The Copywriter Club Podcast

TCC Podcast #459: How to Sell Strategy with Kristen Vanderhoek

Clients need strategy. But they don’t always know that’s what they need. So how do you sell it to them? How do you ensure your work is strategic even if all your client wants is a few emails? My guest for the 459th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter Kristen Vanderhoek who specializes in strategy. She spills the secrets for selling strategy to your prospects on this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: CursorAndInk.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Is strategy a big part of your copywriting business? If it isn’t now, it probably should be. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Every client needs a strategy. But they don’t always see it that way. They just want the emails or the web site or the launch plan. But it’s the strategy that ensures that the deliverables go to the right person, include the right message, have the right call to action—all at the right time. Clients want the deliverables and the benefits of the strategy, but they don’t always connect the two. So it becomes your job as the copywriter or content strategist to connect the dots for them, to show how strategy leads to better copy and content. On this episode of the podcast, my guest is Kristen Vanderhoek, a copywriter who focuses on brand strategy. We talked about how to approach strategy projects—Kristen shared exactly how she does it. And we talked about how you sell strategy to clients who usually just want to deliverable. We also talked about Kristen’s HOME framework, the step-by-step process she follows when working with clients to ensure they get well-thought out, strategic copy and design. Finally, one of Kristen’s differentiators is her white-glove service. She takes steps to make working with her feel like a high-end experience and makes sure her clients aren’t left wondering what’s going on, or feeling like they overpaid because the presentation at the end of the project isn’t just a file hand-off. If you’re a copywriter who is ready to level up the projects you work on and the way you deliver that work to your clients, you’ll want to listen to this interview. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Vanderhoek… Transcript coming….

TCC Podcast #458: Write Your Book with Lacy Lieffers

Want to write a book? Me too. But for some reason, I just can’t get it finished. Or started. I’m stuck. So I asked author and book marketing expert, Lacy Lieffers to join me for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to share her thoughts on writing books, the mindset needed to power through the process, why books are powerful business tools and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: BlackFoxMarketing Lacy’s Instagram The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Thinking about writing a book? Yeah me too. For a couple of years now. So let’s talk about how to actually get it done. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you’ve been listening to this podcast for more than a year or two, you’ve probably heard me talk about wanting to write another book. It’s been a goal of mine for a couple of years even though I haven’t made a lot of progress on it lately. And you’ve probably heard at least one guest talk about the book writing process… guest like Laura Gale, Jennie Nash, Stephanie Chandler, Mary Adkins, Ryan Guthrie and Allison Fallon have all shared their approaches, their secrets for finding time and organizing thoughts for a book, and their frameworks for putting together a best-seller or at least a book that appeals to their readers. It’s been a few months, but we’ve covered this ground before. So why talk about it again? Because if you’re anything like me, it’s less about learning the latest secret for writing a book and more about reminding yourself that this is still a goal, and now is as good a time as ever to get it done. So if you have a goal to write a book, or like me want to write another book—one that better reflects the work that you’re doing right now, or even a novel that will connect with readers today… this episode is for you. My guest today is author and book marketer, Lacy Lieffers. Lacy runs a community for authors and she helps writers at all stages of the book writing process from organizing ideas to creating a game plan to make your book a best seller. She knows her stuff, so I was more than a little interested to see if what she has to share will light that fire under my backside and get my book moving again. We talked about pen names, picking the right book topic for you, how to figure out if your book idea will work, book marketing, and a lot more. If you want to write a book, or you’re stuck in the middle of your book, or you don’t know where to start, this episode is for you. And for me.  Before we get to my interview with Lacy, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Lacy Lieffers… Thanks to Lacy Lieffers for helping me reset my goal and efforts to finally get to writing my next book. I’ve written a book before, and I’ve got to admit that while I think it’s a good book, by the time I finished writing it, I was no longer in love with the topic or the book itself. And at least in the case of that book, it’s on a topic or niche that I don’t do a lot of work in any more. So it’s definitely time for a book that’s more relevant to my business today.  If you want to connect with Lacy or use some of the tools she has created for authors to write and market their books, connect with her on Instagram where she’s got a long list of links to resources for authors. You can also find her at blackfoxmarketing.ca  During our discussion we talked about the “speak your book” formula for writing a book. I want to be clear that I’m not saying that that process can’t work. But as Lacy points out, we tend to speak differently than we write. And we listen differently than we read. So you CAN speak your book, but you’ll want to put in a lot of work to make sure it actually reads like a book and not like a transcript which can be hard to follow. If this is the only way you’ll get your book out of your head and down on paper, go for it.  And while having a book for it’s own sake may be worth the effort, a book opens all kinds of doors for you and your business that other marketing materials simply can’t. Even a podcast which can be a great way to get your voice and thoughts into the world, it doesn’t have the permanence of a book. There’s a reason why author and authority are basically the same word. When it comes to building trust, getting the attention of your ideal clients, and even booking yourself onto podcasts or events… having a good book makes all the difference. If you want to write a book, drop me an email and let me know. I’d love to hear your process for getting it done. It might help inspire me to get mine done too. Finally, a quick reminder that if you want your copy reviewed by someone who can give you expert advice on how to make it better, jump into The Copywriter Underground now and let me see your latest project. You can learn more about the Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2.

TCC Podcast #457: Writing in the Wellness Niche with Kristen Driscoll

What does it take to write in the health and wellness niche? I asked copywriter Kristen Driscoll about that on this 457th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The wellness niche is booming and now is the time for good copywriters to jump in. Want to know why? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Kristen’s LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Writing for the health and wellness industry takes a special set of skills. And that’s what we talking about today on The Copywriter Club Podcast. One of the questions I get asked the most as a copywriting coach is which niche pays the most. I’m on the record as a big proponent of niching… our own research which you’ll find published on our blog shows that copywriters who write in a single niche make almost two times more than copywriters without a niche. And copywriters who are focused on 2-3 niches make 30% more than writers without a niche. But not all niches are equal. Some niches pay more than others… the financial niche is one of those and we’ve published several episodes in the past talking about that niche… look for our interviews with Clayton Makepeace, Kyle Milligan, Jake Hoffberg and Ridge Abraham. Most of those episode are a few years old. Partly because of its reputation as a profitable niche, it’s hard to break into work with the high-paying financial publishers. Another niche that is generally thought of as high-paying is the health and wellness niche, especially writers who work with supplement makers, fat loss products and medtech. So what do you need to know to break into this lucrative niche? I asked Kristen Driscoll, a health copywriter, to talk a bit about how she broke in and the work that she does. It’s a roadmap for your own path to success with wellness clients if you choose to follow it. We talked about how Kristen found her first client in the niche, why she chose health as the industry she wanted to work in, and why wellness is a such a massive opportunity for writers today. I think you’ll like this discussion that Kristen and I had so stick around. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Driscoll… Rob Marsh: Thanks to Kristen Driscoll for sharing her thoughts about writing in the health and wellness niche. I’ve linked to Kristen’s linkedin in the show notes in case you want to connect with her. Early on we mentioned that changing demographics, the aging of the world’s population, and growing awareness of wellness trends is creating all kinds of new opportunities in the health and wellness industry. It’s a niche that is growing in spite of the up and down economy and will continue to grow for the next decade or two. There are plenty of clients who need copywriters and more entering the industry all the time. I want to mention again that if you want your copy reviewed by someone who can give you expert advice on how to make it better, jump into The Copywriter Underground now and let me see your latest project. You can learn more about the Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2.

