GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast

We Need a Care Revolution: Victor Montori

In his book, “Why We Revolt,” Victor Montori decries the industrialization of healthcare.  We’ve become a healthcare factory, beholden to health systems motivated by profit. In particular, he laments the loss of the “care” aspect of healthcare. Clinicians are under the clock to churn through patients.  Patients are tasked with doing work outside of the clinic. Patients are tasked with hours and hours of work to self manage, obtain and manage medications, track weights and fingersticks, not to mention scheduling visits and waiting around for the visit to start. Now we have an app for that. For what, you ask? Well, for everything! Digital burden is real. Think about what we ask patients to do: charge your device, remember your password, 2 factor authentication, each interface is different, wait…where do you enter your fingersticks again? Victor is an endocrinologist who often provides care for older patients with multiple chronic conditions, polypharmacy, and complex social situations.  He’s “one of us.” Some might argue that these circumstances call for incremental change.  Not Victor.  He argues that we need a revolution. In particular, he argues that the revolution must come from patients to be successful. On this podcast we discuss: Why do we need a revolution? What made him get to this point of arguing for a revolt? Why should the revolution be patient led, rather than clinician led? What role do clinicians have to play? What is minimally disruptive medicine (a term Victor coined with Carl May and Francis Mair in 2009)? How does shared decision making fit into the revolution? What’s the matter with guidelines? What’s the role of standardization? We suspect that most geriatrics and palliative care providers feel like they’ve escaped many of the issues Victor describes, trading less glamorous and remunerative work for more satisfying time spent caring for patients; focusing on what matters, goals of care, and attention to emotion and social well-being.  Are we deluding ourselves? If you’d like to join the revolution, please check out Victor’s website, patientrevolution.org And I believe this is the first Peter Gabriel song request! I think Peter Gabriel’s album So was the first cassette tape I purchased.  About time, 350+ podcasts in.  My son Kai turns this very non-guitar friendly song into an acoustic jam for the audio-only podcast version; you get my weaker attempt on YouTube :)  Finally, a quick plug for the Sommer Lecture series in Portland OR.  Victor and I had a terrific time bonding at this year’s lecture series. While not strictly geriatrics and palliative care focused, the lectures seem targeted at a broad audience, with something for everyone.  And yes, I made them sing parody songs :) -Alex Smith  

System Wide Goals of Care Implementation: A Podcast with Ira Byock, Chris Dale, and Matt Gonzales

Most health care providers understand the importance of goals-of-care conversations in aligning treatment plans with patients’ goals, especially for those with serious medical problems. And yet, these discussions often either don't happen or at least don't get documented. How can we do better? In today’s podcast, we sit down with Ira Byock, Chris Dale, and Matthew Gonzales to discuss a multi-year healthcare system-wide goals of care implementation project within the Providence Health Care System. Spanning 51 hospitals, this initiative was recently described in NEJM Catalyst, showing truly impressive results, including an increase from 7% to 85% in goals of care conversation documentation for patients who were in an ICU for 5 or more days. How did they achieve this?  Our guests will share insights into the project’s inception and the strategies that drove its success, including: Organizational Alignment: Integrating GOC documentation into the health system’s mission, vision, and strategic objectives. Clinical Leadership Partnership: Collaborating with clinical leaders to establish robust quality standards and metrics. Ease of Documentation: Upgrading the electronic health record (EHR) system to streamline the documentation and retrieval of GOC conversations. Communication Training: Conducting workshops based on the Serious Illness Conversation Guide to equip clinicians with the skills needed for impactful GOC conversations. Join us as we explore how these strategies were implemented and learn how you can apply similar approaches in your own healthcare setting.  

