did with AKI recently where Ger had all these backside snaps of aki, like ready to show him. And he said, AKI, he goes, you know why [00:26:00] your backside snap is the best of all time. Aki iss like, no man, I never really thought about it. And he said, it's where your eyes are.He goes, look at this snap. And it's that classic Billabong Jbe ad where he is just like all rail and just perfect form. And he goes, look at your head. He goes, you're looking down the line where you want the board to go. So you're completing your snap, but you're already looking at the next section. So that's able, while you're able to hold the rail, come out into a full bottom turn, keep it on rail and into the next snap.That whole process was on rail. There was no hitch, there was nothing because a's eyes are always on the prize, so I'll say mantras to myself between waves and that is really how I keep the, the performance at its peak. And so that's why on all [00:27:00] aspects, for me, it's always a sport. Never an art. Michael Frampton: Okay. What about music? Do you see any, uh, similarities between surfing and music? Tony Roberts: I see music almost like a tool for the sport, and I'm a musician and I love to play music and I'm always trying to get better at music. Also. I mean, I enjoy the artistic aspect, but it's a process, you know, I'm trying to improve.And it is not a sport, obviously, it is an art music, however, it's a performance art. And I think that in sports, if it's a performance art, it's a sport. Hmm. Tony Roberts: A creative sport, an artistic sport, a [00:28:00] beautiful sport, but a sport nonetheless. Michael Frampton: So dancing.Tony Roberts: Dancing. And I also absolutely love to dance. I'm always trying to get better. I'm always trying to learn new dances. I want, like for example, I've lived in Latin America more than half of my life, and certain dances like cumbia and meringue, they're really easy. You can get really good if you have natural rhythm salsa's, incredibly technical.It's incredibly difficult and I've got 30 plus years, 40 plus years learning to dance salsa and have taken lessons, and it is, salsa is borderline a sport. Hmm. And there's salsa dance competitions, and [00:29:00] I often use the comparison of surfing and dancing salsa because for example, right now the big controversy is should Kelly Slater get the wild card at Trestles?And people are saying, oh, he is older and he doesn't have the, the board speed he used to have. And I have to remind people that surfing is a sport is a lot closer to a salsa dance contest than it is an MMA fight. So board speed and physical strength in an MMA fight is everything but in a salsa dance contest, experience and transitions.Mm-hmm. Tony Roberts: Are gonna win the contest. And it's very rare that some young couple is gonna be able to [00:30:00] step up and take out what is experience. So I feel like dancing is an art, but there are contests and it is judged and there are winners. But just like surfing, you're gonna have one judge who thinks couple B is better than couple A, and that has to do with their background and their biases and maybe even what country they're from.So there's a lot of similarities in sense salsa dance contests and the WSL. Michael Frampton: I think surfing almost bridges the gap between sport and art.I think we're, I like to think of it as an art often because when I think of sport, I think of competitive [00:31:00] sports. But when I think of art, I think of music and being in rhythm and having good timing and technique. So for me personally, at this stage of my life, having good rhythm, timing and technique and just keeping things smooth and appropriate for the wave and the board, I give it more of an art label rather than in, in my twenties I was out there, I wanted to, you know, three to the beach, do the biggest turn.I can sort of pretend I was being judged, I think. So that's where the definition, but I agree. I think they are surfing is both. Tony Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. Like everything that you described that makes it a art for you. I want that in my. My ride and on that video clip and in my next video, it's not just to do it for the expression, the artistic expression.No, it's uh, [00:32:00] it's a concrete thing that I'm trying to accomplish. But surfing, as you said, bridges the gap because for it to look good, it has to look free flowing and not mechanical and artistic as it were. Michael Frampton: . I think if I was as surfers, if we were to snap our fingers and all of a sudden we are standing on our surfboards feet in the right part of the board.Surfboard in the right part of the wave. From that moment on, surfing's actually pretty simple and easy. And that the hardest part of surfing is what happens in between when the surfboard is under your arms and under your feet.How, if Tony Roberts: you have the ability Absolutely. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For experienced surfers or any, anyone really. I mean the, the surfer, the, the ratio is what? One minute of [00:33:00] surfing to every hour, if you're lucky in the water. Um, so what we do in between when the surfboard is under our arms and under our feet.What advice would you have to people to manage that part of surfing? Tony Roberts: Oh, man. That's everything because surfing are these fleeting moments and anything in the world. You do in an effort to improve your surfing is gonna pay off huge. And that goes fromgoing to the gym, improving your diet, um, spiritual development, whatever religious faith you might [00:34:00] be., Anything that you do off of the board that is consciously to improve your surfing is gonna pay off huge. And especially in training. And I've heard people say that the best training for surfing is surfing.Bullshit. Surfing will destroy your shoulders. It will destroy your ears. It will destroy all these different parts of your body that the human body wasn't made for this out of balance activity that will destroy you. So yoga is the complete mind body strength, flexibility, discipline, workout that was invented thousands of years ago and perfected [00:35:00] thousands of years ago.And if you adapt that to surfing, it's the best thing you can possibly do for your surfing tomorrow and for your surfing longevity. And that will compensate and balance out your entire body so that your shoulders and these other parts of your body that are getting this unbalanced workout. It puts it all back in balance.Michael Frampton: . Those moments when you are standing on a surfboard and dancing with the ocean, do they inspire you and drive you to, to, to, to practice yoga and eat healthy and get to bed on time, et cetera? Tony Roberts: 100%. Everything. It, it influences every single decision I make in my life and has, since I was a young child.When I was a young [00:36:00] child, I said, how am I gonna be able to surf as good as I can my entire life? And that's been my lifelong mission. And I stopped eating animal products as a child, for example, and started studying Buddhism. Yoga as a child, and that has been a hundred percent for surfing and going through life and relationships.If you're gonna be a good husband or boyfriend, you have to sacrifice surf time. And for me, I figured out pretty long ago that that doesn't work with my lifestyle and my goals. I'm not going to sacrifice and I'm not going to compromise my surfing for a [00:37:00] woman,period. So that means that my relationships only go to a point to where it's not going to interfere with my surfing. And the same goes with my decisions with work, my decisions. With lifestyle, my decisions with diet, my decis decisions with exercise. And the reason why you don't see surfers, I don't see surfers my age doing themselves justice because they've compromised for work, for relationships, and that's fine.That's their priority, but they're not at their full level because of it, none of them. And if you really want to be at your full level, then you need to be a hundred percent committed. There's no [00:38:00] half-assing it. And if you put 20% of that effort into your relationship or you're, you're still drinking and you're still eating hamburgers and smoking cigars and all that kind of stuff, you're not gonna be at your peak level.Which is fine, that's your personal choice, but if you are gonna be at your peak level, it takes a hundred percent commitment. Michael Frampton: . Yeah. And it is, I mentioned the word compound interest. It's interesting to see you improve as you age despite what society tells us should happen as we age. And that your consistency and dedication and commitment to surfing has just seen your relationship to surfing.And with the ocean, just the depth of it increases. And, uh, [00:39:00] yeah, you're still obviously inspired by it greatly, and yeah, it's, is it, is it your most successful long-term relationship? Surfing Tony Roberts: Without a doubt. Also with my daughter who's 19 years old, um, which hasn't been as long as my relationship with surfing, but is I feel like it's a hundred points also.And I was very fortunate in that her mother broke up with me when she was pregnant and was a third world country girl in the middle of nowhere. And I said, well, if you're not gonna be with me, then I'm gonna take the kid, but you're still gonna be the mother. We're gonna drop in and visit you once in a while, but I'm taking the kid.And she signed off on it. So I raised my daughter myself and my concept when she was [00:40:00] an infant was, okay, I'm gonna try to continue living my ideal lifestyle and raise her. And once it's not working out, then I'll compromise. For my daughter, but as it turned out, I never had to compromise and going on my vagabond, following swells, being in different countries at my favorite surf spots during the peak time of the year and focusing everything around that worked out amazing.And my daughter had this incredible international universal education and now is an unbelievably, um, inspirational adult that is now teaching me. So Tony Roberts: [00:41:00] yes, I think that surfing has been my most, my longest relationship and it gets stronger and stronger with age because. I learn as the years go on, how to eliminate the other things in my life that interfere with it.And you mentioned society like this does not work with society at all. And I listen to my friends and other people talk about their relationships and, and what they think is normal. And it does not, it's not conducive to a, a lifestyle where you're committed to surfing if you're in cold water or you're dealing with traffic or you're surfing waves that you don't wanna surf, that are crowded or not surfing because you're at work or any of those things.At one, if, if surfing was your number one priority at one stage of the game, [00:42:00] you wouldn't have sacrificed and you would've made surfing work. And to do that to the fullest. You wanna be in the tropics, you wanna be at a good wave that, that you can continually progress. And if you sacrifice that for work, again, good on you, that's your prerogative.You can live however you want, but you didn't do yourself justice in, in the surfing end of things. And that's