TCC Podcast #456: Fix Your Mindset with Brian McCarthy

If you’ve been doing all the things, listening to the advice of the experts, and you’re still not seeing results, maybe the thing holding you back is your mindset. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m speaking with former copywriter and current mindset coach, Brian McCarthy. We talked about burnout, imposter complex, confidence and much more. If you’re doing “all the things” and still not reaching your goals, this episode is for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Emily Reagan’s Interview Tanya Geisler’s Interview (Imposter Complex) Brian’s Website Imposter Complex eBook The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground The How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass Transcript: Rob Marsh: Maybe the thing keeping you from getting what you want and working with the clients you deserve is you. Want to know more? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Content writers, copywriters, social media writers, and marketers of all kinds face a bunch of challenges when it comes to building a successful business that supports the lifestyle that we all want.  We talk about finding clients on the podcast a lot… maybe too much because there are other challenges… figuring out our niches, creating irresistable products and services that clients want to buy, pricing, positioning, marketing, and of course writing and so on. All of those business skills are important. If you can’t do them yourself or if you can’t hire someone else to do these for you, you’ll struggle as a business owner. But there is a whole other set of skills that we often overlook that also impact your ability to grow your business. We generally think of these hidden skills as mindset. And that’s what we’re talking about on today’s podcast. My guest is former copywriter and current mindset coach Brian McCarthy. Brian works with copywriters and others to help them work through mindset blocks and develop new skills to overcome them. Things like growing confidence, finding clarity and alignment, over coming imposter complex and a lot more. If you’ve been doing everything right but still struggle to get traction or feel like you’re making a difference in the world… or even just for your clients, maybe refocusing your efforts on mindset is what’s called for. So keep listening for our thoughts on these critical, but often ignored, mindset skills. Before we jump into our interview, a little while ago I recorded a masterclass to show copywriters, content writers and other marketers how to write “emotional” copy. Everyone says emotions sell, but how do you actually write emotional copy? I walk through more than a dozen examples in this masterclass and give you a proven process for figuring out the right emotions to focus on as you write… and how they change as you make your pitch. The masterclass includes several bonuses on storytelling, using A.I. to find dominant and transformational emotions, and much more. You can get this masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion And now, my interview with Brian McCarthy. Brian, welcome to the podcast. I’m thrilled to have you here, like we were saying, just as we were chatting before we started recording, we met briefly a bunch of years ago, you were doing something slightly different than what you did today. Yeah, tell me just how did you get here. You’re a mindset coach, but you also have a pretty big background in copywriting. So tell me about that? Brian McCarthy: Yeah, so I started copywriting, I don’t know 20, 2014 or so got into that world, and I was always copywriting for a lot of personal growth companies and coaches. I was just very into the personal growth world. And then eventually, like, found my I was doing launches, I was doing case studies, those became like my my main even wrote a book on how to do case studies like that kind of became my main focus. And then I was when the pandemic hit. One of my clients was this big life coach, Ronnie Britton, she’s amazing, and she has a coach. She has a program teaching people how to coach. And then I was like, that seems like a useful skill. I’ll do it. And then took the program, and as I started coaching people, I was like, Oh, this is the greatest thing in the world. And eventually moved from copywriting into coaching full time. And it was one of those, like, oh yeah, no. Like, I was always feeling that nudge to be in the personal growth world, like, yeah, no, wonder. And even during my copywriting career, it always felt like this is a stepping stone to something else. I just didn’t know what that something else was. Then once I found coaching, I was like, oh, it’s it’s that, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So before we jump into all the stuff you’re doing as coaching, I’d love to dive into your copy career just a little bit, because six, six years as a copywriter is nothing to sniff at, you know, writing a book about case studies. So let’s talk about that. How did you get started as a copywriter, and how did you really find those first couple of clients? I got started. I was just listening to podcasts while working at a corporate desk job that was slowly destroying my soul. And I was like, Oh, this sounds kind of nice, yeah, just, you know, travel and write and be on a beach and fire off a letter, and you make a bunch of money and everyone loves you. That sounds like a pretty good career. And then so I ended up, like, getting a severance from that job, say, like, merged and, and I was like, I’m just gonna try this Copyright thing, and spent the first year and a half just fighting for jobs on jobs boards being making little to no money, literally, like, I’d calculate my hourly rate, and I’m like, I made pennies on this ebook per hour. Like, so just slogging it out that was tough. And then eventually things started to stabilize. I got a job with Ramit Sethi, I Will Teach You To Be Rich.  I was a senior copywriter with them for about a year, and then left that after a year, and then started to do the freelance thing, and got ended up with, like, feast or famine kind of thing. Like, it was actually going pretty well, but it was really unstable. Like, I finally did that, like, all right, making six figures, traveling the world a bit. It wasn’t, wasn’t all that easy to get to that point, but I got there and then got a couple steady retainer clients eventually after that, where I had like two clients, was making good money working, you know, three or four hours a day and able to travel. So that was kind of like my initial goal of what I wanted, what I wanted to hit as a copywriter. And I was like, oh, hit that. And then, of course, had, and again, it was like for personal growth companies, this parenting company that’s wonderful.  So I was very fortunate. I’ve always loved my clients and been able to write for just wonderful people and great programs. Again, doing a lot of launches, case studies, some email marketing stuff. I always liked the longer form sales page and the more in depth, bigger projects, the you know, Hey, can I hire you for four emails? I’m like, What are you talking about? I have to learn so much to write four emails. I can write you like a 40 page letter. That was always more what drew me Rob Marsh: Me too. I’m the same way. I love writing emails, but sales, sales. Email sells copies where I live. Okay, so you’ve got this interesting skill set that you’ve developed since then, but I wonder, you know if you were coaching Brian McCarthy, copywriter just starting out making pennies per project, what mindset skills would you teach him, or would you basically walk him through in order to help him deal with that struggle or make progress faster for beginning copywriters, I guess the question is, what are the mindset things that we need to be focused on in order to make progress? Brian McCarthy: Yeah, great question. A couple things jump out based on a lot of the copywriters that I coach, and especially the ones that are just starting out. There’s one big piece is alignment of finding what actually inspires you and excites you. It’s really easy, and it’s copywriting world and online marketing world to get to seduced by like, Well, the big name person says that this is the best route to go. So now I’m gonna start us build a social media presence. Do you like social like? Do you like Instagram? Do you like social media? No, but it’s the it says. They say it’s the best way. So now I’m going to do that. I’m like, no, no, let’s find what actually works for you. So maybe that’s Instagram and social media, but maybe feeling more inclined to something else, whether that’s the method for growing your business, or the type of copywriting you want to do, or the type of companies you want to do, one is just getting like, the noise and all the stuff out there can be helpful and has its place. But first, let’s start with what’s really inspiring and aligned for you. Then the next piece. So that would be the first like clarity piece, and then the next piece would be the confidence piece of like, okay, how can let’s build up your confidence in a way that’s authentic, where you can own, even if you’re just starting out, you can still own the various skills and values and what you bring to the table beyond because a lot of people get stuck in, like, what I I don’t have the copywriting experience, and that’s all that matters. And it’s just the skills. It’s like, yeah, that’s yeah, that’s all important. And other things matter too. Are like, your ability to take feedback is super important. Your ability to communicate well, to hit deadlines. There’s all these other things, your passion for the work, your ability to listen and like find what the actual like thing worth talking about, even is there’s all these other things that people don’t they lose sight of the importance of it, and because they just focus on what they don’t have versus the pieces they do. So the next part, after the clarity would be the confidence in like, well, what are you bringing to the table and sharing that in a way where you’re not you know, trying to a lot of copywriters think they need to come in and kick the doors down and proclaim that they’re God’s gift to copywriting and gonna make you $10 million overnight. Like, no, don’t do that. Come from an honest, authentic place where you’re owning. Your value and what you bring to the table in a way that feels aligned, and they can see the value, but it’s not this big, you know, puffing out your chest nonsense like, because clients see and feel that, and they’re pretty sick of that too. They don’t want it. And then the last piece would be, the other mindset. Pieces outside of clarity, then confidence would then be like building more consistency. So a lot of what gets in the way that procrastination, self doubt, which is related to the confidence piece, and or again, lack of clarity of how I want to grow my business, like getting consistent with putting yourself out there, developing the habits, that’s another big piece, and that’s a lot easier too, once you have the clarity and confidence pieces in place. Rob Marsh: So as far, I’d love to break this down just a little bit more to understand each set. So starting with alignment, if this is a really difficult thing, obviously I’ve coached hundreds and hundreds copywriters as well. This is one of the starting pieces where you’re really trying to figure out your positioning, the product or service that you’re offering, the value you’re creating, the problem you’re solving, all of that stuff. And it takes, it takes time. I mean, there’s a reason why a lot of beginning copywriters don’t make a lot of money in that first year. It’s because, at least it feels to me like we’re bouncing from thing to thing trying to figure this stuff out. So how do we how do we shorten that process and make it a little bit easier? Because oftentimes a copywriter comes into it, yeah, we might have some background experience. You know, I I was a bartender, or I was a school teacher, I was a nurse and and we can bring that to the table, but sometimes we’re trying to get away from that stuff too, and we’re looking for something that rings a bell for us or really turns us on, but we don’t know what that is yet. Brian McCarthy: And it definitely is an exploration piece. One thing that immediately comes to mind, and this came from a coach I work with a lot, Kavita Singh, so it’s something that she helped me with and and that’s looking at the difference between, like, what you can do versus what you’re meant to do. And it’s like, okay, can I do this thing? Yes, I have these skills in this background, and that’s a needed thing, versus, yeah, more of that internal radar of what excites you and what gets you going. And there is, there is sometimes gonna just be that process of, like, trying things out and getting feedback and, like, there is a okay, like, figure it out as you go. It’s not necessarily like you’re in the garage and get it all fixed up, and then you go, it’s, it’s, it is more of a guess and check thing. So even I mean, that would be my biggest thing is, one is just really focusing on that internal radar and homing in on that and what you’re meant to do outside of like what looks best, or what you should do, or what’s smartest, like, you can still look at that, but make sure you’re not doing it at the expense of that inner peace or that piece inside you. And and the other part is even just honoring the the idea that it might take a little bit like it’s worth doing right, rather than rushing through to get the first thing. And again, this is an industry that very much values speed and instant transformation and all that kind of thing. And it’s an industry that, what do, you know, also has a lot of burnout, also has businesses that don’t exist in five years, you know, because it was more about like, well, this works. Let’s do more of that. And then people build businesses and go, like, I don’t even care about what I’m doing right now. I don’t care about these people. Like, I got sucked in the thing, because it’s what paid the bills, and people said yes to it. And now I’m doing group coaching calls that I hate to a bunch of people that I don’t even want to help. Like, that kind of thing happens in my mind, because a lot of that internal piece and like, what are you really meant to do? What