Death Anxiety: Dani Chammas & Keri Brenner

What is death anxiety?  We spend the first 15 minutes of the podcast addressing this question.  And maybe this was unfair to our guests, the fabulous dynamic duo of palliative psychiatrists Dani Chammas and Keri Brenner (listen to their prior podcasts on therapeutic presence and the angry patient).  After all, we invited them on to our podcast to discuss death anxiety, then Eric and I immediately questioned if death anxiety was the best term for what we want to discuss! Several key points stood out to me from this podcast, your key points may differ: The “anxiety” in “death anxiety” is not a pathological phenomenon or a DSM diagnosis;  it references an existential concern that is fundamental to the human experience .  To me,” awareness of mortality” might be a better term, but in fairness, the idea of “death anxiety” was coined well before the formal establishment of “anxiety disorders.” The ways in which death anxiety manifests in our patient’s choices and behaviors varies tremendously, and our responses as clinicians must be individualized. There is no “one size fits all” approach. In one example Dani discusses, a pain level of 1.5/10 might be overwhelming, because for a patient  in remission from cancer any pain might signal return of cancer.  Some manifestations of death anxiety can be debilitating, others lead to tremendous personal growth, connection to others, and a drive toward finding meaning in their illness experience.   Death anxiety impacts us as clinicians, not only through countertransference, that word that I still can’t define (sorry Dani and Keri!), but also through our own unexamined fears about death. As clinicians who regularly care for people who are dying, we might find ourselves becoming “used to” death. Is this a sign that we are inured to the banality of death, and less able to empathize with the death anxiety experienced by our patients or their families? Or could it reflect our acceptance of the finitude of life, prompting us to live in the present moment? Perhaps it is something else entirely. The key is that looking inwards to understanding our own unique relationship with mortality can deepen our ability to authentically accompany the experiences of our patients. I mean, don’t fear the reaper, right?  Sorry, no cowbell in my version, but you do get my son Kai, home from college, on guitar for the audio only podcast version. Here are some resources for listeners wanting to learn more about this topic: Books: Yalom ID. Existential Psychotherapy. New York, NY: Basic Books; 1980. Yalom ID. Staring at the Sun: Overcoming the Terror of Death. San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass; 2008. Solomon S, Greenberg J, Pyszczynski T. The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. New York, NY: Random House; 2015. Becker E. The Denial of Death. Free Press; 1973. Articles: Emanuel LL, Solomon S, Chochinov HM, et al. Death Anxiety and Correlates in Cancer Patients Receiving Palliative Care. J Palliat Med. 2023;26(2):235-243. Chochinov HM, McClement SE, Hack TF, et al. Death anxiety and correlates in cancer patients receiving outpatient palliative care. J Palliat Med. 2023;26(12):1404–1410. doi:10.1089/jpm.2022.0052. Clark D. Between hope and acceptance: the medicalisation of dying. BMJ. 2002;324(7342):905–907. doi:10.1136/bmj.324.7342.905. Vess M, Arndt J, Cox CR, Routledge C, Goldenberg JL. The terror management of medical decisions: The effect of mortality salience and religious fundamentalism on support for faith-based medical intervention. J Pers Soc Psychol. 2009;97(2):334–350. Menzies RE, Zuccala M, Sharpe L, Dar-Nimrod I. The effects of psychosocial interventions on death anxiety: A meta-analysis and systematic review of randomized controlled trials. J Anxiety Disord. 2018;59:64–73. doi:10.1016/j.janxdis.2018.09.00 Brown TL, Chown P, Solomon S, Gore G, De Groot JM. Psychosocial correlates of death anxiety in advanced cancer: A scoping review. Psychooncology. 2025;34(1):45–56. doi:10.1002/pon.70068. Tarbi EC, Moore CM, Wallace CL, Beaussant Y, Broden EG, Chammas D, Galchutt P, Gilchrist D, Hayden A, Morgan B, Rosenberg LB, Sager Z, Solomon S, Rosa WE, Chochinov HM. Top Ten Tips Palliative Care Clinicians Should Know About Attending to the Existential Experience. J Palliat Med. 2024 Oct;27(10):1379-1389. doi: 10.1089/jpm.2024.0070. Epub 2024 Mar 28. PMID: 38546453.  

Individualizing Blood Pressure Goals in Older Adults: A Podcast with Mitra Jamshidian, Simon Ascher and Mark Supiano

What’s the ideal blood pressure target for older adults with hypertension? Should we aim for a systolic BP of 120 mmHg in all older adults, as suggested by the SPRINT trial? Or should we be more flexible—especially for those who are frail or among the oldest old? This week on the GeriPal Podcast, we explore the nuances of managing blood pressure in older adults with our guests Dr. Mark Supiano, Dr. Mitra Jamshidian, and Dr. Simon Ascher.  Now, some of our astute GeriPal listeners may say, “wait, didn't you already talk about this with Mark Supiano in a 2017 podcast titled How Low Should We Go with Blood Pressure in Older Adults?”  Yes, we sure did, but we decided to revisit this topic as Mitra Jamshidian and Simon Ascher published a new JAGS research study focused on developing a framework to individualize the net benefit of intensive blood pressure control based on the results of the SPRINT trial.  Their key finding: most community-dwelling older adults in the SPRINT trial experienced greater benefits than harms from more aggressive blood pressure targets—even those who were older, frail, or on multiple medications. Join us for an in-depth discussion on balancing risks, benefits, and patient preferences in hypertension management for older adults. Plus, we might just sneak in a little Frank Sinatra for good measure.

Should Palliative Care be in the Survivorship Business? A Podcast with Laura Petrillo, Laura Shoemaker

In this week’s episode, we dig into two deceptively simple questions: When does someone become a cancer survivor, and should palliative care be in the business of caring for them? Spoiler: It’s more complicated than it seems. We’ve invited two palliative care doctors to talk about survivorship with us: Laura Petrillo, a physician-researcher at Mass General Hospital and Harvard Medical School, and Laura Shoemaker, an outpatient palliative care doctor at the Cleveland Clinic. This episode is a must-listen for those navigating the evolving landscape of cancer care, and asking not just how we treat cancer, but how we support people who are living with it.  If you want some further reading on survivorship, check out some of these articles: A NEJM article titled “Time to Study Metastatic-Cancer Survivorship” A ASCO publication that includes a section on survivorship - Patient-Centered Palliative Care for Patients With Advanced Lung Cancer A webinar on survivorship - Blending Survivorship and Palliative Care (NCI)