what society dictates. And I really don't see any, I've never met anybody who, like myself, is going to go a hundred percent committed to surfing performance in your, in every aspect of your life, in all of your relationships.And guess what? People are gonna respect you more women are gonna want you more when they can't get you. [00:43:00] And your child is gonna have a much more fulfilling education. When you are homeschooling her, you are teaching her on the road and linking her up with professional professors, getting her specialized education, and it goes so many miles beyond what society has dictated for us.And as a surfer, if you're first prior priority is surfing and your own surfing performance, and that is your priority, that leads itself to the best diet, the best religion, the best ethics, the best morals, the best person that you can be contributing to this entire planet because that's what surfing dictates.Michael Frampton: , I love that. I love that. I think it's also to add to that [00:44:00] your daughter's growing up with a parent. Who is modeling what can happen when you do narrow things down and don't try and do everything and focus on something, how good you can get and how you can develop a relationship with something like surfing over time.And it's, I I think that's missing in a lot of, a lot of adults. Tony Roberts: A hundred percent. And it goes back to the word you said, society, you know, and people that they, I can't believe it. I can't believe that they just fall for it. You know, all my friends, we were all the same when we were 13, 14, 15. We all wanted to be in the tropics.Those things that we drew on our notepad, the perfect point break with the hammock, with the dark skinned girls and bikinis running around. I. The, [00:45:00] the cement ramp on the beach, like the doodles. That's life, man. That's freaking life. Michael Frampton: Yeah. There'll be people listening who are thinking, oh my God, how dare you not prioritize your daughter's education?And yet their teenage child is in their bedroom on their smartphone while they're having a glass of wine and watching Netflix. Tony Roberts: Yeah. And my daughter's education, she's 19 years old, and now she's already incredibly successful. Yeah. I mean, I wish I earned the money that she earns and, uh, it's, it's incredible.Very cool. And as Tony Roberts: you said, it was from, she saw an example of somebody who had a focused goal, but that focused goal. There's so many aspects that are integral to go into that diet, [00:46:00] nutrition, lack of stress, spiritual strength, mental and physical flexibility training regimen. That's all she's ever known.And now she's taking it to the way next level. Michael Frampton: Mm. Yeah. No, I like that. That's, I mean, 'cause we we're talking about things that we do anyway. Everyone eats, everyone goes to bed at a certain time. It's just, are you eating for mouth pleasure or are you eating to fuel a better surfing journey?Tony Roberts: That's it, bro. You nailed it. Michael Frampton: , I wanna go back to the time between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet when you're sitting out the back, paddling around waiting for waves. I. How do you manage your focus and everything above, you know, above eye level, your head? How do you manage that?[00:47:00] Tony Roberts: Yeah, I try to stay away from people. I don't look at people rides unless it's somebody that is on a high level, because if I see somebody cook it, it can get into my subconscious because the flow I have in my mind is very, verynext level. It's built on mindfulness meditation practice. It's built on shalin, um, tai chi techniques. , So much has gone into that mindset between waves. I can't let any of this peripheral stuff interfere with that. And it's also very [00:48:00] important to be cordial and say hi to people. , But maintain focus, as you said, that's, that's the key word right there.And how I do it is concentrating on my breath, returning to the present moment using mantras, and really visualizingwhat I'm going to do on the wave in the aspect of keeping an open mind when I drop in. Reading the wave and giving the wave what the wave calls for, like getting in crisp takeoff and then looking down the line and not having anything in my [00:49:00] mind and reacting to those changes of the waves. I got to work a lot with Kelly Slater and filmed him all over the world, and he's the best I've ever seen at reading waves.It's incredible how he can react to what the wave is going to do, and sometimes he'll be out there the whole session and doesn't do any errors and people are like, oh, look at him. He, he can't do errors anymore, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the best ramp of the day comes in and he does the craziest error that anyone's done in months, and it was the only one he, he tried because.He's only gonna do an error if it's a perfect ramp. So he's a great example in having an open mind when you drop in. I don't think he ever thinks I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna do that when he is paddling into the [00:50:00] wave. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, reading the wave is the hardest, the hardest part of surfing and, but all great surfers do it.Well that's something that's, that no matter what style of surfing you want it or you do reading the wave is the foundation of it. Right. And that actually starts before you stand up too. Right. You've gotta choose the right wave. You've gotta sit in the right spot. You've gotta paddle in at the right angle.You gotta time your takeoff. And when you say crisp takeoff, what? What do you mean by crisp?Tony Roberts: A good popup. Good popup. You know, from the hands straight to the feet. In a millisecond crisp, you know, and sometimes that means doing a plank, you know, like hands on the rails, feet on the deck, and letting the wave build and [00:51:00] going down the first sixth of the wave in plank position, and then, then right at the right moment snapping to your feet.It doesn't always mean like getting in early and getting up quick. No. Crisp means that popup, it's perfect. There's no like stumbling to the feet. There's no like need grazing the, the, the deck as as you're standing up. It's just that those hands to the feet in like a millisecond, Michael Frampton: but Correct. But timing's everything, Tony Roberts: the timing, as you said.Michael Frampton: Yeah. 'cause there's, there's a difference between quick and fast.. Yeah. You wanna time it well. So would you say that as you're paddling into, and maybe you're in a plank and you're waiting for the right moment, that whole time you're already surfing the wave, like surfing starts before you stand up?[00:52:00] Tony Roberts: Well, that depends on your definition of surfingMichael Frampton: in terms of your, you're not trying to get the perfect popup in exactly the right spot per se, because maybe you misread the wave a little bit so you're remaining adaptable and just changing the timing of your popup. Maybe you hold back, you know, you're always sort of reading the wave one once it's sort of got you and you're almost in it, you're already kind of setting your line.You're, you're surfing the wave, at least visually. Before you even pop up. So a popup is still a maneuver in surfing. So people often say the bottom turn is the first maneuver. My argument would be, it's actually the popups the first. Tony Roberts: I agree with you.Michael Frampton: So crisp, crisp takeoff. I like that.Yeah. Hmm. [00:53:00] Tell us about your surf trips,Tony Roberts: my personal surf trips or my business? Michael Frampton: Your business. Yes. Tony Roberts: Yes., I do a surf trip package where people can come surf and shoot with me. Um, usually they don't get to surf with me very much because I'm shooting the whole time and have a second photographer or filmer shooting as well. But I have a website, tr surf trips.com, where I offer trips to the best waves at the best time of the year that are my favorite spots in the region of Central America and the Caribbean.After being down here for, [00:54:00] you know, 40 plus years, full-time, I've got completely dialed. Where's good when it's good. And I know all the locals everywhere, and I know the best places to stay. So depending on the size of the group, um, the surfers interest their level. I make these trips for them that include all transport, accommodation, and I film all of their waves.We analyze their waves. If they want coaching, I give them coaching. And at the end of the trip I make a trip movie edit for them as a souvenir, which includes not only their waves, but scenics and on the road experiences. And this has been a way for me to use a [00:55:00] lifetime of filmmaking, professional photography as senior staff photographer for Surfing Magazine, official photographer of the Quicksilver Crossing.I was on the Indie Trader for three years on the boat filming all the best surfers in the world. And that project was, they wanted the culture and the surfing, photography and cinematography, which was why I was the perfect fit for that project because I've been in these cultures immersed, bilingual for so many decades that I was able to capture all that for their project.And so now I'm able to utilize all that experience and give that experience. To any surfer on any level and their friends or [00:56:00] family. And it's incredibly gratifying for me because if I get Kelly Slater's best video clip of the year, he doesn't really care. Quicksilver doesn't really care. They're like, oh, great.Good job. You know, they expect it. But if I get the average surfer's best clip of his life, the look on his face, and it, it is just so gratifying for me. And it's the true essence of being able to give back after a lifetime of being blessed with this incredible lifestyle of traveling the entire planet at all the best waves in the world with all the best surfers and.To now continue to utilize that skillset for everyday surfers is incredible. [00:57:00] Michael Frampton: Oh, very cool. Very cool. And gosh, just the whole, just the experience of knowing when and where to surf from home, whatever home base you've chosen, that's worth, I mean, that's just invaluable for any, any surf trip I've ever been on.The better, the better and more experienced. The, the guide, the surf guiding where, where we're going today, what time we're surfing due to the tides and the swell. I mean that makes or breaks a trip really. And then plus it's all on film and you can get coaching if you want. I mean, that sounds amazing. And where people that wanna find out more in book, where do they go?Tony Roberts: TR surf trips.com. So it's my initials, Tony. Michael Frampton: Okay, great. I'll make sure there's links to that in the show notes. And you also have a YouTube channel. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Tony Roberts: Yes. I have two YouTube channels, real [00:58:00] surf stories and real skate stories. And these are a way to cement legacies of the greats of our sports surfing and skateboarding.Thatgives an opportunity to do a deep dive into their surfing life and what has made them great and using what they've accomplished to inspire us because each surfer has led these incredible lives that have inspired us in so many ways, and sometimes I. You'll hear the person's name, but you don't really know much about that person.And so I'm always looking for those surfers and those stories that really give you a, a better [00:59:00] perspective of them. And also, as I said, to celebrate their legacy so they don't slide through the cracks. Like one example is I'd heard about this guy, Butch van Dale, and I even knew that he was known as Mr.Pipeline, but I realized I didn't know much about this guy. So I started doing some research and holy crap, what an incredible person and story and character. And I mean for anyone who ever knew that guy, he was the most larger than life figure they'd ever met and ever knew. Yet here we are. Decades later and barely even know who the guy is.So to be able to do a story on that guy and then having his family reach out to me [01:00:00] and so graciously say, wow, thank you so much. Like, this is so important to us that that people know Butch's story. And I just did one with a PT where I was able to sit down with him and wrap out for like three hours. Michael Frampton: Oh wow.Tony Roberts: And the amount of influence and impact that he's had in so many different aspects of surfing. People don't realize that they know PT for one thing or another, but if you put the entire package together, PTs, in my opinion, the most influential impact surfer in the history of our sport. Yeah, the Duke is more impactful in in getting it started.Kelly Slater's more impactful in competition. You have these other people that are more impactful in certain categories, but the amount of categories [01:01:00] and the amount of impact that PT had in all those categories. So my YouTube channel celebrates all these incredible stories and again, gives me an opportunity to utilize a lifetime of filmmaking 'cause that has been my career my entire life.I was director of video at O'Neill. I made the O'Neill Ozone in 1988. In my filmmaking career, I was the first person to use hip hop and rap music, and skate videos and surf videos. I invented the follow footage angle and street skateboarding. I invented the skate style water shot angle, and surfing. So my entire career has been, I.Trying to do something that's never been done before doing it and moving on to the next thing. And now I'm able to utilize all that in my own channel, which is like me having my own movie theater, my own TV station. [01:02:00] I've been a musician my whole life, a dj. I make beats, I make music, I rap, I sing. Now it's like I have my own radio station.I absolutely love the technology more than anything, you know, and it's, it's far reaching and, and every direction worldwide. So it's incredibly inspiring and gratifying. Michael Frampton: Wow. Yeah. , Gosh. Okay, listener. Well, if you're inspired to. Go on a surf trip with Tony and, , have some of this rub off and surf some great waves.Get some great footage. Then you can go to tr surf trips and there'll be a link to that in the show notes. And if you wanna learn and explore Tony's, , YouTube channels, there'll be links to those in the show notes as well. Those who wanna learn more about Tony's, , backstory in history, which he just touched on a few points there.I will put a [01:03:00] link to the interview that David Lee Scales did with you, , back in 2014 in the show notes as well. , Tony Roberts, thank you so much for your time., You are an inspiration, especially to us, , older surfers and what's possible in surfing, longevity and performance. So thank you so much for your time.I really appreciate it. Tony Roberts: Thank you so much, Michael. Absolute pleasure.

119: One Wave Is Enough

Do you walk away from surf sessions frustrated—even when the waves were decent?In this episode, we dive into a powerful mindset shift that helps surfers of all levels enjoy every session—no matter the conditions. Whether you're chasing the dream swell or just trying to improve, managing your expectations could be the key to unlocking more joy and better performance in the water.Learn how unmet expectations quietly sabotage your surfing experienceDiscover the surprising benefits of aiming for "just one wave"Hear real-world examples of how this mindset frees surfers and boosts performanceHit play now to learn how a small mindset shift can help you catch more waves, feel more stoke, and surf with more ease.Key PointsIntroduction of the podcast discussing the importance of managing expectations in surfing.Discussion on the emotional impact of unmet expectations when surfing, emphasizing the role of expectations in creating disappointment or elation.Suggestion to lower expectations, particularly around surf conditions, and adopt a mindset of aiming to catch just one wave as a strategy to enhance enjoyment and reduce frustration.Personal anecdote illustrating the effectiveness of managing expectations by aiming to catch just one wave, even in challenging conditions.Observation that setting low expectations, such as catching one wave, leads to greater enjoyment and improved performance in surfing.Encouragement for listeners to try setting their expectation to catch just one wave during their next surf session to experience the benefits of managing expectations. OutlineManaging Expectations in SurfingMichael Frampton, the host of the Surf Mastery Podcast, discusses the importance of managing expectations in surfing.Michael shares personal experiences of arriving at the beach with high expectations based on forecasts, only to find the conditions different than expected.The