really inspires you? What are the big problems that you know a lot of times that, like you faced in your life, that you want to help people with that kind of thing gets might get cut over or, like, jump through, that piece gets missed a little bit. Rob Marsh: This feels like where the typical advice about finding a niche sometimes goes wrong. And I’ll be upfront, I’m all about finding a niche and working in a niche. I think the data is there in salary surveys that we’ve done that show that somebody working in niche makes significantly more money than somebody who’s a generalist. So obviously choosing a niche is good for your long term copywriting or whatever it is, service business that you’re running. However, sometimes it takes a while to find the niche. You know, as an example, you might become a copywriter thinking, hey, I’m I could write sales copy. I’ve done maybe door to door sales at one point when I was in college, or I sold shoes at Nordstrom, or whatever the thing is. And so I’m going to. Write, you know, sales emails or sales letters, and then as you get into it, you discover this entire world of Salesforce and sales enablement tools and all the things that happen in the background that you could fall in love with. You may not have even known that that stuff exists until you get into the process. And so again, while I’m really big on choosing a niche. I’m also really big on taking time to figure out what it is that you’re interested in, to explore that stuff, to learn the new things, so you can even discover and open yourself up to whatever it is, like you said, that you’re going to be aligned with. Brian McCarthy: Totally, yeah, it’s like, it’s like, how can you be expected to make the decision of the direction to go. If you don’t have, if you’re of a very limited information like you explore these things exactly like you said, then you have more information to work with, and you can make a more informed decision of what direction you want to go. And also, nothing’s forever, right? I mean, you were talking about building a business, and three, four years down the road, you find out that this isn’t something that lights you up anymore, so you can always change that as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, we’re always evolving. So it’s very likely that it’s gonna evolve whether, whether you expect it to, or wanted to, or not. Like, yeah, you almost, you almost can’t help it. So yeah, a lot of that fear of like, oh, but if I pick a niche, I’m like, I’m in a prison forever. It’s like, No, you like you, literally like you’re going to keep changing. So as long as your business is a reflection of you, then it’s going to be changing as well. Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about confidence, because, and this is a challenge, we always seem to want to wait to do the thing until we’re confident that we can do it. And we all we’ve talked about this on the podcast a few times, but we all know confidence. You can’t just hand somebody confidence. You can’t teach it. You can’t even learn it unless you do the thing. And so I liked what you were saying about, you know, looking at your background and thinking about some of the things that have sort of gotten you to this point where you are. But let’s, let’s go a little bit deeper on this. How can we sort of borrow confidence or create confidence until we’ve actually proven we can do this thing and we own the confidence that we’re showing out to the world? Brian McCarthy: Yeah, I’ve got a lot to go there. So first of all, that was my biggest I’d say that was probably my biggest hurdle when I was a copywriter, was I always felt like I wasn’t good enough. I was just like, I’m one bad sales page away for like, this is gonna be bad clients gonna hate it. They’re gonna fire me. They’re gonna tell everybody I’m terrible and I’m never gonna get a job again. That, like, I had that for a good five years, like that was just always there. And of course, yeah, that confidence keeps you from like, it kept me, like, under charging at certain times. Kept me from going for certain jobs. It just made me more stressed all the time, kept maybe work longer hours than I need to, kept me buying more courses that I wouldn’t even go through because my own insecurities like, but if I have this magic knowledge, then I’ll be good, right? And that, like, that whole cycle that people get in of chasing shiny objects is just a lack of confidence. So, yeah, there’s, there’s a lot to go in here where you talk about, can you borrow confidence? Like, yeah, absolutely. I think there’s that that can be a little bit of a band aid. But, you know, if you get, like, I had certain mentors and coaches that knew the industry, and that would tell me, like, oh, you can charge that much for that. So be like, Oh, okay, I guess I’ll charge more now. Like, I guess I’ll charge 250 for a copy critique call instead of 100 great. And so you can get that, or even just that was another big thing I did. I would very often hire other copywriters to look at my work. So it’s like, Oh, okay. David robbold told me my copy is good. Okay, it’s good. Like, now I can feel better about it. So having these kind of, yeah, mentors, coaches, people you can hire, even if just a one off, that’s that’s super valuable. And I’d say the other piece where confidence really gets gets going and owned, is when you look at some of the deeper fears and beliefs and expectations people have that’s keeping them from having that confidence, and you start to look deeper at that and unravel it, that works a lot more effectively than a lot of what people are generally doing, of the like, well, just tell yourself this positive thing. Just remind yourself of the wins you do have over and over. Like, yes, that’s important, but if you haven’t done the deeper work of unraveling some of the deeper fears and beliefs, then it’s like planting seeds in a garden that’s already full of weeds. Like, it’s it’s not going to really take it’s not, it’s not going to take root. It’s you’ve got to, like, rip this other stuff out, and then that creates the space for those more, you know, owning your value, and those more confident beliefs, to really settle in and get embodied. And then then you feel that confidence and conviction more yourself. Rob Marsh: Can you give us a. Couple of examples of those existing beliefs that really keep us from developing confidence? Brian McCarthy: Sure. So one that I run into a bunch when I work with copywriters, like they have this idea of, I’m not a real quote, unquote, I’m not a real copywriter, right? Or I’m not or even just, I’m not a real writer. And then so I’m like, okay, cool. So what does a real copywriter mean? And we just go into their definition of it. So like this one client I worked with, she she had these kind of, like, personal issues going on, but basically meant she could only write for two hours a day. And she’s like, well, and she had a full time job for a well known, you know, company that hires a lot of copywriters. She’s like, well, if I can only write two hours a day, like, I’m not a real copywriter. So I’m imposter. I’m a joke. So then I’m like, Well, where did this idea come from that a real writer needs to work write six hours a day or whatever? Like, okay, oh, this is just a made up thing that you created. So she had this definition in her mind of what a real copywriter is. And we just looked at that and looked at the truth of it, and I just would ask a bunch of questions, and basically just start poking a bunch of holes at it, and then it fell apart. Then we found it like, well, what’s a new definition that feels more real and more true to you? And then she’s like, actually, I could be a real copywriter and still work two hours a day and then, and this is how the other parts of my day look, and, and was like, So, and does that feel true to you? Right? Not just a nice idea intellectual exercise, but getting to the point where, like you, honestly, like in your soul and bones, believe that, okay, cool. And, and then she could start to remind herself and operate from that place of like, well, yes, I’m a real copywriter, even if it’s not showing up in this way that I initially thought I had to show up. So that’s, that’s one idea is, how do you work through these beliefs and fears and everything? Look at your definitions. Look at your definitions of what you have, what a copywriter means, of what being successful on this project means that’s, that’s, there’s like several different ways to kind of attack this, and sometimes it takes multiple but that’s one, and it can be a very strong one for helping people get more confidence in in their role. Rob Marsh: I like that approach. A few weeks ago, on another episode of this podcast, I interviewed my friend Emily Reagan, and she told a story. I had actually forgotten of this about this, but she told a story how we were at the copywriter club in real life event in San Diego, talking at the bar, and she mentioned that she she didn’t feel comfortable being a copywriter. She wasn’t a copywriter, and she wasn’t even sure why she was at the event, and it was crazy because she was writing copy for her clients, but because she had assumed the title, you know, whether, whether it was marketing assistant or administrative assistant or virtual assistant, or whatever, at the time, she she wasn’t giving herself permission to be a copywriter, and she reminded me of this on the episode. So if anybody wants to go back and listen to go back and listen to this example, it’s episode 441, I think. But she basically said to me, or I said to her, you have permission. You are a copywriter, right? I it was kind of that sword to the shoulder, you know, you are now a knight, or you are, you know. But the idea here is that you don’t need to wait for, you know, a senior copywriter to say you’re a good enough writer to be a copywriter anymore, or a manager or, you know, and when we work for ourselves anyway, that person’s not coming along. Even a lot of coaches aren’t going to take the time to say you are a copywriter. Give yourself permission. So anyway, kind of a long answer back to you, but it’s such a good example. You don’t need to wait for permission if you’re writing, especially if you’re writing copy for clients. You’re a copywriter, and you might as well own it and start getting better at it. Brian McCarthy: And again, like, that’s, that’s a great example of, like, yeah. The almost like, the borrowed confidence that can can help, right? And like, Oh, cool. Rob told me that, and I’m good. I’m sure there’s a lot of people that have felt that way. And it’s Yeah, ultimately, you do want to get that source yourself, because, like, why, you know what, and what’s the definition of copywriter that works for you, and and why do you need somebody else to bequeath it onto you? Why, like, there’s a little bit of that, why it still can stay a little wobbly and like, it can give us confidence, but it’s still we still have those doubts, is because we’re still getting that confidence from outside of ourselves. We’re still giving the power of who we are and what we’re doing to somebody else. We need somebody else to validate it and to tell us we’re okay and tell us, like what we are, versus owning that and claiming that for ourselves. And yeah, part of that is like just knowing, like just getting really clear on what that is and what we’re showing up with and what we’re bringing. And valuing that, and yeah, and what if you what you want to call yourself based on that that feels true and right for you. Rob Marsh: Okay, so that’s alignment, confidence. Then we have consistency. Consistency feels to me like it’s just a matter of daily practice, or we’re setting the flywheel to do the thing that we do over and over, is it more than that? Brian McCarthy: So I’d say it’s more than that in there can be some blocks in that, right? So what’s keeping you from being consistent? Oh, there’s procrastination. Oh, why are you procrastinating? Oh, well, there’s some deeper fear of, you know, being seen as a fraud, or I’m gonna mess up and everyone’s gonna see I’m incompetent, or whatever it is, or, sometimes it’s misalignment, right? It goes back to the beginning of, why am I inconsistent? Because part of you knows this, ain’t it, and you’re trying to force yourself to do something that just like there’s, there’s just something a little off. So there can be pieces, either based on the first two things, or maybe something else that’s kind of in the way of that consistency. And then, yeah, there’s also just simpler things for, like, tactical steps for building that consistency. Like a lot of times, you know, people put big pressure on themselves of what that needs to be for them to be writing every day, or doing all this kind of outreach, or whatever it looks like to grow their business. And so just one helpful thing that is, you know, there’s always books on small habits and all that kind of stuff, and that’s just a super impactful way to get people going, of like, take the pressure off, do it for five minutes. It’s not even about getting the clients. It’s just about you building the habits of doing that. And when you start to take the pressure off, take the expectations you have for yourself off, then the consistency develops, and then it kind of starts to continue with itself. And these things that you are avoiding become more enjoyable, more automatic, and then you’re doing the things to grow your business and get yourself out there, deliver the copy for your clients, whatever it is. Rob Marsh: Those are some pretty good tools. As far as thinking through those first couple of months of being in business and getting up and going. But a lot of us, we start to hit other bumps as well. The one that really stands out and really hits from the beginning right up, and pros still suffer with it, and that’s imposter complex or imposter syndrome, depending on how people like to define that. We’ve had a really, I’ve pointed people to a previous episode of the podcast where we’ve talked about that with Tanya Geisler, and I think it’s episode number 47 and definitely worth a listen. But let’s, let’s talk about that again. Because no matter, no matter how much you know about imposter complex, it still seems to pop its head up when we try something new, even sometimes when we’re just doing the thing that we do, but maybe it’s for a new client or a new product, whatever. So let’s, let’s talk imposter complex. So what can we do to overcome it? Brian McCarthy: Sure, yeah, and that I went through that podcast, and it was awesome, and I think there’s a lot she shares that can really, like, shed a lot of light for people and help bring clarity. And the kind of crusade I’ve put on lately, because I learned this maybe a year ago, and then I started applying it. And really like seeing changes is that the the fundamental idea that imposter syndrome doesn’t go away, it’s just there forever. You just got to deal with it. It’s just not true. And then so once I learned that, and I started applying to my own life, and I started applying that with clients more, and I’ve seen the truth of that, like, it’s, I understand a lot of the common thing, it’s like, hey, it’s just fear. Like, yes, it’s based in fear. And that doesn’t mean, like I was afraid of dogs when I was three. Doesn’t mean I’m still afraid of dogs. You know, we can overcome these fears. We can dissolve them. And there was another point that just escaped my head. Oh, well, okay, yeah, basically, the idea that it can be, it’s there forever, just isn’t the truth. It doesn’t have to be the truth. And so the the ways that I look at imposter syndrome and help people work through it, it kind of, it’s the first is just looking at the the different fears and beliefs and expectations attached to it, which is similar to what I said before, about like the definitions we create, the definitions of what success means, how we think we need to be these expectations we have in our heads, all this stuff, and looking at that, challenging, that dismantling that, and doing that in a like it takes, it can often take a pretty deep and thorough exploration. That’s why people can think that they know like, Oh, I know I’m putting this outrageous. I know I’ve got this perfectionism thing, and it’s not actually true, but it still feels like I need to be this amazing copywriter with million dollar launches under my belt, or I suck. And I know that that’s ridiculous, and I know that that’s not true, but I still buy into it. It’s like, cool, okay. That just means you haven’t gone deep enough yet. There’s just still more stuff to explore. Or what’s hooking that in your system still? So that’s the first level. The second layer is some kind of core fear that can be kind of dissolved and broken free from. And the third layer is kind of what we touched on before as well, really looking at and owning your skills, knowledge and what you’re bringing to the table, your intention and how you’re showing up even and embodying that, not just knowing it intellectually, not just knowing, oh yeah, I’ve got skills that that are important, but actually, genuinely feeling that. And sometimes there’s internal, other internal blocks that keep us from actually feeling that, that we can get into and owning that. But when you’re when you have that piece too, and you’re able to get all three of those pieces, like imposter syndrome just goes away, because imposter syndrome is just it’s just a mental construct. It’s just this idea we have in our heads of how we think we need to be and how we think people need to react to us. And when you dig into that and let it fall apart, then you’re just showing up, however, like, with a certain intention and how you want to be. You’re just, hey, this is just me, and this is what I’m bringing and that’s it. And there’s, there’s no, like, there’s no room for impostor syndrome anymore. It’s, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t fit. It does. There’s, he’s left the room, it’s gone. And it might still come up a little bit, but it just means, Oh, there’s one of these areas. Is there’s something I’m not quite seeing, and then you explore that area, and then it can be gone again. Rob Marsh: For me, it a lot of this is based on our genetic fears, right? Because fear of rejection is literally built into our genes. 10,000 years ago, if you were rejected by the tribe, you lost family, you lost food, you lost opportunities for mating, you probably died. And because of that, we have a very healthy sense of needing to belong and and be accepted by others, just built into our genes, and anytime that we’re stepping out of the comfort zone, doing something new, doing something that’s challenging, or something where we’re putting ourselves out, maybe it’s on social media where other people are seeing us and may reject us, triggers that Very natural discussion with our brain. It’s like, Hey, you’re you’re putting yourself in jeopardy here, of all of these things that used to be real jeopardy for us, and it’s not anymore. You know, making a mistake on social media is probably not going to affect your ability to eat, or the fact that your loved ones are going to give you a hug tonight. You know, as long as it’s not some egregious, awful thing that you’re saying, you’re probably not even going to get canceled, right? So just being aware and taking a step back to think through what am I feeling, feels like a really big step towards overcoming imposter syndrome, imposter complex. But there’s maybe there’s more to more other fears that I’m not even thinking about here as well. Brian McCarthy: That’s that’s absolutely huge, that that really does come down to a lot of the core piece of it. There can be within that, within that fear of rejection, the fear of, uh, kind of being out of the tribe, there can be different kind of core fears. This is one of the things that I got from Rhonda Britton and her wheel of fear, which is all about finding, like, the specific core fear for you so and it’s not just about like, how people will react, and, you know, my my physical safety, and where I stand in the tribe and all that stuff. And that’s 100% a part of it. And then, yeah, there can be other aspects of it too, right? It’s like and what does this say about me, if I’m kicked out of the tribe, and who I am, and what am I gonna feel, and the shame that like we’re it’s not even just the, you know, survival being the social group. There’s also just certain feelings that we are so afraid to feel of this is proof I’m a loser. This is proof I’m in confident and then I’m going to feel so much shame and worthlessness, and I don’t want to feel that, so I’m going to avoid that feeling. And that’s where the imposter syndrome pops up to help us try to avoid ever facing that and feeling that. And so that’s why another piece of and why you don’t actually have to just live with imposter syndrome forever. Sometimes it can be linked to certain fears, certain pieces of shame, certain things that happened in our past, and if we just let ourselves feel that more fully, then it loses a lot of its power. So that can kind of be another doorway out. Sometimes it’s, you know, we built up this, this fear, and we’re just so afraid to feel it, and it might be tied to something that happened, and we let ourselves feel it, and it moves through us, and to go to that other, to your other point of like, well, this is just ingrained in evolutionary Okay, yeah, and there’s a lot of people that are afraid to post on social media. At first, then after five years, they’ve been doing it and they’re no longer afraid, right? Like sometimes imposter syndrome sticks around, and sometimes it doesn’t Okay, cool. So, so you’ve learned to have this feeling of safety even as you’re posting all this stuff now. Well, do you necessarily need five years of posting to build that sense of safety that you’re okay in who you are and yourself in the standing in society, regardless of the posting. Or are there ways to look at address some of those fears that are coming up so you can get in that state before without needing five years of posting every day to get there? And that’s what I believe and have seen, is can be true. If you go deeper into that fears initially, you can start to unravel them and evaporate them. And yeah, it might still take now, instead of needing five years of posting every day to finally feel confident with it, then now you’re there in a couple of weeks. Rob Marsh: Yeah, so much of this really comes down to just do it anyway. And I know that’s really terrible mindset advice, because there are all these blocks and the head trash that we deal with, but ultimately, the reason that we go through so many of these exercises is to allow us to just do it anyway. Brian McCarthy: There’s a lot of value in the doing it anyway, and it can also be a bigger problem than I think a lot of people realize, because if you’ve got all this fear of what’s everyone gonna think, and I’m gonna get kicked out of the tribe and all that stuff, and then you do the thing anyway, and then you get that negative backlash, man, it’s, it can be now, now the fear got even stronger, right? You raise the bar even higher, it can be even harder to do that. So, like, if you’re not in the pro like, and also, if it’s, if the if the action, so that’s, that’s one possible detriment. And why I’m more focused on, let’s get into and release the block in the first place. So doing the action comes more naturally and easily, and it’s not a thing you even have to force yourself to do. So that’s that’s one piece of it. The other part of forcing yourself to do it anyway is sometimes you forcing yourself might be coming from a place of fear, a place of scarcity, a place of I need to do this so I fit in. So if you’re doing your outreach, you’re posting on social media from a place of fear, then you’re again feeding that fear making it strong, versus if you’re posting from that place of like I believe in this copywriting thing I’m learning about, and I’m excited to share and talk about it, even if I’m not the world’s biggest expert, I’m just sharing a thing I think is cool, and I just want to see who else is think thinks it’s cool with me, such different energies sharing from those Two different places. And if you’re sharing from the place of kind of like forcing yourself, then you can just reinforce that need to work from that place, that fear, the I need to fit in, and then like to go on what we talked about the very beginning, when people build these businesses and realize they’re not satisfied, they’re burned out, they don’t even like what they’re doing all that much. A lot of it’s because they built it from this place of forcing themselves. And I just gotta, you know, do it and like coming from fear and scarcity and having to prove themselves. So there is absolutely a place, I think for Hey, you just got to do it anyway. You just got to watch some of that alignment. And where is that action coming from? Because there is a trap of it can kind of reinforce some of the things and just make them stronger and just keep them with us, if we’re not careful in how we do that makes sense. Rob Marsh: I want to switch our conversation just a little bit. You mentioned burnout, and I think this is a really interesting phenomena. A lot of times, people get burned out, and they don’t really realize they’re burned out, you know, they’re just tired, or they’re tired of the work, or, you know, things that are happening in their business, things just feel like they’re slow, or you’re moving through molasses, however you want to describe that. And then there’s full on burnout, where you almost don’t want to get out of bed, because, you know, whatever it is that is burning you out is, is, you know, holding you down, holding you back. So I’d love to explore this a little bit, but maybe the first question is, how do I even know if, if burnout is happening before you know it gets to the point where, I mean, I just don’t even, I can’t even look at my business anymore. I can’t even face the inbox or my calendar or whatever you know is is just causing that dread. Brian McCarthy: That’s that’s such a good point. And for how to look at spot burnouts happening. I mean, looking at your energy levels, your excitement, one indicator can be your whole life kind of feels like an obligation, like a to do list. And you make such a good point. Like, people don’t see it coming, in part because they’ve just been in it for so long, like it’s what they know. So actually, another, like, kind of random thing, I do improv comedy as well, and that’s also a thing that I like Teach and part of my coaching, but I also perform, and I just love it. And a lot of people will do an improv comedy class or a couple, and then they realize, like, Oh, this is what feeling good is. This is what fun is. This is what joy is. And then they start to realize how much they’ve been missing it in their everyday life. So one thing is just getting out of your kind of everyday stuff and doing other things that can help you start to get that contrast of, like, you know, there’s taking a trip or doing some improv class, or, like, another client, yeah, it took a took a two week vacation, then comes back is like, Oh, I like this helped me get perspective on how much I don’t like what I’m doing right Now, and like, what’s available and what feelings are available. So one is just getting out doing other stuff, and then seeing how you feel and seeing that contrasted to how you feel on an everyday basis can be one helpful thing, and it’s just good to do anyway, because novelty and new explorations and new stuff is good for us. That’s one piece. Another piece is like, if you just wake up and feel like you start going through the to do list in your head and it’s just a non stop slog of obligations, and you’re just going through it, that can be some warning bells. If you’re looking at your day and like, hey, when when did you feel lit up? When did you feel excited? When did you enjoy what you were doing? And if you’re having trouble finding answers to those questions, that could be another sign, if you’re feeling like a sense of purpose, because you can, you can not be enjoying it that much. But man, you know where you’re going, and you know that this is a strong like a necessary piece, and you’re okay with that, like that can be beautiful. So is there a sense of purpose as well for Where are you going longer term? And like, this kind of being the thing that’s going to get you to that next thing, whether you’re clear on what that next thing is or No, but you have a strong belief in it, and you still just have a sense that this is right, that would be another thing I’d check in on. So like, check