emotional swings experienced by surfers are often due to unmet expectations rather than the surf conditions themselves.Michael suggests setting low expectations, such as aiming to catch just one wave, to enhance the surfing experience.By lowering expectations, surfers can focus more on the enjoyment of being in the ocean rather than the number of waves caught.Michael recounts a recent surf where, despite challenging conditions, catching just one wave made the experience rewarding.Michael has shared this 'one wave' approach with clients, who have reported increased enjoyment and improved performance in the water.The approach encourages surfers to appreciate the waves they catch more, regardless of the conditions.Michael challenges listeners to try setting their expectation to catch just one wave on their next surf.For those interested in exploring this philosophy further, Michael recommends visiting surfmastery.com to download the e-book, The Philosophy of Surfing.Transcription:Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The show that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, building wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is all about managing expectations in surfing. Now, we've all had the experience of turning up to the beach and expecting it to be four foot and offshore because that's what the forecast promised. But then when we arrive, it's two foot and onshore. That familiar feeling of disappointment sets in. And of course, the opposite is true. The forecast says it's going to be two foot and onshore, but we decide to go for a surf anyway. And when we get there, it's four foot and clean, and suddenly... you are elated. Now, these emotional swings aren't actually caused by the surf itself. It's caused by your expectations.So it actually makes sense to lower your expectations, especially around conditions. For example, if your expectation is that it's surfable, that's a pretty low bar. Combine that with the mindset of "I'm going to catch one wave," and you've set a low bar that's actually empowering and realistic. Most frustration, anger, and disappointment in the surf comes from these unmet expectations. If you expect to catch ten waves but only get three, you will likely walk away frustrated. Because what happens then is, instead of you focusing on the enjoyment of the experience of being in the ocean and riding three waves, you chose to focus on the seven waves that you didn't get.And lately, I've been practicing this idea. And when I paddle out, my goal is to catch one wave, no matter what the surf is like. A couple of weeks ago, I drove out to the beach for a surf and the only expectation I had was that it was going to be surfable. Had boards in the car ready for any type of condition, as always. And then, when I turned up, it looked like it was pumping. It was well overhead. There were heaps of waves coming through. There were plenty of surfers out, but there were plenty of waves as well.And I sort of felt like I should higher my expectations. But I managed them in the moment and I thought, no, I'm just going to suit up, paddle out, and catch one wave. Go from there. And then, as I was suiting up, I was watching the surf, and I sort of realized, man, people aren't really catching these waves. There's a lot of paddling for waves happening, but no one was really catching them. I wasn't quite sure why when I was suiting up. But when I got out, when I managed to paddle out the back, I realized, man, it's actually really hard to catch these waves. There was a lot of water moving. There was a lot of backwash and secondary swells.So it was really tricky to get into these waves. And most of the surfers out there were pretty frustrated with it. Because I suspect they had seen the surf look like it was pumping, and they paddled out with all these expectations of catching some of these waves. And not many people were. And the ones that were catching were just really bumpy and there wasn't much good quality surfing going on. It took me forty minutes to catch one wave, but that one wave made my day. That's because I'd kept my expectations low.I've been sharing these thoughts with clients recently as well. And a few clients have adopted this "just one wave" approach, and it's taken the pressure off their surfing. They're enjoying surfing more, feeling freer in the water. Ironically, they're actually surfing better as a result. It tends to be what happens. Because, when the example I gave—when the waves, they look good but they aren't, which happens a lot—and it takes you ages to even get one, where you've met your expectation, you actually appreciate that one wave a lot more. But if I had paddled out there and caught that one wave in the first five minutes, then I got another, another thirty-five minutes of time up my sleeve. And if you end up catching two, that's double your expectations. And of course, I've had surfs recently where I've paddled out expecting to catch one and caught twenty. Just makes you enjoy surfing so much more.So, listener, here's the challenge. Next time you go surfing, set your expectation to just catching one wave. Try it. Feel it out. See what happens. If you enjoyed this philosophical approach to surfing and you want to go deeper, head over to surfmastery.com and grab a copy of the e-book The Philosophy of Surfing. It's available now for about the price of a cup of coffee. The link is in the show notes. And as always, thanks for listening. Keep surfing. 119 One Wave Is Enough: The Surfer’s Guide to Managing ExpectationsFor the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.