in on your sense of enjoyment, check in on your sense of purpose. Check in on is everything feeling like an obligation, or is this feeling like expansive and like it’s what you want to be doing so and you know, how much of your day and your week, are these things? These are kind of like different indicators I’d be looking at and kind of ranking different areas, along with your sense of purpose to help see, are you potentially on a road for burnout? Rob Marsh: Let’s say I’m there, burned out. Yeah, what? What do? And I know there are a lot of copywriters that hit this point, and I think the question becomes, should I quit and do something totally different, or is there a way to get the joy back, assuming that we want to get the joy back. What do you recommend? Brian McCarthy: I work with a lot of a lot of my clients. It’s funny, they’ll come to me like being like, I need to quit and get a new job and doing something new. And I’d say maybe half of them end up doing that, and half of them end up like, loving their work again. So there’s, yeah, I would, I’d first look at the patterns I kind of create that created the burnout and some of the internal stuff that led to it. Because otherwise, if you just go jump another thing, cool. But if these patterns repeat now you’re just gonna find another job to get burned out by, and you’re gonna keep doing this cycle. So I would definitely look at, you know, what created the burnout first, and a lot of times, what happens with my clients, and what I find is it’s, it’s due to a lot of internal processes and to how they feel about themselves and their work and their relationships with people in their work. So one example, had a client who was super burned out, and we got and it’s like, oh, the you know, company needs more we need to hire more people. We need better systems, right? It’s what you’re if you’re burned out, you’re probably pointing the fingers at all the people and things, how it’s their fault and the revenue is not good enough, and all that stuff, and then we looked more internal and of like, what how she was viewing herself in the situation, and what we found for her, big time, people pleaser, big time I need to take care of everybody else, and my own needs are on the back burner, and I’ve. Got to, like, be I got to be super responsive. No one else needs to be super responsive. But I need to holding expectations for herself that she doesn’t even have for anybody else. Feeling like, yeah, she’s got to take care of everybody else, and she’s got to make everybody else happy all the time. And so, like, really, the people pleasing thing was like, okay, cool. Let’s work through that. And that was the big thing that allowed her to then start taking bits of time off. And then as she was taking more time off, she started to get more energized again. Another thing I’ll do with clients is just schedule, like 30 minutes a week, an hour a week, to just do nothing, just let themselves do nothing, because their whole day is obligation and doing things, and this sense of, I need to do everything for everyone else. So just giving them a little period of time to just not have that starts to get some internal energy going, of like, Oh, okay. Like, okay. I can feel myself again. I can start to ask myself, What do I want here? So that was almost a little tangent, but just a little like side trick tactic people who start to use, but the other things are like, yeah, the deeper stuff around people pleasing. That’s one example. Another people realize so much of their work is like, I’ve got to they’re actually trying to prove themselves to their peers, to people in their company. It’s this, this drive to prove themselves, show that they’re good enough, show that they’re worthy, is actually what’s causing the burnout. So that’s why again, cool man, get another job. If you’re still trying to prove yourself, you’re gonna end up burned out again. So let’s, let’s deal with that deeper issue so it can be other things as well, people pleasing, proving yourself. These are kind of different, different areas, but these are some of the internal things that create the burnout. And when you look at and dismantle them from the inside, it can be such a quick shift of, you know, within couple months, couple weeks even, it’s like, oh, the burnout is gone, and I enjoy my work again, right? Like, that’s literally what I see that all the time. It’s super cool. Sometimes it takes longer, and, you know, everyone’s got their own path. And sometimes it’s like people pleasing and proving yourself. Like, sometimes you might have a lot of these different things that need to kind of get worked through and sorted out and dismantled and let go of and but those are, those are some of the inner pieces. It’s, it’s really about looking at like, well, what’s been driving you is it obligation, trying to please people, what people think of you, all this kind of stuff, and then learn to be driven from a place of more authentic expression and confidence and expansiveness and inspiration instead. There’s probably some variety here as well. You know, I imagine if I was hired to write the same blog post over and over and over and that, I mean, it happens, right? You get a client that needs you to write about their thing, and you’ve got to figure out the 18th, 19th, 20th, different way to write about their thing, that lack of variety can can cause it as well, and that might be an extreme example. But if all you’ve written is blog posts, maybe it’s time to change it up. And, you know, add some new products to to your writing, or if you have been writing in a niche, as we talked about earlier, and you just you’re seeing the same kind of thing over and over, maybe it’s time to switch that up a little bit and play around in another niche, or with a different kind of client, or with a different kind of copy or voice. Or, you know, there’s so many different ways that we can change up our businesses, but it’s really easy to get into that rut, and then two years, three years, where you’ve been doing the same old, same old, it just it doesn’t light you up the way that it used to. So I don’t know that you’ve got all of the answers on, how do we keep things fresh, but the and obviously, this is why we take vacations. This is, you know, why we try to have hobbies, although oftentimes a lot of copywriters, our hobby is copywriting. It is marketing, right? And reading the books about the stuff, or going to the events about the stuff. And so even your hobbies start to impede on your work and and your well being. So variety feels like a big missing piece here too. Brian McCarthy: Yeah, that’s a great point. And yeah, sometimes that can just be a signal for like, hey, maybe it’s time to level up. Maybe it’s time to try something new. Add a different type of writing into your system. Start, you know, be step up to an editor. Do that, move into a different, higher level role. And I’ll also say there’s, there’s also ways to look at how to make that monotonous work more interesting for you. So I had a client who was in that exact situation, and he was writing these scripts, and he’s just like, I’ve been writing these scripts for years, like I’m so sick of it, and I get that was part of what made me leave copywriting. Like, I’m just like, Man, I just, I just don’t want to do it anymore. I used to be nerd out to it so much. Now I just didn’t care. But you can look at like, and this can be very for individuals of like, okay, but what could make it interesting for you? So me and this client started to explore that and play with these different ideas and what that might look like, and what he found he likes to be, like, intellectually challenged, like he wants it to be hard, so he would like make it hard on himself. I forget exactly what he did, but that was the point. Like he was like, I’m like, what would it look like for this to be more challenge? Like, he’d like give himself different challenges to try to do, to like, write it in this different way that he’d never do before, that he initially thought his clients wouldn’t like, but then it ended up being the most popular video they ever did, and it was just, like, totally out of left field. So he’s like, How can I actually make this more difficult and more challenging became like, the thing of inspiration for him. And there’s, you know, there’s a million other ways, and I’d say it’s probably different for each individual of like, well, how could you make that fun for you? I was also thinking of like, you know, again, fellow of improv comedy. So it could be like, Man, what if you just, like, took on a character and start writing from this character, just to see what they express, and how that can be, right? That could be like, a totally different, you know, just thing to explore, and that, like, again, that would be on a very kind of personal case by case basis. Of, like, what would it take to make this monotonous thing you’ve done a million times kind of fun and interesting and a little bit exciting, and, you know, let yourself explore that a little bit, instead of immediately. And, you know, maybe you know, maybe you find something, maybe you don’t, and then it’s time to move on to something else. But I think it’s definitely a question in an area worth exploring a bit before just being like, well, I guess I’ll just quit this and become an Uber driver or whatever. Rob Marsh: Yeah, as you’re talking I’m thinking about musicians who have that one hit. So my, one of my favorite bands is the Barenaked Ladies. Almost 30 years ago, they have a hit. You know, if I had a million dollars, I bet you that they have probably played that song at least. You know, at all of their shows, the fans demand it. So 200 performances, 30 years, you know, we’re talking six, 7000 times. And and, of course, they’ve got to be sick of the song, like, when you when you’ve done something that many times. And so that band in particular, like, they changed it up a little bit. You know, there’s, they changed the verses, they changed the words and the live performances. But also, there’s, they’re not only doing that song right? They’ve written 20 albums since then. They’ve, you know, done all kinds of different explorations into different kinds of music and and so they’re keeping it fresh. So yeah, while they, the fans demand that they keep going back to that one thing, there’s all of this other stuff that’s happening around that. So there’s a copy writing lesson there. Maybe I’ll drop this into an email to my list as I’m talking it through. But you know, the way to keep it fresh isn’t necessarily quitting, and it’s not necessarily stopping doing the thing that is making you the money and that your clients are demanding, but it’s adding all of these other pieces that allow you to still explore and enjoy the thing that you love doing in the first place? Brian McCarthy: Totally. Yeah, and it just, I thought of a quick like tool that might be helpful for people of if they’ve got, you know, okay, I’m gonna wake up tomorrow and write these emails that I’ve written 100 times if, if your goal isn’t write the email, but it’s, have fun writing the email, like, that’s the rule, if you’re not having fun, stop and then see what it takes, and see what that’s like and and have that be the goal, and see what comes from it, instead of, you know, just just slogging through and checking another box. Yeah? And I think that’s, that’s a great point of, like, they barricade ladies found a way to make it fun for them cool. Take that for yourself. How can you make this fun for yourself? Rob Marsh: I like that, and I’m going to see if I can apply that to you know, how do I have fun while doing my taxes or keeping my books? The things that I really hate about my business? How can I make it fun? Probably pay somebody else to do it is, is the final answer? Brian McCarthy: There’s certain things that you’re just gonna hit a wall, or it’s just like, Nah, man. It’s just, ain’t it? Yeah, that’s not. Rob Marsh: I’ve never, I’m never gonna be the tax happy copywriter, I guess. Brian McCarthy: So expectations there too, because it’s not about, like, how do I make taxes the most fun. It’s like, okay, well, you probably maybe that might be a bit high, but can you at least make it like, not suck, if that’s okay, how do I make this just like, Fine, you know, finds a big increase from dread and misery, you know? Rob Marsh: This is going to be a weird question. But I’d love to see how you, you know, work through this. But if there was a copywriter mindset, what is that? What would that be? Brian McCarthy: Oh, I like this. A copywriter mindset, to me, would be full ownership of what you’re doing, who you are, what you bring to the table, and a belief in yourself and your value that comes from you, it could be informed by mentors and people around you and you know and what you’ve seen and learned in the industry and everything, but ultimately, it’s it’s you taking ownership of that, and rather than being dependent on what other people believe a copywriter should be, what you’ve heard a copywriter should be, again, that can inform you or other other people’s standards of what, what, what needs to be done and delivered and all this stuff, again, that informs you, but ultimately, like you’re Creating this road and owning your value fully yourself. Does that make sense? Rob Marsh: Yeah. Brian, there’s been really interesting discussion. If somebody wants to reach out to you or connect to you, follow you in the things that you’re doing and talking about and helping with, where should they go? Brian McCarthy: McCarthymindsetcoaching.com, I’ve also got, if you like the imposter syndrome talk, which copywriters tend to if you go McCarthy mindset coaching.com/imposter, I’ve got an e book that shows you how some of my clients overcame imposter syndrome, goes a bit deeper to some of the stuff that we talked about. So that could be immediately valuable. And then, yeah, I’ve also got, you know, loads of case studies and stuff on my website, a lot of which are copywriters and showing how helped, how they’ve worked through other areas, like procrastination, self doubt, all that stuff. Rob Marsh: I’ll link to both of those in the show notes so people can find them pretty easily. And I appreciate your time. Brian, thanks.  Brian McCarthy: You bet this is great. Thanks Brian for walking through a bunch of the mindset issues that hold us back. I’ve heard marketing guru Perry Marshall call this stuff head trash and I really like that way of framing this stuff. It often is trash that is keeping us from moving forward, but it’s very real and needs to be dealt with so we can move on. If you want to follow Brian, you can find him at McCarthyMindsetCoaching.com. And you can get his free ebook on imposter complex at mccarthymindsetcoaching.com/imposter. And of course you should check out that old episode I mentioned as we were just starting out with Tanya Geisler about imposter complex if you are struggling with confidence or that nagging voice inside your head that is telling you that you’re not ready, or that you’re a fake, or that you’re not qualified. There’s a lot of good stuff on that episode which I’ve linked to in the show notes. If mindset is a struggle for you, I don’t want to miss this opportunity to mention several episodes of the podcast we’ve done’ with mindset coach Linda Perry. You can find those on our website or just google The Copywriter Club and Linda Perry and they should pop up… we’ve covered a lot of ground with Linda and those episodes are also worth adding to your list. Early on in this interview I mentioned that you don’t need to wait for permission to be a copywriter. If you write copy for clients, then you are a copywriter. However, I don’t want to minimize the actual writing chops you need to have in order to be a copywriter. You have to be able to deliver results. You have to know how to persuade and sell. You need to be able to write legibly and clearly and help your clients solve real marketing problems. You can just write a blog post and call yourself a copywriter. I mean, you could, but you’re faking it. If that’s where you are in your journey, focus on picking up those skills. We have a bunch of resources in The Copywriter Club to help you do that… maybe the best place to start is The Copywriter Underground—you can learn more about what that includes at

TCC Podcast #455: A Proven Process for LinkedIn Success with Divya Agrawal

This isn’t the first time we’ve talked about LinkedIn. But in this episode, we cover specific recommendations for the content you should create and post as well as a proven process for connecting with clients. My guest is content writer Divya Agrawal and what she shared could change your approach to LinkedIn for the better. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground The How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’ve got enough clients or you’re not willing to put yourself out there to find the clients you need, well, you can probably skip this episode. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Like last week, we’re revisiting a recurring topic on the show this week, but unlike last week, the recurring topics isn’t persuasion or psychology. This week we’re talking about the biggest challenge facing almost all copywriters and that’s finding clients. Even established copywriters will struggle with this from time to time. One of the trusims of business is that if you don’t have clients willing to pay you for the work you do, it doesn’t matter how good your website is, it doesn’t matter how good a writer you are, it doesn’t matter that you can solve your client’s problems better than anyone else… without the client, you don’t have a business. My guest this week is Divya Agrawal, a SaaS and Tech copywriter who has deep experience finding clients on LinkedIn.  Divya started her career as a programmer but quickly figured out she was on the wrong job track, so she switched to writing. The lessons she shares from her experience launching this new business will help any copywriter or content writer who is looking for clients to work with. Specifically, Divya used LinkedIn to create connections with prospects. Her success posting content and making comments on other posts is a model for other writers who want to do the same… and LinkedIn is where a significant number of the people who hire copywriters hangout and connect. If your clients are there, you need to be there too. In this interview, Divya shares the questions she uses to vet her prospects before they become clients, and she outlines exactly how you can connect with clients on LinkedIn yourself. This is informaiton she charges her coaching clients for, but she’s sharing much of it today for free. Before we jump into our interview, a little while ago I recorded a masterclass to show copywriters, content writers and other marketers how to write “emotional” copy. Everyone says emotions sell, but how do you actually write emotional copy? I walk through more than a dozen examples in this masterclass and give you a proven process for figuring out the right emotions to focus on as you write… and how they change as you make your pitch. The masterclass includes several bonuses on storytelling, using A.I. to find dominant and transformational emotions, and much more. You can get this masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion And now, my interview with Divya Agrawal. Divya, welcome to the podcast. I’m excited to hear your story and to talk about how you’re finding clients, but tell us, how did you become a freelance copywriter for Tech. Divya Agrawal: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast, Rob, I highly appreciate this chance to talk to you. I have been a big fan of your podcast, so it’s really cool that I get to sit here and share what I know. Yeah, I became a freelance tech writer back in 2017 end of 2017 after a year long stint at a IT company as a software engineer, I was a Salesforce developer for a year, and that didn’t work out. I did not like the corporate environment. I did not like the work I was doing. So then I was like, I need to do something else. I had always been a writer. So I was one of those kids in school who is asked to write other kids speeches. So I was the introvert writing speeches for my more extroverted friends, who would get on stages and deliver those speeches. I was participating in essay competitions, all of those things.  So I also had a lot of passion for technology. I was always learning about new technologies. I was good at development, if I do say so myself. So when I decided to shift gears, I was like, let me try and combine two of my passions, writing and technology, and that’s how I got into it. I had a little bit of an internship experience at a local IT company writing their social media content. So I when I decided to do this full time, I reached out to the HR. I was like, This is what I’m doing full time now. Do you have contacts for me? And he put me in touch with a bunch of companies, and that’s how I got my first client. Rob Marsh: So as you were reaching back to the school and they gave you these contacts, did he make warm introductions, or did you have to reach out to them directly, like how. Did that all come together? Divya Agrawal: Yes. So when I reached out to the HR at the company that I had interned with, I just had to tell him that, you know, this is what I’m doing full time, and he knew that I was good at writing. I understood technology and how it worked. So he confidently put me in touch with other people, and I actually didn’t have to do a lot of convincing. It was actually really easy to get my first client. Of course, I have experienced other struggles in business later, but getting my first few clients was not a struggle. Rob Marsh: So you have a background in programming and technology, obviously, that gives you some advantage in writing for tech. But as a writer, do you think that copywriters need to know you know tech, to write for tech or SAT you know they need to have maybe done some development work in order to write for SaaS companies? Or how does that skill set benefit you or hold copywriters back? Divya Agrawal: I would say, if you are working for SAS, you do not need a lot of development experience. But for the for the kind of clients that I work with, they are deeply into technology, and I, even I with my background, have to spend some time understanding what exactly they do. So let’s say I worked with a an AI ops client. So then I had to understand what aiops does. I had to understand how IT operations work in IT companies and all of those areas. I had to deeply read and understand about them before I began working with the client, my clients also help me with the right materials, like they have internal marketing materials that I study and prepare myself with. But if you are doing SaaS or less complicated technology writing, I don’t think it’s important to have a degree in computer science, because as writers, I believe we can write about anything, because the skill lies in asking the right questions and not in knowing all the answers. So I don’t think that a degree is important. And I have proof about this because I worked as a writer for a age for an agency in the US that works with law firms, and I didn’t know anything about any laws, even in India, let alone the US, but I was able to work with them because I was able to ask the right questions. Rob Marsh: And what are some of those questions, and I should maybe just jump in. I totally agree with you. I think you know, when we’re writing about things, obviously it helps to understand how a mechanism works or how a program functions, but the real thing that we’re selling is the benefit for the client or the end user. And so as long as you understand how that, you know, this transformation happens this result they get, obviously, we could write about it, but you know, in in thinking about this of what are those questions that you’re asking to get to that end result? Divya Agrawal: First of all, I asked about the buyer group that we are targeting for a specific piece of content in B to B, there are buyer groups. And then I try to understand if there’s a specific buyer persona that the post or the white paper is aimed at, what are their specific challenges? What is the status quo? What are they struggling with right now that my client is trying to solve with their product, and then I try to understand what is their competitive positioning. So who are the other competitors in the market? A lot of the times, status quo is the competition. So how things are done in legacy companies with legacy IT systems is generally the competition. So then I try to understand whether if that’s the case, or if there are other players in competition, and how my client’s product is different from those competitors, and how they are trying to position and what is the narrative that they are bringing to to make the buyer understand that this is the status quo. This is what you’re losing out on right now, and here’s what how we can shift it, here’s how we can improve it, and here’s how the competitors are doing, but here’s why that’s a weaker solution, and here’s why ours is stronger. So those are the things that go into it. And then, yeah, and then finally, bringing the products, features, benefits, into the limelight as and when the piece demands it. Rob Marsh: That makes sense. Okay, so let’s go back to your story. You were launching this writing business, you reached out to get these referrals. But obviously, referrals don’t last forever. You’ve got to continue to grow your business. So what was the next step for you as you were looking for additional clients? Divya Agrawal: Yeah, early on, I really heavily relied on LinkedIn. LinkedIn was still very in its early stages. This is 2018 2019 and there were a handful of creators who were doing videos on LinkedIn. And I started doing videos, you know, I was in that young person. I was with that young person energy in my early 20s. So I was experimenting with everything, and then somehow I started getting a lot of leads from LinkedIn. From all this experimentation, I was posting a lot. I was posting videos. I was doing carousels, everything. And then other writers started asking me how I was being so active on LinkedIn, being so visible, growing my business, and that’s when I started the second arm of my business, which is coaching freelance writers and copywriters on the lead generation strategies. Rob Marsh: So when we were talking a while ago, I mentioned we’ve talked a lot about LinkedIn on the podcast. In fact, some listeners may see that, you know, oh no, here’s another episode about LinkedIn. And, you know, I even said to you, hey, we’ve covered a lot of this stuff. So what can we talk about that might add some additional ideas for copywriters and content writers, and hopefully, like, we can really dive into your process and and go, you know, so granular that people walk away from this episode knowing exactly how to succeed. But as you started out, you’re posting a lot of video content. Is that still like the stuff that’s working today? How has, how have things changed since 2018 2019 to where we are here in 2025… Divya Agrawal: Oh, a lot actually. LinkedIn used to be so much less crowded and noisy. Back then, like I said, only a handful of creators were doing content at all on LinkedIn. Today, there are a lot of a lot more professionals creating content on LinkedIn from all kinds of careers, which is really great to see. However, specifically with video, I don’t think that video is that big on LinkedIn right now, because I see it from the perspective of, okay, when I log into LinkedIn, am I watching videos? And I’m not. I scroll past them. Um, usually I feel like LinkedIn is a very text heavy platform, and I expect to read a lot when I go on LinkedIn, but when I’m in, when I’m on Instagram, I expect to see a lot of videos. So yeah, I don’t think videos are big on LinkedIn right now. Rob Marsh: Okay, so what is working right now? Divya Agrawal: What I believe works for freelance writers and copywriters is creating lead generating LinkedIn posts. And what I call lead generating LinkedIn posts are posts that are written from the perspective of your ideal clients you disregard all the distraction and the noise on LinkedIn, and you focus on what your ideal clients need to know about you before they can hire you. So how can you build that know, like and trust factor with them? And then you just put the blinders on and create your own content, and that’s how I have been finding leads on LinkedIn, growing my business, etc. Rob Marsh: So can we talk about some specific examples of how you’re doing that and what you’re posting, the kinds of problems that you’re talking about, or the ideas that you’re sharing that really pull in these potential clients? Divya Agrawal: Sure. So how I see it? I see LinkedIn. I see my services, specific services that I offer as LinkedIn pillars. Content, pillars, so let’s say thought leadership, content, white papers, case studies, interview led blog posts. So all of these are specific content pillars. And then for each of these services, what do your ideal clients want to know? So they want to know, what is your process of creating content? What are some of the testimonials from you having done the same work for other clients. How do you approach these deliverables, and what do your collaborations with clients look like? How far do you invest in your projects? So are you just doing writing? You get a brief and you write and you’re done, or are you also doing strategy work? How do you ensure that each piece. Of content fits into a bigger strategy and fits into the bigger picture and helps the clients. Helps your clients achieve their goals. How you maintain client relationships and partake in your clients success? How much do you charge? What are the timelines you work with? Whether you prefer long term engagements or one off projects, and then, do you conduct interviews? How do you conduct interviews? What’s your process there? How you handle revisions and feedback? All of those things are what your ideal clients are interested in knowing about your business. And that’s what I focus on the most in my own LinkedIn content, and this is what I teach freelance writers to also do. Of course, there are other kinds of content, like introducing yourself on LinkedIn every once in a while, sharing some behind the scenes from your business, or maybe sharing your pets pictures, your kids pictures, things like that. Rob Marsh: Okay, and this is probably obvious, but I just want to be crystal clear so that nobody misunderstands. You just gave us this long list of things to be writing about on LinkedIn, but you’re not suggesting we put all of that into one or two posts. These are individual ideas for posts. So one day I might write about revision process, my revision process, and the next day I might write about, you know, how much I charge, or why I charge the way I do, and then the next day, or it’s probably not even every day, you know, three days later, or whatever I write about. So you’ve just given us, it was probably about 2425 things that could easily fill a content calendar for a month or two, and then almost just start over and sort of talk about those same topics again in a slightly different way. Divya Agrawal: Yes, and if you match each service to each of those ideas, you probably have like three months of content right there which speaks to your ideal clients, which talks about how you specifically deliver service, how you specifically work with clients, so it’s not generic content. It really brings out your expertise, your experience, why you do things the way you do them, even how you learned to evolve your processes anytime you’re making a small change in how you deliver a service or how you set up your back end processes, you can create a post about it. Rob Marsh: And would you say that these these post ideas are LinkedIn specific, because they’re so based around your business, or could you take some of these and also use them, say on Instagram or Tiktok or some of the other platforms. Divya Agrawal: For sure, all of these ideas can be content ideas for other platforms, if you are using other channels for your business’s marketing. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I suppose if you’re gonna take those ideas though, you obviously you’re gonna customize them for that channel. So you mentioned earlier Instagram you expect to see videos. So you wouldn’t be posting copy or text on Instagram. You’d probably want to make a video talking about the same kind of a thing as you go through. But I also, I like that you break it up by product and making those your content pillars. So, you know, if I write sales pages, you know, I’ve got 25 things that I can write about sales pages. But I also happen to write case studies, and so I’ve got those 25 things about case studies, and each of those pillars may attract a slightly different client into my business. Divya Agrawal: Yes, exactly. And talking about specific services, you could also match that up with multiple niches. So if you are working in tech, and let’s say you also do healthcare writing, then you can create all sorts of combinations there and talk about things repeatedly, which is completely fine. Sometimes writers are like, you know, my content is not unique. Other writers are also talking about the same things, but that is a common objection when you think about things from the perspective of your peers, because you are connected with probably hundreds of writers on LinkedIn, but your ideal clients are not connected to hundreds of writers. They are only they may only be connected with a few or more, probably you might be the only writer in their network, so they are not seeing this content over and over again. But so again, it’s like you center your ideal prospects when you think about content and you forget all of the other distractions. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s actually a really important point that I think point that I think people forget. We see so much marketing and so many things from, like you said, peers, other copywriters, other designers, programmers, you know, all of these people who are doing the same things that we do as freelancers, but our our audiences don’t always, you know, there. Not necessarily in the marketing space, right? So if I write for roofing companies, I’m not sure that there’s a lot of roofers on LinkedIn, but let’s assume that there are. They’re not seeing 100 posts from other copywriters. They’re seeing mostly people in the construction industry or people that they’re connected with. So I think that that’s a really good point. But let’s also talk about, how do we make our content stand out? Because one of the things that’s happened with LinkedIn is that there is so much sameness Now, part of it is that we see it over and over and so, you know, maybe the problem’s not quite as bad for our clients as it is for us, but I have a feeling that there are clients who are seeing, you know, the same kinds of posts, the same and especially with AI, you know, literally, the same kinds of headlines, the same ideas, over and over. And so how do you make content stand out? And how are the people that you’re working with on LinkedIn doing that as well? Divya Agrawal: One way to make your content stand out is to incorporate stories. So things that are happening in your business every day. You went on a discovery call, it went well, you talk about that. You went on a discovery call, it didn’t go well. You talk about that. You recently completed a project. You provide some context into how you made it successful, whether there was a challenge that you had to overcome, whether it went smoothly, and what are the processes that you put in place to make it so. So all of these stories make your content unique, because a lot less people on LinkedIn are sharing real business stories and showing, okay, this is what’s up in my business. A lot more are out there talking about, here’s how to do things in your business, or a lot more like how to achieve something, how I achieved something. But a lot less content on LinkedIn is about actually sharing behind the scenes of your business. So that’s one way that your content can stand out. Rob Marsh: Yeah, stories are big, and obviously stories tend to be personal, and so you know, the things that have happened to me haven’t happened to you, so that that definitely helps. So what kinds of success have you seen with LinkedIn? So you know, you’ve been posting this stuff, but how did this impact your business in a big way? Divya Agrawal: I would say last year alone, I received 115 plus leads from LinkedIn for both my short term and long term projects, and I have had all kinds of opportunities come in. One was a book feature, so one of my freelance writer friends wrote a book, and I got to be one of the interview features in the book. I have had guest contribution opportunities to contribute guest articles on some really great websites. There have been podcast appearances and so, yeah, all kinds of opportunities, actually. Rob Marsh: And how often are you posting? Divya Agrawal: Right now, I’m posting five to six times a week. Rob Marsh: Okay, so literally, every day you post, yes, nine leads a month. You know, that’s roughly 115 leads a year. Is pretty good. Obviously, they’re not all for tech projects or tech writing projects. But how do you then go from somebody who reaches out and says, hey, I’m interested. You know, what does the conversation look like so that you can actually close those clients? Divya Agrawal: Yes, my first priority is to qualify the lead. So I have a pretty tight system that I use to qualify whether or not a client is going to be good for me. And how I do it is, I qualify the company, the person and the project. So there has to be a fit in all three of those areas for someone to be an ideal client. First of all, I will look at their like, what company they are associated with, what is the project they are talking about. I will get on a discovery call, and then I’ll find out more details. And as I go, I will keep checking these boxes that I have, and yeah, at the end of it, hopefully, if they’re a good fit, we get to work together. Rob Marsh: So what are those boxes that you’re checking? What like? How do you know that a company is a fit, a person’s a fit, and a project is a fit? Divya Agrawal: Yeah. So I have this series of questions, and I think everyone should make their own series of questions. So for example, to qualify the company, I am asking how much foundational work this client already has. So if there are startup, they could be starting marketing from scratch. Much if they’re a more established company, they might already have their value proposition, positioning different audience segments that they target. They might know why their customers buy, how their product differs from the competition, et cetera. Then what is their budget for content marketing? How much revenue they are making annually than their payment terms. So are they okay with upfront payment? Do they have a 30 or 45 day payment policy? Do they need me to sign a non compete clause? Do they want me to sign an NDA and not reveal that I’m working with them how big of a company it is, so the biggest companies usually have a lot of bureaucracy. On the other hand, startups often come with a lot of chaos and change because they’re figuring everything out. So I like to be somewhere in the middle of those two and then what is the project? So for the project, are they providing clear expectations for what they are looking for? Will they provide me the topic to write the content, if it’s a series of blog posts, or do they want me to help with the editorial calendar? Do they provide me additional background material, or is it my job to do an in depth research? Are there interviews involved? Is there any kind of SEO work involved? Is there designing work involved? And then I also measure a project by Is it like a next level project for me, or is it more of the same? So depending on your experience level, you might prioritize more of the same projects, or you might want to reach out of your comfort zone and go for next level projects. And then what are the timelines that the client has set up? And yeah, if it’s an ongoing project or a one off project, and then people. So there are a lot of red flags that I now avoid, having worked with some problematic people in the past. So some of those red flags is um, if they are engaging in some fear mongering, you know, like AI is already taking over, there’s less work to go around. Are you sure you’re um ready to let this project go? If they are using that sort of language to negotiate, um, negotiate me on my price. Then, is, is the person looking for help with a single project or hoping to build a long term relationship with you that is a big green flag for me, because I like to work with clients over a long period of time. Then, are they late for calls? Are they constantly canceling calls on the last minute? So yeah, and over the years, as I’ve worked with people, I have created this huge list of things that I look out for. Rob Marsh: It’s a good list, and obviously we’re all looking for those red flags. So having those of the leads that you get then, and you put them through this discovery call process, how many of them do you close on a monthly basis? And what does a typical project look like? Divya Agrawal: I don’t have that statistic for you right now, because it’s really hard to like measure. I do have an Excel sheet where I capture all the leads, but I just don’t do a good job of finding out what that percentage is. But yeah, this is my process of closing them. I like to sign contracts. I like if they have a policy of upfront payment, or if I suggested and they are ready to do that. Rob Marsh: Yeah, and you mentioned you like to work long term. So you know, usually you’re signing a retainer of some kind. What does that work look like on a month to month basis? Is it a couple of blog posts? Are you working on a variety of different projects? What does that typical retainer agreement look like? Divya Agrawal: Yes, sometimes it’s a series of blog posts month after month, and other times it has also been white papers, it has been case studies. So I had this client who I was writing two blog posts and a white paper for every month, there was this other client who I was refreshing case studies for every month. So those two were like long term, recurring work. Rob Marsh: That makes sense. So going back to LinkedIn, let’s say that I have not been posting on LinkedIn, or maybe I posted a four. Few times last year, but I haven’t posted in several months. The idea of posting five or six times a week, even though you’ve given me this list of all of these things that I could write about, you know, 25 ish items, you know, across my different content pillars, it still feels like too much, really too much to get started. So what is the bare minimum that I would need to do, or another copywriter would need to do in order to start seeing traction. Divya Agrawal: Yeah, there are a few things if you don’t want to directly go into publishing your own content, you can start by engaging with other people’s content. You probably follow a lot of freelance writers. You probably follow a lot of your ideal prospects, so start engaging with their content. Leave really thoughtful comments under their posts, and really try to make a conversation. And don’t just do it for the sake of getting visibility, but really see how you can add to the conversation. Bring a different perspective. Again, share a story. All of the things that you can talk about in your own content can also be stuff that you can post under someone else’s content. So comments are content too, and that will help you warm up your posting muscle a little bit, and then once you’re more comfortable being visible on LinkedIn, and you have sort of a network of people that you’ve engaged with, you’ll feel more comfortable posting on LinkedIn, because then those people might engage with your content also. Rob Marsh: And as I start out is once a week enough, or do I really need to be posting more than that in order to, you know, to grow my presence there, Divya Agrawal: I would say whatever you can start with is the ideal cadence for you. So if you all you can do is once per week, then start with that. And as you go, you can ramp it up. You can then do twice per week. There’s this law. I don’t know what it’s called, but it works. When you want to start anything new, it goes like, first you just do it, then you do more of it, then you do it better, and then you add something new to it. So that’s the law that goes with everything. So first of all, just do it, then do more of it, then you do it better. So you look at okay, how can I make my posts better? How can I fix the hook a little bit so that people are intrigued about my content? How can I add some storytelling into it, make it sound better, flow better, and then you add something new. So then maybe you start experimenting with other formats on LinkedIn, like carousels or add images, or maybe videos. Rob Marsh: Okay, that, yeah, that definitely makes sense. So as I’m again, thinking about this process of how we do it in your posts. Do you specifically have a call to action in any of them where you say, Hey, I have an opening this week, or I’m taking on new clients, or if you want help with web copy or blog posts or whatever, do you ask for work? Or do you let people figure that out on their own. Divya Agrawal: Yes, I do add calls to action to some of my posts, but that’s like a call to action that’s there after they have consumed my entire post. So the entire post is not about me asking for work. It’s about maybe sharing a sample that I did for another client, and then adding some context around the project, like this is how I executed this, et cetera. And then at the end, I might say, I’m open to new projects. If you are looking for something similar, DM me. Rob Marsh: So it’s kind of a soft sell, but you’re making the invitation, yes. Okay, so obviously, this has helped you grow your business, and you’ve done it well enough that you’ve brought in other copywriters, content writers who want help from you to do this. How are other copywriters succeeding as well? Obviously, they’re following your process, but can you share, just like some examples of some of the things that they’re doing and the success that they’ve seen. Divya Agrawal: Yeah, I was on a catch up call with a bunch of freelance writers, and one of them has taken one of my content workshops, and she was sharing that a recent client that she converted came in as a lead from a post that she created after, like, learning from my workshop. So yeah, it and even, like, sometimes writers are not very open to sharing that they landed a lead or got a client like we, we all forget. We learn from people, and then we implement their systems. We move on. But when I see them posting on LinkedIn consistently, I just feel very happy that they have started showing up on LinkedIn and being visible. And yeah, I think I’m the cheerleader. I’m always liking posts from people in my network. Rob Marsh: So yeah, again, Yeah, makes sense. So earlier on, as you were telling us your story of how you got started, you mentioned that you had several struggles as your business has grown. Tell us about some of those. You know, what have the what have been the hard things about growing your business and the things that you’ve struggled with as you’ve started to find success? Divya Agrawal: Yeah, I think one of my biggest struggles has been discipline. So because this is a one person business, and if we are not disciplined, there’s literally no one to tell us to do things or not do things, so that has been one of my biggest challenges. I am so much better at it now, but I do remember a time where I had gotten a little bit lax with my marketing, and then two of my biggest clients that made up like 80% of my income, suddenly they stopped working with me in the same month, and this was during the pandemic too. So then I had to ramp up my efforts on marketing, and it takes a lot of time to build the same momentum, as opposed to if you are always consistently marketing your business. So and other little things also, like discipline shows up in all aspects of business. So, yeah, I feel like being my own boss. I kind of felt like I could get away with things, but I have discovered that that’s not true. You have to stick to processes. You have to do things consistently in your business that keep it running and keep it at a healthy growth trajectory. Rob Marsh: How much time are you spending creating content for the marketing side of your business versus the content for your clients? Divya Agrawal: I would say a couple of hours. So I when I sit for a couple of hours on a day, I’m able to create content for two to three weeks. So, yeah, okay. Rob Marsh: So what does that process look like? Because I have a feeling somebody might hear you say two hours, and that’s 15 ish posts, 15 to 18 posts. That seems like, I mean, discipline doesn’t seem like a problem at that point, because clearly you are putting out a lot of content. And so what does that writing process look like so that you can get that much stuff done? Divya Agrawal: Yeah, I would also say that I’ve been doing this for a long time, like ever since I started posting on LinkedIn in 2018 just one or two breaks that I’ve taken. Besides those, I have been consistently posting content, so there’s a lot of practice that I’ve had, but what my process looks like is that I will so I continually document what’s happening in my business. First of all, I’m always taking notes on my phone, and this is something that I also think writers have a mental block around. We think that we have to sit in a chair and spin up ideas about content from thin air, or we are like, we feel like we’re always short of ideas and we are thinking about ideas, whereas what I teach is that you need to notice content in your everyday life, in your everyday business. So anytime something interesting happens in my business, anytime I notice myself doing something differently or doing anything interesting, I make a note of it. So anytime I sign a new client, anytime a prospect says something interesting in a conversation, all of those are content ideas. Anytime you finish a project, anytime you start a project, there are things that you do in your business every day that you might think are pretty normal and regular, and you feel like everyone must do it, but we operate in very different ways as business owners, and something as regular as like how you set up your desk can be idea for content, because we all do things differently, and that can become like a point of conversation on LinkedIn. So first of all, noticing things and taking notes all week long, and then at the end of the week, probably on a Sunday evening, when I’m well rested, but also thinking about work again, I sit down for a couple of hours and I look at those notes on my phone and I flesh out those posts. So that’s also why it takes me a. A less amount of time to quickly create content. And the other thing that I do is something that I shared earlier, which is focus on one service at a time, and think about how I deliver that service, what my process looks like. I might zero in on one part of that service. So let’s say, if I want to talk about writing blog posts, I might focus on how to create unique blog post introductions, how to conclude your blog posts, or, like, how to create infographics for a blog post article. So zeroing in on a particular part of the service, sharing samples on LinkedIn about that service. All of these, yeah, give me your view. Rob Marsh: Do you repost content or reuse content that you wrote, say, last year and you and if you do, how do you change it up? Divya Agrawal: Oh, yeah, all the time I actually teach this, and I highly encourage people to repost their content. If it’s been a couple of months and you want to talk about the same service again, sometimes I just shamelessly repost it. No changes made nothing. Some other times I do, like, if I posted something last year, I might notice that I have changed my process a little bit, or I’ve added something to it, which is when I will update the post. If I shared a sample or a testimonial, I might update that to a more recent sample or testimonial from a client. Rob Marsh: Are you using AI as part of this process at all? Divya Agrawal: I am not. Rob Marsh: Are you using AI in your business at all, or it’s all your brain? Divya Agrawal: In my business? Yes, in my business, I use it to Oh, actually, in my content also, I sometimes use AI. I will tell you how. So if I want to focus on a specific service and I feel like I’m out of ideas, I will simply tell AI to give me, like, a broad range of ideas. I will just ask it a question related to that service, like, what are some of the challenges with blog post writing today, or what are the trends in blog post writing, but those will not become my content. What AI throws at me will not become my content. That will just give me things to think about, so then I can respond to something that it’s saying, instead of just again sitting there and thinking of ideas and in writing for my clients, yeah, again, I use AI to think widely about things. So I will search a topic, and then it throws a bunch of stuff at me, and then I can decide if this thing needs to be part of the narrative that I’m building for this article, or if this deserves a place, if this needs to be researched more, which is when I’ll more deeply research it and then include it in the piece. Rob Marsh: So going all the way back to when we started talking, you were a computer scientist, a programmer, but you also were a writer on the side. How did you sharpen your copywriting skills, or learn how to be a copywriter coming from the background that you came from. What are some of the things that you’ve done to continue learning? Divya Agrawal: I would say I read a lot, so I have learned from reading and observing a lot. I follow a lot of freelance writers and copywriters who do really great work. And when they post something that they have worked on, I try to see what are the different elements. I try to pick it apart essentially, and really focus on okay. They have structured this article a certain way. They have include, included these perspectives, or this is how they are building the narrative. They’ve included a lot of examples from different sources. So, yeah, I think I have learned by reading widely. Rob Marsh: And I suppose, I mean, that’s probably how I learned the most as well. You know, do you have a favorite author or book or reference that you’ve gone to? Divya Agrawal: Oh, no, I have hundreds. I could not name one, but yeah, there are a lot of writers out there who just do phenomenal work, and I’m always reading what they’re posting. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree. Divya, this has been helpful as I think about, you know, I don’t post on LinkedIn a lot. I have some guilt around that, where I feel like I should probably be there, posting, talking about some of the stuff that we talk about on the podcast, a lot the things that, you know, I teach on in the copywriter underground, and the workshops that I do there, and even. The clients that I you know, happen to be working with. So this has given me a lot of things to think about. Hopefully it’s been helpful for other copywriters who maybe struggle with the same kind of thing. You know, how do I show up in this place where there are so many clients? But I appreciate your approach to this and your advice to us. It’s been really helpful if people want to reach out to you or follow you, where should they go? Divya Agrawal: Yes, please connect with me on LinkedIn. That’s the best place. Rob Marsh: Thanks. Thanks for your time, Divya Agrawal: Divya, thank you, Rob. Rob Marsh: Thanks Divya for laying out the process for connecting with potential clients on LinkedIn. If you’re wondering what to share, go back and listen to the list of 25 things that you can write about and then do it. Use those prompts to create content for your business. Of course, if you don’t love LinkedIn, much of the advice—and those 25 topic ideas that Divya shared also work on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube and anywhere else you are showing up with content for your prospects. And if you don’t want to be in any of those places… my question for you is where are you showing up? Where are you connecting with potential clients? Because no matter how good we are as writers, there is no line of prospects out there just waiting to magically discover you. If they can’t see you somewhere, you might as well not exist.  If you want to run a service business… and copywriting is a service business… you have to do something. If you’re not going to post on social media, you need to go to events, or work your network, or respond to posts on job boards, or spend money on ads, or blog and guest blog for others in your niche, or post videos, guest on podcasts or something… you have to be out there. What Divya shared in this episode will help you do that. Don’t forget to check out the How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion