Between Iraq and a Hard Place

Kurdish History with Erik

Between Iraq and a Hard Place: Episode 62 We're back with Erik! And he shares a more thorough walk through the old history of the Kurds. Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org. Here's a Rough Transcript! Hannah: Welcome to between Iraq and a Hard Place. I'm Hannah. Colleen: And I'm Colleen. And we're here to tell you a little bit about life in Iraq. Woo hoo! Hannah: Hey, this is Hannah. I just wanted to put in a little disclaimer about this episode. The audio is not awesome. That's what happens when you try to record internationally over Zoom. So don't get distracted by the people in the background. Just pay attention to the history. All right, here we go. Welcome back to Erik. We did two podcasts with him just talking about his life in Iraq, and now we're going to talk about Kurdish history. It's just me and Erik today. Colleen's taking a vacation, so I hope I hope you're ready, Erik. Erik: Yes, I am. Hannah: Okay. Yeah. So we're going to talk about the history of the Kurds starting at the very well, I guess, the very beginning. What's the what's the earliest that we know about Kurds? Erik: Oh, I would love to have a precise answer for that. I think if, uh, to play it safe, I'm going to say very, very early. Okay. I think, uh, the Kurds like a lot of different groups that lived in these mountainous areas around Turkey, Iran, andSyria, they pop up a lot in historical records and sometimes, uh, play major roles in big, big world historical events, even though generally they're on the sidelines to a lot of those events. So, we see what some Kurdish nationalist historians would say that the Medes would be the early Kurds. So. Okay. So some would trace Kurdish lineage all the way back to the Medes. From what I've read, it's hard to prove that there's a self-conscious entity called Kurds moving through time without changing, without intermarrying, without shifting with other groups of people around those areas. But they do have a case for it as far as there's always been people living in these hard to reach regions that have been on the peripheries of empires that have resisted being kind of subsumed within bigger, stronger empires. They've always kind of sought their own independence and autonomy. So we have the history books and records go very, very early that there there have been groups of people living in these areas very much like the Kurds. And so they they'd be called by all kinds of different names, but sometimes they're called by their occupations. So, the Kurds had a long history of being, being shepherds. So sometimes they're called shepherds, sometimes they're called variations of different words sounding like Kurd, and at other times they're called by their language, which that happens later. But, there's all these terms floating around that have kind of attached to Kurdish. They've also been called very pejoratively by people that don't appreciate them. They've been called brigands and bandits. And it gives you an idea of the kind of reputation that these independent groups living in the mountains had for disrupting trade, disrupting routes of merchants and other groups that would try to get safely from point A to point B and just end up not getting there safely. Yeah. Because of these groups that would take advantage of their vulnerability. So there's always been groups there, and they've always been somewhat independent, played different sides on the kind of politics and history. And the Kurds would have been one of those. Actually, do you have any questions? Hannah: Well, I do want to clarify. When you talk about the Medes, that would be probably a reference point for most people would be like the Medes and the Persians from the Book of Daniel. Right? Hannah: Yes. The medo-Persian Empire, the Medes were early…built somewhat of an empire. And then the kind of merged or mixed, and then the Persians ended up being supreme over time. But there's a connection to some of those leaders. I need to look up which ones would have been part Mede. And so, I think if you read the history books and you go to ancient histories of these areas, whether it's in Syria, Turkey, Iran, or groups like the Elamites that are also mentioned in all over history, they're groups that basically reside in the mountains and then kind of descend upon the cities and sometimes destroy them and then go back to their ways. I should have said they've also been called nomads because they don't…haven't stayed put. You know, their are ways of life require, you know, grazing in different places with their animal. And so there have been sedentary Kurds, but there have also been the strong tribes would be the ones that are not tied to the land, but rely on others to work the land while they go on raids or other occupations. So, they pop up a lot. Yeah, yeah. Hannah: I imagine that their nomadic nature really is part of the reason it's hard to pin down. Like who are the Kurds and who are not? Erik: I think so, I think so. One book…I think it's called A People Without a State that was written by, I think, Michael Epel, which I really liked. He made a generalization talking about how important geography is to to understanding the history of different peoples. And so he would say, just as, say, the Arab peoples, uh, connected to the deserts and kind of ways of life that revolved around that kind of geography. You could say the mountains have played that same role for the Kurds or the Mediterranean, right? For the Greek world. So the mountains have played just very large in basically the way of life and their imagination of who they are and what they represent and what they are. So and you'll see that reflected in their writing, their songs and even their…even the way they speak today. The mountains loom large. So, I'm convinced that they have a long, long, long story, that's existed there for quite a while. Not always expressed in political terms, but they've always been there. Hannah: Colleen has a theory that she wants me to ask you about since she's not here…and get your opinion on. She thinks that the Kurds could be one of the lost tribes of Israel. Have you heard that? Do you have an opinion? Erik: You know, just off the top of my head, I'd have to look at what the merits are to the argument. I couldn't say. What we do know is that Kurds and Jewish people have lived side by side. And then there's been a number of intermarriages between the two groups. And a lot of Kurds would say that their great grandmothers were Jewish in different places, and you can find synagogues and across Kurdistan. So there's definitely a connection, and there's no doubt in my mind that there's been some, you know, intermarriages and stuff like that. But whether that makes them one of the lost tribes, I'm a little more skeptical of. But I haven't studied any of it. In general, I think that wherever the British people have been or Kurdish tribes have kind of been dominant. I think whatever the Jewish or Armenian minorities would have been a few levels down right from them. And you read…There's a I think there's a wonderful book called My Father's Paradise. In that book, I think they referenced that a lot of the Jewish people living in Kurdistan they would actually, this is fascinating, they would actually be the kind of merchants that would go through and sell things to the different villages as they did that. So they had, you know, networks of families in different places and moved merchandise from place to place. But because of that, a number of these Jewish merchants were also known as the storytellers because they would go from place to place and tell stories, and these house stories would spread. And so the Kurdish culture just loves stories and storytelling. So there's definitely a fascinating interplay between the two and even a certain kinship that at least expressed and if not literally just, in almost spiritual or cultural terms that they'll talk affectionately about each other. Erik: So, so you'll find the Medes playing roles in various biblical events, in the destruction of Babylon, the day of Pentecost, and in a number of other places. So fascinating, certainly. I think we more clearly see Kurds emerging from the fog. I think like during the Middle Ages, the Crusades, stuff like that, you start seeing there being kind of powerful families that arise. So you have the tribal level, but then when one tribe becomes really strong or one family becomes really strong and is able to kind of influence and by your loyalty or force, right? A whole bunch of other tribes, then then you get kind of what would eventually become like an Emirates or a Princedom where you have a now a kind of political entity that's not necessarily ethnic or national, I think, but definitely a political entity based on a family that has a lot of power. And so a famous example would be the Ayyubid dynasty, which was the Saladin's, um, family. So when Saladin, um, played his role in the Crusades across Egypt and Syria, um, what he left was the Ayyubid dynasty, a strong, strong dynasty of rulers that were Kurdish. Uh, and so these, these kind of and so the Kurds are just like a bunch of other groups that might have, um, these kind of emirate like or Princedom. Right? They emerge, but then they're subsumed or crushed within larger empires. So you start seeing those come up all around the Crusades time. And it's kind of chaotic because there's there's just a lot of different groups during that time. And so that then if I can just skip ahead because okay, so, so there's all these, all these groups, all these tribes living in this geographic, these geographical areas. And what you have are the rise of the Turks and also the Persians. And there's a religious divide between both empires. And so you'd get all those smaller entities would have to kind of pick sides or side with the one that's closest and strongest and able to compel them the most. The Kurds end up being in between both of these empires, um, that are fighting. But, uh, diplomatically, you have different Kurds who've always played a role in these bigger administrations. Right. And so there was a very, I believe his name is Idris Bitlisi. But like, okay, don't quote me on that. I may need to I may need to fact check myself later. I don't have my notes. Hannah: If you're wrong, we'll put a correction in the show notes. Erik: Yes. Hannah: You got that. Erik: So so he. Between this conflict, he rose in the Ottoman courts. He was a he was this figure that was able to kind of tour Kurdistan and convince a lot of tribal leaders on the peripheries of the Ottoman Empire that could have gone either way. He convinced a lot of families to side with the Ottomans. Part of that sort of religious reason, because they were Sunni. Right. And so there. And but also because the Ottomans were promising more decentralized arrangement with these tribes on the areas. And I think, I think at the time the Persians were a bit more, a bit more. Um, so anyway, in the 16th century, there was a big battle that was fought called battle Calderon. And that set the boundary between Persia, Turkey, and there were basically Kurdish families on both sides of that. And so some, some were more in the Persian area and many, many others were on the, um, Turkish side. And so. Yes? Hannah: Is that boundary where modern day Iraq would be now, or more towards Turkey or more towards it's Iran? Erik: Um, if you go north, I think Iraq is maybe shifted, but if you go north, it's roughly what the boundary is between Turkey and Iran. Hannah: Okay. Hannah: So the number one way that we get new people in Iraq is by other people telling them about Iraq. So maybe you're not interested in going, but maybe you know someone who is. Tell them about this podcast. Tell them about Servant Group International. It would be a big help. Erik: So anyway and so that starts this period, this kind of more modern period for the Kurds where they are, you know, there always seem to always be divided between various spheres of influence, whether it's nation states and empires or other things. There's never a full unity. But there are common ways of life. And so, uh, the arrangement is that there are… Oh. And then and then, of course, Turkey and Persia kind of compete over, uh, Iraq, uh, modern day Iraq and, um, Baghdad and uh, other cities in Iraq. So, so the arrangement between the Ottoman and the Kurds is decentralized. This is very, very common between patron client relationship is that the patron grants you certain privileges and you grant them, you give back loyalty. Uh, the patron might arm your tribe and with with the understanding that you will pay your taxes and fight for them when the time comes against their rivals. So this really works for the Kurds because they they can essentially ignore the central government most of the time and occasionally pay taxes or… it's a decentralized arrangement in which they're free to develop. Right? Hannah: Right. Erik: Okay. So this is where I think the I, the Kurdish political kind of expression starts to get more pronounced because they then have space to kind of fight amongst themselves, but then have different strong, uh, strong families arise that then arise to a higher level than tribe like a confederation of tribes, which is one family or one leader commanding many, many tribes underneath them. Right? And that functions on a decentralized level, or the empire. Eventually, these are called emirates. And these emirates get really, really strong and to the point where they can even fend off Ottoman armies that come to try to make them submit. There's a wonderful scholar named Martin Van Bruinessen, and he's written lots of articles that are for free on academia.edu. He's just one of the most fascinating writers on the Kurds, and he writes really cool stuff about this period of time and the complicated social arrangements during this time. Anyway, so they get so strong that eventually the imperial governments decide, we can't have this anymore. And so they're just, we can't control them. We need to crush them. They sent armies in. And this coincides with the time that the Ottomans realized they've got to get their act together and centralize their empire and modernize it, or else they're going to be left behind by Europe. And so they actually go and they crush these emirates, and the emirates become fragmented and they it devolves back to kind of like the lowest level of organization of tribe, which is smaller, smaller tribes with no mediating authority to kind of adjudicate their disputes. So, they become kind of anarchic again. And there's a lot of bloodshed and a lot of fighting. And so unfortunately, they created a bigger problem by having no authority or no law. But the emirate period is really important for the Kurds because this is where like these are almost semi states in which the ruler has all this wealth and resources and is able to patronize the arts, Kurdish language. And so you have a lot of these kind of writings that have been written, stories that are important for the Kurds. Those are written during this time. A lot of poetry. And so a lot of that kind of national identity that you see now was planted during that period because there was, you know, relative prosperity and an ability to create culture during during that time. Hannah: Because it's really the first time that they're, that they co-identify as like, hey, our tribe is not the only tribe that has these, these cultural things. There are all these other people too. And we can get along and we can get together. Erik: That's a good point, actually. Yeah. I think that their, um, one of their poets laments that everybody encroaches on us and divides us. And, and so there is I think there is an understanding, although it's not again, it's not a unified political understanding of who they are. But there's a linguistic, more connections, uh, are made. So even when these emirates are crushed, those cultural products, creations endure. And people have kind of rescued those from the past and use them to tell the Kurdish story in our times. So that's that's pretty cool. There's um, I'll just say this again, if people like reading, um, there's a famous Ottoman traveler named Evliya Çelebi, and he traveled through the Ottoman Empire during this period of time. And he I mean, it's incredible because sometimes he's just fleeing for his life because someone in the emirates wants to kill him or the his patron decided they didn't like him anymore. But it's super entertaining and he just it's a good historical record of a traveler who went to these places and lived under the the permission of the rulers of different places and told just great stories. And some of some of the stories are a bit fantastic and hard to believe, but it's something else. Erik: So that period of time, um, I think the Kurds, if we went way back, we'd go before Islam for the Kurds. But. Okay. Um, the Kurds eventually did become Islamic over time under these different empires. And so, so there's always been a level of there had been a level of loyalty between Kurdish tribes and the imperial center of the Ottoman Empire, um, because of religion. And so that's always been there's always been a you have the ethnic identity, but then you also have the empire, which is also united to a strong religious identity. So some of those kind of work against each other sometimes. And so at least politically. So if I were to go to the next period of time, okay, eventually there does again kind of build up some, some form of law and, uh, tract after this period of chaos. Different important. Religious families are able to eventually mediate conflict, establish law again, and become kind of influential and able to rule the Kurdish areas again. And so after this is 19th century, early 20th century, you have big groups again, and instead the Ottomans and others, instead of trying to kind of just crush Kurds, they would instead just try to pick the winners, decide will pay you to um, and will arm you. And then they those groups would then become the strongest out of the rest of the groups and be hopefully be loyal to the Ottomans. So that was a new kind of imperial policy of trying to modernize the empire. Also take take the kids of the ruling Kurdish families and have them grow up in Istanbul and learn the ways of the empire and stuff like that. So I think then because of those, those sons and daughters of these important families getting educated in the Imperial Center and reading all of what's going on with, the different nationalisms in Europe and they begin to foment their, their own sort of Kurdish nationalist. Yeah. Hannah: So it kind of backfires. Erik: Yeah. And try to promote that with, with their own families and you know, some, some tribal leaders kind of are like, that's interesting. I'll use some of this for myself, but they're not entirely nationalists. It's this kind of what they call proto nationalism. Um, World War One happens, and, um, the Kurds are not able to capitalize on the moment to get their own nation. Um, instead, they're. Hannah: The Ottoman Empire kind of falls apart at that point. Erik: Yes. Fell apart and, um, and the pieces were kind of a lot of people were trying to pick up the pieces. Yeah. So you you have Greeks, Turks, um, the French and English carving out spheres of the Middle East. And, and so the Kurds were not able to… they they weren't able to get the same kind of support, um, for their nation. Hannah: Advocate for, hey, we are a solid group. We should have our own space. Erik: Yeah. Hannah: As the Europeans kind of come in. Erik: Right. And then the there were a few treaties that seemed to suggest that they could. But then I think the real world kind of power politics came in when the Turks were able to reassert, uh, control over, over parts of Turkey. And that eventually meant that the Kurds were not able to really unite. It was it's it's a big mess. Soo anyway, once again, I guess in the 20th century, uh, you find there being a reality of Kurdish existence, a Kurdish ways of life and with a historical basis for their being on the land that they're on. But you also have the fact that they're kind of folded into now a lot of other spheres, nation states. And, you know, unfortunately, like an empire isn't just necessarily defined on ethnic lines, but like a nation state is. So they're very much losers in each of the, uh, nation states that they're put under. And they, they, they begin to be, um, suppressed on, on a language, on culture, on, ethnic grounds, whether it's Arabization policies and in Iraq or, Turkish politics in Turkey, uh, or Persian politics. So the 20th century was a really hard century for Kurds everywhere. Yeah. Hannah: Can you talk a little bit about Arabization and what that means? Erik: Um, well, I think in the context of Iraq now, I think there's there's a more complicated story to the Kurdish story in Iraq than just Arabization, because there was a number of interplay between the central government and the Kurdish tribes. And that wasn't always, um, at odds. But Iraqi politics gets more nationalistic and and goes away from monarchy towards like republic. And there were… it was kind of a tumultuous. And in 1958 there had been a lot of coup attempts by military officers that had been kind of schooled within Syria and other places in ideas of Arab nationalism. Right. And so, so any weakness on the part of the monarchy towards minority groups would really upset these nationalist officers that wanted a strong Arab state. And so there had been a lot of coup attempts. And in 1958 one succeeded and the royal family was was executed time forward there, there was only just a lot of assassinations and coup attempts successively by by successive leaders. But so the kind of that kind of politics ended up, um, much more aggressive against, you know, Kurdish separatism or Kurdish desires to be autonomous or Kurds just not wanting to play play ball with central governments. So I think Arabization this comes later during, I believe during the, the Baath Party. Um, there are certain valuable areas of Iraq like Kirkuk in which, um, that had Kurdish majority areas. And so there would be persecution of Kurds making their life difficult, or forcing families out of some of these cities and then bringing resettling Arab families from the south into cities like Kirkuk. So what you'd see is the goal over time was to make a city… shift its demographic balance from from Kurdish to Arab. And so that's super messy. Hannah: Not so much like we want the Kurds to act and behave and co-marry with the Arabs so that eventually they go away. But we don't want the Kurds to be in the city, so we're going to send them somewhere else. So we have control of this area? Erik: Yes. I don't think it's, uh, trying to dilute, like dilute or make, um, you know, make everyone intermarry. It's more thinking in terms of group and one group that policy pursued during the Saddam years. Um, but I think it was I think it was also practiced in other, other places with a strong Arab nationalism like Syria. I think the Kurds are are survivors of history. Um, they've somehow, um, clung on and been able to… it's incredible that they not disappeared. Um, right. And they have lived through some of the toughest realities of the 20th century. When it comes to warfare, towards how groups adjust to nation states and state building. Uh, they got they got some of the hardest parts of that. Um, I know we haven't talked about the some of the major things in the latter half of the 20th century. We go to the Kurds, but, um, yeah. Hannah: Yeah, I think we have some old episodes where we talked to Dave about Iraq history, where he goes into some of that more modern Kurdish history. Erik: Yeah, yeah. Hannah: From Saddam on, at least. It's always a pleasure to get to talk to you. Erik: Uh, one other thing. I, you know, I mentioned the Emirate period and then later period and, uh, spoke pretty generally. But I think one of the things I really just find a lot of joy in is that when you're dealing with a group as unique and independent as, uh, Kurdish tribes and Kurdistan, you're not you're not going to get the same sort of leader as you find other places. And so what I find is, you know, larger than life characters who are utterly unique, who are able to command with their charisma, uh, great loyalty from their followers. And it's not like you're not getting the lowest common denominator of person. You're you're getting these… just how how does this person exist? You know what? What created this person? They're so interesting. And it's really a joy to just read about them and and just admire them. So I, I recommend. Hannah: Well, we are out of time. But we'll talk to you again soon. Erik: Sounds good. Hannah: All right. Thank you so much, Erik. Bye. Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servent Group International on Facebook or Instagram, and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at ServantGroup.org. Hannah: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on, it helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next. Thanks for listening.

Car Crashes and Kurdish Culture

Between Iraq and a Hard Place: Episode 61 Part 2 of our interview with Erik about life and culture in Iraq. Also, an amazing story of how he survived a 100mph crash on a highway! Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org. Here's a Rough Transcript! Hannah: Welcome to Between Iraq and a Hard Place. I'm Hannah. Colleen: And I'm Colleen. And we're here to tell you a little bit about life in Iraq. Woo hoo! Hannah: So we talked about female and male dominated spaces when you were around Kurdish or Arabic women. Did you? How much of that tension did you feel? Was it uncomfortable? And how much of that do you think came from what you know and like women actually being like, hey, don't talk to me. Erik: So in general, I almost never speak to women publicly, that I don't know. Sure. Right. So if I'm at a restaurant and it's very natural common just to be ignored, Right. Because girls go out with girls and they you know, that's that's their time. And there is a lot of it is a bit of a dance, though, right? Because there's dynamics between, you know, the guys and the girls. Right. Even if they never speak to each other, there's stuff going on, right? Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Erik: And so and everybody's kind of very closely curating their image, through both phones, social media and presence in public spaces. So that's, I would say that. But in general, don't really get to talk or don't talk to people that I don't know. And now if I if I have students and their families, then by all means always show respect and greet, greet people publicly when you recognize them. And it's people do like to be recognized and publicly. So whether you're, you know, a guy or a girl, if you're if you're talking if you recognize someone, it's it's good to I think recognize them publicly. Tensions? You can't think of a lot of tensions that I that I've that I've felt I haven't been in too many difficult situations. I think when moving between communities. I think I felt more tension or at least been more aware because things are changing based on the community I'm working with. So I was very comfortable around Kurdish people, right? I taught, taught them, had a lot of interaction. But when I moved to Yazidis, well, that's a whole different story of, of what's, what's going on there. And then there's Christian communities, too. So I think moving between communities, it's the process of kind of learning and being just very observant, right. Of your surroundings and how your how you're treated as a guest. So being a guest is a, you know, superpower and skill that you have to develop to be a good guest. And they are extraordinary hosts, right? And that's also something we have to learn. I think think the ladies have to learn that a lot with greater detail because they'll get really judged if they're bad hosts. Right. Hannah: Yes. Erik: And and I'm people would just assume that I would be clueless about that because I'm a guy and and I'm, you know, not married. So they would just assume that I'm not able to host or cook or do anything. But so so there's differences there. But then when I was in southern Iraq, I was really on high alert because I had no idea what I was doing there. And there's other complications of, you know, having spent no time there before, and then totally different religious community that I'm working in. And then I was teaching at an all girls school where all the conservative families sent their sent their daughters so that they would have no interaction with men. So that was that. Then I was super trying to be on my best behavior, but that without knowing all the rules. In general, I think that the reason maybe I haven't felt a lot of tension is that Iraqis overlook faults a lot for foreigners and they are very generous. And if you do say something that's horribly awkward or wrong, they'll try to rectify the situation for you or it'll be left unsaid and you'll never know about what you did, right? Yeah, but everybody else will. So I've probably, you know, made many, many mistakes that people have generously overlooked. It's a real lesson in hospitality, the fact that people are not quick to take offense, but to kind of sidestep that for your sake. When I first went to Kurdistan, I definitely felt nervous around ladies because I had no idea, I expected it to be a lot more conservative than it was. Colleen: How did you see the expat community change while you were there or in the different places that you were? Erik: So I think the expat community was a lot smaller and more tight knit when I when I first arrived and and composed of a lot of a lot of families actually that had been working in the area for quite a while. So a lot of people who had a lot of context in the cities they lived in and the places they lived in. And over time there's just been so much more turnover and so much more volume of foreigners coming through. And not just Westerners, not just Americans, but people from all over. Right? Aid organizations, international aid organizations from all sorts of countries have been through. So for the place they have gotten used to seeing a lot more foreigners pass through work and leave. So I'll say like there's way less of a wow factor now when when a foreigner arrives, you might get stopped on the street. People will always want to know where you're from, what you're doing, and that that's an area of interest that will stay. But it's a little less of a novelty to society that that there'd be someone like you there working. So the kind of work has changed. There's a lot of aid that's come in. And between 2015 and 2017-18, there was just a lot a lot of organizations. Since then it's become very small again. So there's far fewer organizations working in Iraq. And and so it's becoming a smaller community again, from my observation. Those organizations are still there, but maybe they've pulled their offices out of Suly or Dohuk and maybe they have one big office in Erbil. And then they have, you know, whatever whoever their staff are will be local partners in, you know, Suly, Dohuk or any other region. And they won't actually have a lot of foreign workers in those places. And a lot of those aid organizations shifted to southern Iraq, to Mosul after 2017. Now, I'm not sure where they are. So the cities have grown a lot over those same years. A lot more shopping, a lot more malls. The cities have grown quite a bit in the last years and over let's see, yeah, over the last seven years, the biggest growth, I think in like a city like Dohuk or Erbil has been from people moving from southern Iraq into the Kurdish cities. You have lots of lots of Christians and Sunnis and some Shia groups all relocating their homes to to these northern Kurdish cities. So that's the biggest growth. Colleen: Did you find most of your friendship and community in the expat community or in other places? Erik: I think while I worked at the high schools, most of my community was my team and the students and their families, and that was a really, really wonderful experience, being so connected to families. So most of my community would not have been expats during the first years, but after, when I moved to Dohuk, that kind of flipped. Most of my community at that time were the, you know, international workers and people working in the camps and my team. And so I think some of that was a difference between maybe Suly and Dohuk, but also just having less of a foundation in Dohuk with with families. And I think Dohuk is a little bit more private of a city. So because of that, most of my community were expats in Dohuk, my own team, or non-native people in Dohuk. What I mean is not people from Dohuk. So I had a whole bunch of Christian friends from Mosul who who were displaced out of Mosul. And I'd hang out with them a lot or a lot of Yazidi friends from Sinjar or even even Syrian friends who'd come over from Syria. And now we're living in Dohuk. So basically, I found that a lot of the families who had migrated to Dohuk were up for starting friendships, right, in relationships and up for having having me over to their homes and connecting or going out. And so it just shifted because it seemed that a lot of people from Dohuk were pretty well established there. And I find that the circles of friendships go really deep, but sometimes the circles are rather small. In my case, I ended up connecting with more people from outside. That's not to say I don't know people from Dohuk, but …in general. Hannah: I noticed that more in Dohuk than even in Hawler (Erbil) that it was like they didn't know how to be friends with people outside of the friends that they kind of grew up with, because Dohuk is a little bit more village-y, and everybody that's there is there and has been there forever. And their grandparents were friends. And so there was a little bit of a like, we like you and we want you to be part of this, but we don't know.. we're not quite sure how that works. Erik: Yeah, I'd agree because I think the people in Dohuk are very, very respectful people. They treat you very courteously wherever you go, generally. But the, you know, the how you connect and be friends. That's a different question. And I think that that's, you know, a testament to actually, up until recently, it has been a very small place with not a lot of foreigners there. So it's understandable that that's kind of an adjustment. Also there they have a, you know, a long history and, you know, deep, deep connections to families and neighbors and very close with cousins and siblings and big families. So if you think about it, they have a very rich social life already, right? Hannah: This is the middle, the middle of the podcast where we interrupt ourselves to tell you things. And the only thing I really want to tell you is that you should go to Iraq because it's awesome and we'd love to get you there. Colleen: Did you have a favorite food while you lived in Iraq? Erik: I think the best food in Iraq is home food. And again, I didn't spend much time in people's homes. So, but actually, I love Dolma, Yaprax, and there's some some meat dishes that I really like. I really like Koozi, which is like this slow cooked lamb over rice. That's just very tender and delicious. They've got a lot of good food. Colleen: So if you ever go out at night with with the guys and do the Serupe, the head and foot soup. Erik: Definitely did do that. Yes. And actually, it tastes really good. So. If you can get past the description, I, I kind of liked it. Colleen: Great. Did you have any favorite adventures or experiences? Erik: Oh, man. Let's see. I mean, of course. But there's just. There's just a lot to choose from. I think I did survive a high speed taxi crash on a highway. And I've gotten I've gotten a lot of mileage out of that story over the years. Should I should I go there? Colleen: Yeah, you should. Hannah: Tell a story. It's a good one. Erik: Well, it was I was on my way to to get a flight out of the country for Christmas to meet a cousin in Germany. I got in a cab between Suly and Erbil to get there, and it was. It was a full cab. So I was in the back middle seat with no seat belts. The back seat almost never has seat belts. And the two people in the front did have seat belts. So we were going and he just when it came to the, you know, straight straight portion of the highway between Kirkuk and Erbil, he just started going so fast. And I think when I last looked at the speedometer, we were going 160km an hour somewhere, somewhere near like that's I think that's about 90. [It's actually closer to 100mph.] But eventually somebody tried to cut us off and we lost control of the car. And we, we slid into the divider of the highway and crashed into it and flipped over. And then the vehicle started rolling across the the oncoming lanes of traffic. And as we are rolling, my door bends off the car and then I fall out of the car with the two two other guys. So this all happened very fast. Uh, the next thing, the next thing I was aware of was that I was out outside of the car, face down in a field, and I had all this, like, kind of moist dirt in my mouth. And so I guess I wasn't aware of whether I had legs or not or whether the car was on top of me or what what was going on. But so I just thought figured I just lay there. And when I when I looked over, there was another guy face down and then to my left and the other guy on my right was in the same position. But I just look at them and they just they just hopped on their feet immediately and just kind of like casually, like brushing off the the dirt from their clothes as if like, nothing had happened. So we work perfectly fine. I had we miraculously landed on a field with with moist dirt between Kirkuk and Erbil. And I stayed there just a little longer laying down because I didn't want to hurt anything. And while I was there, somebody like picked up my glasses and brought it over to me and someone else picked up my phone that had flown out and brought it to me. And by that time, I finally did get to my feet and the car was totaled. So it was a it actually was a bit emotional. Once when I called my parents, when I called my parents, that's when the kind of release came. It wasn't I hadn't realized how much tension I had in my body, but I went over to the taxi, got my stuff out, and somebody else offered me a ride and I got in the next cab and made it to Erbil to get my plane on time to make Christmas with my cousin. Hannah: Um, no major injuries or? Erik: I was really sore. My ribs were really sore, but, um, I mean, not a scratch, really. Not a scratch. Physically. Colleen: Your glasses and your phone were both fine. Erik: Everything was fine. And the other. The other thing about that, which was funny as I was driving away, which is a very, very Kurdish thing, the the other taxi driver that offered me a ride as we were driving away, he kept on looking back at me in the back seat and trying to explain that he had seen everything and just to simulate it, he would yank his steering wheel back and forth just to show that he saw that what happened to our car? So, um, and I realized after the fact that as we rolled across the highway, I involuntarily screamed just this involuntary thing out of my body, and no one else made a sound. So, I was a little embarrassed after that. I was the one that couldn't just, you know, just take it silently. But that was that was that was amazing. I've had a lot of funny experiences in in people's offices. Anyway, I'm really grateful that was. Yeah. That that story didn't end badly. Hannah: Oh, my goodness. Erik: Other important, other fun things. I think if you're in Kurdistan, there's so many cool places to go. So I loved going to Lalish, which is the Yazidi, most important Yazidi temples and then going to Korek mountain and, you know, being up in the mountains in the snow and getting a renting a cabin there. But there's there's a lot of cool, historic things to do in Kurdistan and have a lot of good memories of going there with friends and teammates. There's a lot to see. Colleen: What do you miss most? Erik: Um, like, I really like walking through cities and I like that Dohuk was really walkable, and it's neat because in a small place or in a place like that, people really get to know you everywhere you go. And so it's even though it's not a small town, Dohuk, I mean it's a big city. But but everywhere you go, it's like you're known and you have these little personal relationships with every little shopkeeper and every place you go. And if you're coming from a city in America, that might not be an experience you have often, but it actually does fulfill something in your heart, I think, to have all these little connections and to be placed right, even if there's some discomforts from being an outsider. There's a lot of little things that I appreciate about it. And so I lived for a while. I lived above a mish mish, which is a sweet shop that delivers cakes and sweets all over Dohuk. And in the morning sometimes I just go downstairs and help them, you know, set the tables or just sit down and, you know, just a lot of just very familial kind of casual friendships where you just you just hang out. And I do really miss that. Yeah, I missed the hikes as well. There's a lot of cool places to hike in Kurdistan, and it's a real fun activity to go, you know, put some food together and go up a mountain and spend a morning up there. And I miss people, of course. I miss them. Colleen: Of course. That was assumed already. Hannah: Yes. Erik: Yes. Hannah: Well, we've talked some about reverse culture shock coming from Kurdistan back to the US. What's it like for you going back to Mexico? What things are like, wow, this has really changed? Or just, because it's been a long time since you've lived in Mexico, right? Erik: I'm like 18 years. Hannah: Wow. Okay. Yeah. Erik: Yeah. So I think to back up, I didn't have a lot of culture shock when I moved to Iraq, and I credit that partially because of my background here in Mexico. Some something about that wasn't completely, totally foreign to me. So I can't say that I feel a lot of reverse culture shock either. It's really nice to step back into Mexico and I've desired to do that for many years. I think that whatever the shock is, it's just because of it's it's a life life transition, right? And so taking on a new job or stuff like that. But Mexico is a very warm culture as well. And so I've actually the city I'm living in right now reminds me of Dohuk. It's surrounded by mountains. It's super small and walkable and people are rather conservative. So like, you know, people are glancing in my shopping cart, you know, inspecting my items, you know, as I'm in the lines, you know, there's like not a lot of personal space. And so there's a lot that reminds me of of Iraq. And I'm actually I'm actually really enjoying it but it feels a little more like home. So I am an outsider in the new city. I didn't grow up in northern Mexico, so that means I am there's a lot of cultural things that I'm having to learn here because it's just there's a lot of different differences between North and South. So yeah, um, I'm still kind of learning things culturally. I don't know if that's a good answer to the question. Colleen: But it makes sense. I mean, I felt like some of those things that for me, moving to Nashville, culture shock or reentry was eased in some part by the fact that the South is such a different culture than where I grew up. It was easy to treat it as, Oh, this is just another foreign country, rather than like recognizing all the things that were different from where I grew up or that, you know, it wasn't how I experienced it growing up. Erik: I'd say the other I think maybe I'm just fortunate that the place that I have landed here has a really kind of tight knit special community and they're very hospitable. So it's it's not like I'm starting out as a stranger. And and so I think I would feel I would feel the loneliness probably a lot more if I were starting out, like in a new place completely alone. Right. That's really nice. Hannah: Your Spanish is all coming back to you? Erik: Well, well, yes and no. I think, you know, after so I am a native and fluent speaker, but there's a lot of work to do, let's just say. And people do make fun of me. That's nothing new! Hannah: You have like Kurdish words come to mind instead of the Spanish one or I mean you got a lot of languages floating in there. Erik: Oh, man. You know, I know in Kurdistan I would certainly sometimes Spanish would be it wouldn't be an issue until I spoke to someone on the phone in Spanish. And then the next day in class I'd mix in some Spanish. Um, but actually, no, there are Kurdish expressions that come to my mind when living life. And I hope I hope that's always the case. I want it to be with me forever. So. And if I lose it, I have to go back to Kurdistan and get some more. Yeah. Colleen: We've taught our roommates over the years several Kurdish phrases that are still a part of our lives. So yup. Hannah: And we we frequently ask each other like, "What time is it?" in Kurdish, because it's easier to think of it that way than in English, which is bizarre. Erik: But yeah, I think with at least with my even with my siblings, we grew up speaking English to each other inside the home, right. And Spanish in other places. But, but now when I reconnect with siblings, we basically speak in Spanish. And what that says to me is that this is the time that we shared together. Right. And the place that we shared most of our lives together. So speaking of Spanish cuts past everything else and goes right to home. Right. And so I think it's an unconscious thing, but that's what that's a way of being kind of close to each other. And so I think that's I could do that with, you know, teammates from Kurdistan too, you know, a little a little Kurdish word here and there brings back a lot. Hannah: Yeah. Well, thanks for talking to us. Colleen: Yeah, thanks for giving us your time. Yeah. Erik: Sure thing. Very, very nice to talk to you. Colleen: We'll have to touch base again with some stories from Kurdish history. Erik: Okay. Colleen: And or Kurdish myth, maybe. I don't know which where those stories all fall, but it'd be fun to have you share some of those stories with us. Erik: I definitely need to polish up and get some student consultants. Hannah: There you go. Erik: To help me out with that. But yeah, I'd love to. Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servant Group International on Facebook or Instagram, and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at ServantGroup.Org. Hannah: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on. It helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next. Thanks for listening. Erik: Excuse me. ACHOO! Hannah: Bless you! Erik: Edit that out. Hannah: It's going to go in the end, the bloopers part.

Being a Single Guy in Iraq

Between Iraq and a Hard Place: Episode 60 Hannah and Colleen interview our friend and teammate, Erik, about his life and experiences teaching and living in Iraq as well as his studies of Kurdish history and culture. Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org. Also, here's a link to the book Erik recommends in the show! (https://www.amazon.com/Kurdistan-Global-Stage-Kinship-Community/dp/0813563526) Here's a Rough Transcript! Hannah: Welcome to Between Iraq and a Hard Place. I'm Hannah! Colleen: And I'm Colleen. Hannah: And we're going to tell you about our life in Iraq. Colleen: It's going to be fun. I hope so. Hannah: Uh, we have our first international podcast, Colleen. It's very exciting. Colleen: That is exciting. Hannah: We're going to talk today to our good friend Erik. Erik served with us in Iraq for many years, seven, seven ish years. Um, and he started the same time as me. So we've been in this for a long time. Not as long as Colleen, but we're trying to catch up. Um, so Erik grew up in Mexico, and that's where he is currently. He lived in Suly and was on a team with you. And then he was in Dohuk with me for a little while and then has also done some stuff in Southern Iraq as well. And so we're just going to talk to him about his life in Iraq, because we're not men, so we don't know what it's like there for men. Colleen: You have a unique perspective. Hannah: Yeah. Thank thanks for coming, Erik, or thanks for being there and recording with us. Erik: Well, really happy to be here and to have been there with you. Colleen: We thought we might make you try to tell us which of our teams you actually enjoyed being on more, but we decided that you're really nice and that wouldn't be fair to you. So we're not going to ask you that question. Erik: I would say something very even and diplomatic. Colleen: Yes, because you are diplomatic and we appreciate that. Hannah: Yeah. So I guess our first question for you, which is our first question for everybody who works for SGI, is how did you how did you hear about SGI? How did you get started with us? Erik: So I would have heard about SGI actually somewhere in middle school or high school. I'm not sure if I would have actually put together that it was SGI, but I began hearing people that my parents knew talk about it, specifically Jerry Brown. So I was aware of work in Iraq and that there was a group in Nashville working in, in the Kurdish region. And, and I kind of slowly pieced piece things together from there. I think I heard a lot more about it right as I was getting ready to leave college. And that was because Jerry contacted me very directly and said, hey, consider consider SGI. And, they're amazing. Hannah: Yeah, that's great. You got that real personal contact. Colleen: So was Jerry the main reason you chose SGI or Iraq or like, what kind of got you the rest of the way, right? Erik: So I hadn't been shopping around for like, organizations as I was just I had studied Middle East history and I had a general interest in the Middle East. And really it was Jerry's personal note and kind of right at the right place at the right time, right as I was about to start the job hunt. And and he he basically said that SGI and Iraq and Kurdistan are would be a really, really good first entry into the Middle East And to getting a sense of whether that was something for me or not. And he gave me examples and we really had a good relationship. So the fact that he kind of vouched and then provided a personal connection with with the director of SGI, that really helped me. And as soon as as soon as we actually spoke directly, that then it was almost it was settled very quickly that this was a this was an organization I could work with and that I could respect. Yeah. Hannah: So what did the interview application process look like for you? Like I lived close enough that I could come for an interview. How did you how did you do that one? Erik: I think I was not in person. I did submit an application. I remember that. I can't remember what I wrote, but it was a it was a Skype call with Dave, and I think I did that the day after I graduated from college. So it was yeah, it was on a beach, actually, and I interviewed with Dave, so. Hannah: That's fantastic. I guess I also didn't know that you had done Middle Eastern history for college. Was there like when you were doing that, was there a specific country or people group in the Middle East that you were like, Yeah, think this is what I want to do? Or were you just kind of open? Erik: It was a general personal and academic interest of mine to get into Middle East studies and history. And I had an incredible professor at the university that really mentored me in studying Middle Eastern history. And I wasn't I wasn't sure. On moving to the Middle East or ever working, working there. But it just happened to come together as an opportunity right at that point. So I wasn't honed in on Iraq, but actually because there was some family history in Iraq, though. So that was in the background. My dad went to, left Mexico and went to the Kurdish region in 1992, right after the first Gulf War and right after Saddam Hussein's kind of big take back of land and kind of retribution on people who rose up against him during the Gulf War. And so he went on a on a project to dig water wells in different Kurdish villages. And he spent a few months in the country. And he came back with with all kinds of stuff, with Kurdish clothing, with literal machine gun bullets and all kinds of cool things to show me and stories. And he was so moved that he had actually considered moving our family out there to continue living there. It didn't work out that way. But from that was around when I was seven years old. So I was aware of some part of the Kurdish story from way back. And so and that was always in the background. So I can put it together now that that was that was something leading me there. Hannah: Yeah. Colleen: Yeah. What you're saying is we got to start recruiting with the the first graders. Erik: Yes. Hannah: Oh, man. That's going to be… Colleen: I mean, that's kind of what I trace some of my story back to as well, is like having a map of Iraq on the back of our door and looking at all the places mentioned in the news. Erik: And yeah, and it helps having, you know, some little family story that you can tell when you're first getting into Iraq and meeting people. And it really it's really served me really well to have a story connecting my dad to Iraq and basically saying that, you know, it runs in the family. You know, yeah, I got this from my dad. Colleen: So can you tell us a little bit about some of the different roles and projects you were a part of while you lived in Iraq? Erik: Sure. I so the first time I went, I was I hadn't studied education, but I went in as a middle school teacher. So I got to teach. I think the first my first year, I taught eighth grade history and literature, 11th grade health and economics. Yes. And let's just say. Hannah: What an interesting combination! Erik: You can guess which one was a stretch for me. But the but I loved teaching humanities classes and I ended up teaching, I think, a ninth grade history and literature as well. And then some some 12th grade, a 12th grade class as well. And then so, yes, for a few years I was doing the high school and middle school work. Then I very briefly taught at the American University in their academic preparatory program. So the program that gets students up to the level to be admitted into the American university. And then I was out of the country for a time. And then 2014, 2015, during the ISIS takeover of parts of Iraq and the displacement of Yazidi communities and other minority communities in the country. I spoke to SGI again and a project came up to do schools for displaced children in Yazidi camps right outside of Dohuk. And up until that time I'd only worked or lived in Suly, but that just seemed like the right thing to do. So I moved to Dohuk and helped get that project going as a technically project manager. And so I, I helped facilitate two schools in that camp with all with Yazidi students. But as Sinjar, the city that they're from, is run by two different education systems. So we we actually put two schools in one and ran it ran the two schools on different shifts. So that was a real education of how education works from a different perspective. And it was a real privilege to be able to do that with SGI. Colleen: And it was a really neat school area and you guys were able to accomplish that really fast from what it seemed like, things normally run in the speed. Erik: It was it was remarkable. Yeah. And probably, you know, some of that's the country in crisis. But but we also just had so much so much blessing and favor in the eyes of all the authorities to be able to navigate that. And so I was shocked. I was shocked by that. But it was also it was so encouraging. Yeah. To just just to see that school go up so, so quickly and then to see it fill up immediately with students. It was a really big deal. And yeah, that was an unforgettable time. Hannah: Yeah. So I was living in Dohuk at the time and teaching at CSM and our students sponsored, I think you guys got them going on putting together backpacks for the students in the camp, which was an amazing part.. way for me to feel involved in that project. And our students too. And yeah, opening opening day, we we brought a bunch of our high school students and did all of that. And, you know, it was a great way to get our students who are upper middle class and upper upper class involved in that refugee and IDP situation in a way that they think had been a little bit afraid to do before. Erik: It was really I think it was really interesting to have yeah… become a link to for our students connecting to to those communities. It actually turned out to work out to actually students Colleen and I had taught in Suly who graduated out of CSM and went to university, their universities contacted us to do volunteer projects and a lot of those students came all the way from Suly to our school without our really, you know, orchestrating it. It was just the fact that that relational contact was there that allowed them to volunteer at the camp. So that was really sweet. Colleen: That's so cool. Hannah: Yeah. Did you feel like your time having already lived in Iraq and you got your Kurdish studies master's at that in the in between time, so you know, you weren't wasting your time by any means. How much do you feel like that helped you with those connections and overcoming some of the the cultural weirdnesses? Erik: So that's a good question. And it's hard to answer. I think that… Okay, so my sequence of living in Iraq first and then doing a degree in it, I think was really good because that you need some grounding in reality. Right? And what you know isn't necessarily what's true for all times of, of of the groups and people in Iraq but that grounding in in the Middle East and the sense of how culture works just from your own personal immersion in it really is an important foundation, especially if you're not a native from Iraq. So that immediately, like if I had gone into it without that, that would have been a problem. I would have been lost. But then the, you know, Middle East Studies, Kurdish studies, it was helpful because it gave me a broader knowledge of where the discussions are and related to, you know, history, ethnography, anthropology of, you know, Kurds, Yazidis, communities in Iraq. So it was really helpful to get a broader exposure to literature from from people who have studied this and also I felt that it really helped get it giving more of an ethnographic basis, ethnographic basis to knowledge. So there's a lot of there's a lot of good ethnography that's been done on Iraq and the communities there. And so the fact that we're working with displaced Yazidis communities from from Sinjar, I think that really did provide me a lot richer context to kind of be aware of what I was… who I was working with. Right. So you can't go wrong, you know, doing a little research and reading. But but I think that personal exposure to to the cities and communities in Kurdistan, that was really helpful to get first. Hannah: Yeah. Because you didn't have to overcome some of the like how do we get around and how do we communicate and you already had that right. Erik: And just just a sense, I think. Just a sense of actually knowing the rhythm of life within your own sensory experience, right? If you have that, you'll be thrown by so much less or you won't be thrown as much. If you've been exposed, like your senses have been exposed to life. And so going back that second or third time, I'm able to deal with other kinds of conflicts because those small living ones, those are already settled. So, you know, you're already kind of at home. Hannah: So the number one way that we get new people in Iraq is by other people telling them about Iraq. So maybe you're not interested in going, but maybe you know someone who is. Tell them about this podcast. Tell them about Servant Group International. It'd be a big help! Colleen: So as you did do that studying, what… did it change the way you saw Kurds or the way you saw Kurdish culture or how things functioned there? Was there anything that gave you like, Oh, that's why that functions that way or… Erik: Well, I think it gave, because the at least the degree I took was, you know, academic so it tries to stay above the fray of, you know, identity arguments or, you know, which which national arguments are correct. So it provides a little bit of distance. And I think as a guest in any culture, you need to develop that distance anyway, right? So that you're not completely a partisan in conflicts that have nothing to do with you. Hannah: Right. Erik: So I think it helped me, I think maybe be a little wiser with things I might, you know, knowing the relationships between ideas and families and all of that, you still pick that up living, living there anyway. But I think, you know, a lot of people make claims about history and so it just made it more complicated because with any history that's thousands of years old. Right. It's hard to make really, really strong, definitive claims. I don't want to offend anyone. Or it did make me appreciate all the stories I have heard. Right. And so and I really love jumping into stories and where people where they get their stories, who they get them from, how those stories have been inherited over time. And that's one of the kind of joys of being among Kurds and Yazidis and all the other groups is that they have so many amazing stories and it's really fun to get into those. Hannah: I think we're going to maybe have to do a whole podcast where you get to tell us some of those stories because I now want to know. Yeah, and we did a… we did a brief series on Yazidi mythology and theology. So if you don't know who the Yazidis are, go listen to those episodes. They're great. Well, I think they're great because I did all the research, but they'll they'll fill in some of the gaps there. Is there anything that you learned in in those studies that was like a surprise that you didn't already have some inkling of? Erik: So, yes. I think there was other than like little historical moments that I wasn't aware of, I think Iraq is very, very much… It's all about the village, Right. And so things are things are very local and people's attachments and sense of place is really, really important. So people who've done fieldwork in these villages and have done observations and talked and developed relationships over many years, have a lot of valuable things to share. So I think I read a book by Diane King called Kurdistan on the Global Stage, and I was really surprised by her providing a a richer layer of context to things that you might just assume are really simple concepts like, say, honor, shame, you know, honor, shame is really important. Well, it is, but why is it important and what makes it meaningful? Right. And so so I think reading her observations about how kinship works in families, you know, how how gender works, marriages, connections between families and lands and then and inheritance. Right. How how identity is passed down through fathers right to their children and how how all three of those interplay right to create a rich honor culture. And so I would have generally thought, okay you got to respect people because honor is an important thing here. But but actually, there's all these other relationships that make it really important and make you understand the why. Right? And it's you step into another culture and you sometimes we're tempted to make assumptions that this does not make sense. This just does not make sense. Right. To to your framework, but actually it's profoundly meaningful. Colleen: Yeah. Erik: Everything you see. And so some of this literature really has brought out a lot more, giving me more, more of a framework for the meaning of the place, right. And what I'm trying to navigate there. So yeah, I just make that plug for that book, but also to always be just developing questions and asking questions because there's just… I think it'd be a shame to go all that way to Iraq and leave, not like with just a richer appreciation for what you what you've been in the middle of. Which is really special. Colleen: Well, we can definitely link that book in the show notes. You mentioned honor, shame and relationship to gender and marriage. And so some of our questions definitely have to do with some of the gender differences and the way those affect your life versus, you know, the way they affected our lives. Did you enter any spaces that were like obviously male or female dominated? And how did that make you feel? Erik: So yes, I did. So what I say is like my experience, right? I wouldn't basically try to paint with too broad a brush. But so generally I mean, just as a general thing, I think the the home is very, very much family space and female space. Right. So so I my whole time in Iraq, I've been a single, single guy. And so as a general rule I don't spend much time in homes. In fact, it's very, very rarely do I go into someone's home. If someone does invite me over, they're probably a really good friend. And the fact that if I if I do go into the home sometimes I probably either just very briefly say hi to the mother or sisters, but they're probably in another room and they come out and serve us some tea or food and then go out again. So that's just it's just a space that, you know, single guys aren't in. If you are, if you had a family, that'd be a different story. So as a single guy, most of the time I'm out in public in cafes and restaurants and going on picnics or going up to different sites with friends or going to places to play games with other guys like me. So that would be the closest to like a female dominated space. And my like, you know, female colleagues actually spend quite a lot of time at homes and they get to spend the night at homes and they they get, you know, almost I'm almost envious of how much access they have. They might feel more restricted. Right. But actually, I see that there's a lot more liberty in some of their relationships with with families than than I could ever have. Colleen: Yeah. I can see that. Erik: Now if I'm in public, you know, there's a lot of interaction between men and women. It's, it's not like it doesn't happen, especially if you're colleagues at schools universities there's, there's plenty of interaction. But that's… the space is different. And now if you go into an office, a government office, you could also go into an office with, you know, a woman sitting in the most important seat. Right? But you'd be wrong to think that's a female dominated space, right? The question it would be. Okay, whose daughter is she? Right. Who what are her relationships? Right. That connect her to this position. And more often than not, they'll be, you know, some family important family relationship that's not disconnected from male leadership. Right. It's not not saying there's no not a meritocracy or that there's people aren't good at their jobs. It's just that the assumption that, okay, she's in an important position, therefore it's a female dominated space would be different, right? Yeah. So most most public spaces are male spaces. Right? And you'll see that even in how the layout of things are laid out in, in restaurants and other places, the family space or the female space is a little more removed the more public space is where all the all the men are sitting. And this I mean, we could talk and talk and talk about this. I think you're you don't you never get away from what you are as a as a man or a woman in in these places. You're always interpreted that way so you have to… I think that's part of the nuances of working there over time as you get used to like making these judgments yourself and realizing just how much is going on, right? It's really easy to live there and not really think about what's going on. But the longer you're there, the more you see it. It's actually kind of nice. There's I'd say that most of my friendships are male friendships, though. Hannah: Yeah. And I think we would say that most of our friendships are female friendships and that's just the way that it is. I think it's easy for us as women to get frustrated with the freedom that we see our our male teammates have. But yeah, I hadn't really thought about how you guys don't get invited into people's houses and it makes total sense to me why it is that way. But yeah, I think most of my my team time was with families or other single women, but always wanted to know what is it like in those cafes that only men can go in? Erik: What do you mean? Hannah: Like. Like what? What do you guys do in there? Erik: Oh, man, it's… I actually miss it. Um, so I think it's, you know, it's just. Well, it's really a lot of guys on their phones and smoking, right? And, um, and watching, watching sports or music videos. Colleen: And you miss it? Erik: Playing, playing sports, or cards, or backgammon. Um, but, but that's not the aspect that I miss, but it's, it's the fact that you can just sit with a group of people over a long period of time and you don't have to… The conversation does not have to be interesting you can just sit there and then you can you can laugh, you can talk, you can go silent. It's just it really it's just about being with your friends and and in Iraq, you know, wherever you go in Iraq. Friendship is just such a high value. And the there's there's quality of friendship. There's depth of friendship. There's a lot of expectation with friendship, right? So you end up spending just a lot of time with people that consider you a friend. And so there's something there's something unique about that and really special about that. Once you've been in it. It can be exhausting. But it's also really it's really sweet so… Colleen: I mean I think that's kind of a lot of what the time for women in the homes looks like is that same. Hannah: Just less smoking, Colleen: Yeah, less smoking. Colleen: Yeah, but the same sense of just being together and that that is enough to grow your friendship without having some grand deep sharing or like something that you've accomplished or like any other thing than just presence. Erik: Totally. Yeah. I'm trying to think what else goes on. I mean, just a lot of, lot of talking. So and that's the other thing. I think the number one form of entertainment is talk so people talk and talk and talk and it's just a form of entertainment and so it's it's a lot of fun. Hannah: Are the men gossipy this this may or may not make it into podcast Erik: O for sure. Hannah: Yeah. Erik: Yeah. Oh I think so yeah they talk about all kinds of stuff. Probably. I wonder though. I'm not going to say that if you're in a cafe, sometimes the talk can go deep, but a lot of times it's surface level. Right? And if you're with with another friend somewhere else, it might be, you know, because people are always weighing who's around them and how they speak. And so trust can be low in a in a super public place. You know, you always have to be mindful of how you speak about your friend because you don't want to hurt your friend's, um, image or reputation. So I think, you know, a super public space lends itself to a little bit more surface level talk. Not to say you can't have good conversations in those places, but if you really want to have a, you know, deeper conversation, you might or more personal, you might need to be around a few little less people. And I imagine that in the home that's different. I think I think ladies would go deeper, faster within the privacy of the home. Colleen: Provided you have the language skills. Erik: And language skills. Yes. Yeah. Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servant Group International on Facebook or Instagram and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at servantgroup.org. Hannah: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on, It helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next. Both: Thanks for listening. Hannah: But it's okay. I know that the Suly team was better, and it doesn't hurt my feelings. It's totally fine.

Parks and Rec Iraq Department

Between Iraq and a Hard Place: Episode 59 Hannah and Colleen embark on the many uses of the Iraqi Kurdish Park and the many varieties of Recreation available in Kurdish parks. There's workout equipment, food carts, fairs, amusement parks, roller skating, strange statues and more! Come take a walk with us through our favorite and least favorite parks in Northern Iraq. Learn more over at www.ServantGroup.org and email Hannah with questions at hannah@servantgroup.org. Here's a rough transcript of our episode! Hannah: Welcome to "Between Iraq and a Hard Place." I'm Hannah. Colleen: And I'm Colleen. And we're here to tell you a little bit about life in Iraq. Hannah: Woo hoo! Today we're going to talk about something that would make Leslie Knope very happy if she was a real person and, B, she cared about international parks at all. Colleen: Okay. Hannah: You don't know who Leslie Knope is, and that's okay. It's from a show called Parks and Recreation. Colleen: Right. That's what you said you wanted to name this episode was "Parks and Rec." Hannah: YES! And so we're going to talk about parks, less about recreation, although there is inevitably recreation at parks. Colleen: I mean, the parks were definitely made for recreation. Hannah: Yes. I was thinking more like community programs. Colleen: Oh, yeah. Not that kind of rec. There's no rec center with, like, community soccer teams or anything. Hannah: Art programs. Colleen: No, not now. Hannah: Yeah, but parks are a big part of Kurdish city life. Because as we've talked about before, Kurds really like to be outside in the green when it's green or at least outside. Colleen: Yep. And picnics and having space outside which most of their homes if you remember back to episode one, don't have because everyone has a garage and like a courtyard, most people don't have lawns. Right? Hannah: Or even like garden gardeny tree areas. Colleen: If they do, they're real small. So parks are essential. Hannah: Yeah. And I feel like most neighborhoods have a park of some kind. They're usually pretty small. I think the smallest one I've ones I have seen are about the size of a house, a house in that neighborhood, like the lot that a house would be on would be about the size of the park. Colleen: Right. My neighborhood was mostly pretty new and still kind of being built. So we didn't actually have a park at first. And then, yeah, one was put in and it was probably about the size of three homes. It was really just a strip of green. Hannah: Yeah. Like, here's some grass. Colleen: Yeah, some lights, a bench. Hannah: I feel like the park that I went to the most in Dohuk was within walking distance of our house. And it was, it was actually a fairly not big, big. But it was a fairly large neighborhood park. It was probably probably the size of maybe a city block there. And it had a big sidewalk, essentially, that was kind of everybody came and walked around and there were some small trees and bushes and stuff. But it was it was it was mostly just grass. Colleen: Yeah. Occasionally some will have a piece of, like play equipment. Hannah: Or exercise equipment. Colleen: That's my personal favorite is that the exercise equipment generally becomes play equipment. Hannah: Yeah. Like, I had an apartment complex that I lived in for a very short while that had a little patch of grass and a playground and exercise equipment. But the exercise equipment I only ever saw get used by the kids. Colleen: Right. One of the bigger and more well known parks in the city that I lived in is called Azadi Park. It means Freedom Park, and it's the site of some horrific things. But it was next to one of Saddam's old prisons and like it is both a Memorial and Park. And it's huge. Yeah, at least for four there it was really big and we would go there and walk because it has a big, wide path around the whole outer edge. And along one portion of the path had exercise equipment set up and kind of like I don't think I've ever seen exercise equipment like this in the US anywhere. It's all like bodyweight resistance, maybe hydraulic pressure stuff all sunk into the concrete, a lot of spinny things. Hannah: Do they have like the they're kind of like an elliptical, like, you stand on it, your arms go back and forth. That was one that I saw pretty typically. But yeah, then they have the ones where you're like, supposed to like, twist your body. Colleen: Right. And it's like a little platform that you stand on. Hannah: A standing ab workout kind of thing. Colleen: And then like ones that you sit in and push with your feet like a leg press kind of thing. Hannah: Yeah, I don't know that I ever saw that. Or maybe I saw it and didn't know what it was for, because that's the other thing. They don't have any instructions on them. Colleen: Right? You're just kind of guessing. Yeah. Hannah: Yeah. The kids would get on the elliptical ones, one on each, like one kid on each foot, foot place and swing back and forth on them, which was really amusing to me. I was like, Yeah, I mean, that seems fun. Colleen: I did occasionally see men actually working out on them, but that was only really early in the morning when we would go to the park. It was the one place in the city where again, really early in the morning women could run or bike or exercise. And so we would go like 5:00 in the morning. I mean, it was also cooler then. It was only like 90 or 95 degrees. So we would go and some of us would walk and some of us would run. We met up with a bunch of other women there for a while. Hannah: Yeah, there was a big park like that in Erbil that we always just called Sami Park. It has a big long Arabic name after some person, and it was pretty big. I'd say the there's a walking track sidewalk that goes all the way around the perimeter of it. That's probably a half a mile all the way around. We went there for Newroz sometimes because there are picnics, you know, raised doing picnics in the park. They have a little like, tram that you can ride around. That's just like some guy driving like, like the trams that they use in Disney parking lots to get you to and from your car. Driving one of those around and it's like 1000 dinar to ride it and he'll take you all the way around the park. And we did that one night, one evening that we went, I don't remember why we were there in the evening, I think we were celebrating somebody's birthday and they did a nighttime picnic and there were lots of fireworks and super crowded at night. And every time I've been back there, when I go back now, like you can barely get down the street that it's on. I mean, it borders-- It's got four streets all the way around it two main arteries of the city and then two side streets. And they're always full of cars because there's no parking lot for it. Right. Because until recently, almost everyone got there via taxi because they didn't have their own cars. Colleen: Right. Hannah: But yeah, that was a big. A big deal. And like the park that everybody knew about. Colleen: Yeah, that's definitely the same way people saw Azadi Park. Keep wanting to call it Parki Azadi because that's what they called it there. But they had a roller skating area and a pond and a kind of an amphitheater little section, depending on the day and the time of day. And especially if there was something going on in the evenings, there would be the little carts out with food. And that's also where they've more recently hosted like international food festivals and the international markets and some different stuff where people from a bunch of different places come together and do stuff. And yeah, it's the place where you go for an inexpensive party or wedding. I went there for a picnic once. For a wedding. I was where everybody went after the the photos and the all the pieces of the party. Hannah: Yeah, there's another park in Erbil that's closer to the Citadel. I don't remember the Kurdish name for the park, but it, like, was translated to us as like Peace Park. Colleen: Oh. Ashti? Hannah: Maybe. Colleen: There are multiple words for peace. Hannah: Yeah, I don't remember exactly. It had like a historical museum in the middle of it. That was like they had taken concrete to try to make it look like a mountain with trees on it. And then there was like, art and history inside of it. But you could also walk all the way up to the top of it, but it also had a like a skyline… what are those called that like you ride in the little bucket and it takes you up and you go around and you come back down. But it's like suspended in the air, Colleen: Like a funicular? Hannah: Yeah, like kind of like a funicular, but a funicular is like on railroad tracks. Right. And this is like suspended in their gondola, gondola or something like that. Yeah. And I was never brave enough to go on that because I didn't trust it to not, like, get stuck with me, you know, 200 feet up in the air. And then you'd be … Colleen: Just bring your water! Hannah: Hot and sweaty and thirsty and yeah, I wasn't on board for that. So we never did that. But we did go in the museum and I think, yeah, I think they hosted like an international festival, a French festival there actually. I went with a roommate who spoke French and it was weird. It's one of those things that I remember now and I'm like, What a weird thing for us to have gone to. Colleen: A French festival in Iraq. Hannah: In Iraq, yeah. But they also outside of Erbil have started establishing parks specifically for Newroz picnics. Oh, where it's like this is a designated, like picnic area. There's a trash bin. If you put your trash in the trash bin, the city will send someone out. And there are like big pine trees. So it's shady. But I mean, it's like here are 20 picnic places and it's like… Colleen: …here are 20,000 people. Hannah: Yeah. It's not going to work out the way you think it is. I mean. Colleen: It's a start. Hannah: It is a start, but there's like a little place to park your car. Colleen: Like a campsite. Hannah: Yeah, but for picnicking. Colleen: Which is far more important. Hannah: It is. It is far more important. Colleen: There's also a newer, really large park that, again, is in honor of someone famous that I don't remember that was being built out just on the edge of Slemani. And it also had a big path, but it was more hilly and it felt in some ways like the beginnings of a more Western style. Park, like a hiking, like a hiking path or but like not hiking but still walking path, but like more of what we would expect out of an arboretum, say, or something like that. Hannah: Right. Less central park and more state park. Colleen: Right. Larger ponds, just larger space all together. Lots and lots of parking lots. And you know, it's definitely made just for more people. But it was in its early stages and very obviously so like all the trees were tiny baby trees and all the grass was brown. Hannah: Just they're putting forth the effort. Colleen: Yeah. They're working on it and that was that was exciting, I think. Hannah: And there is there is a national park in or near Suly, isn't there? There's like a or like a preserve and nature preserve. I don't know if you ever went to it. I've only ever read about it. Colleen: Is it the one where they like work to preserve the wildlife? Like leopards… that's it. Hannah: Like leopards and mountain goats, I think. Colleen: And maybe wild boar. Hannah: Yes. Colleen: Yeah. And I don't even know where that is. I've only ever read about it. And it was not something that I feel like was ever talked about while I lived there. Hannah: Right. And I don't think it's it's open to the public in the way that we think of national parks or forests being open. It's more of a like nature preserve. Colleen: Like don't go here. Hannah: Right? There are leopards. Hopefully. Colleen: Hopefully they have some leopards. Yeah, they have video of them. Hannah: The other park that I spent time in was in Dohuk was the Gelli Park that is built. Below the dam for Dohuk lake. Colleen: Oh Yeah. Hannah: And so that one's kind of interesting because it's a mix of, like, Nature Park and small amusement park. Like they have bumper cars, and there's a little arcade that you can go in and play games and like, a little restaurant. Colleen: And, like, everything's painted in slightly garish colors. Hannah: So but there's also, like, a hiking trail, But you hike on the hiking trail to see these weird sculptures. Which, like, is a thing that people do even in the US. But for me, I'd never been on anything like that. And so when one of my friends was like, Oh yeah, we'll go and hike and look at the beautiful nature. And I was like, Okay, cool. And it was like, Oh, and these weird sculptures of like, Pegasus, which doesn't make any sense to me. And like, I don't know, it was just a very odd like, I do not associate these subject matters of art with Kurdish culture. And so it felt like we're trying to make it Greco-Roman art, but in Kurdistan. Colleen: In Kurdistan, it's very strange. Hannah: Hi, this is Steve. My wife and I have been with Servant Group International for quite a while now, which means that we're sort of old. And what that means for Servant Group is that we need more young, fresh faces in both in Iraq and here in Nashville. Love to have you join us! Colleen: But I feel like several of the parks do border into amusement park. I mean, even Azadi Park. One corner of it is an amusement park and Dream City in Dohuk is also an amusement park that I went to. Hannah: I actually never went to that one. By the time that I lived there, it was like, Oh, it wasn't cool anymore. And so nobody really went to it at that point. Colleen: My favorite thing was the receipt we got from there. When for paying our tickets to get in said "Makes all your dreams came true." Hannah: Did all your dreams came true? Colleen: Wow. Such promise! No, I had a lovely, a lovely Ferris wheel ride. Hannah: Yes. Colleen: If I had heard some of the other stories. Or maybe that was before, I think. I think that's before anyone else. Some of the other… The terror stories of the Ferris wheel rides happened. Hannah: But yeah, one of which is our our friend Mary, who she and John did an episode with us about raising kids in Kurdistan. But before they had kids, they went on this Ferris wheel. And Mary already is not like a big fan of heights and Ferris wheels and like… It's not her thing, but she was convinced to go on it for the experience. And I guess the way that it operated then was that if you wanted to get off, you had to like tell them, Hey, I want to get off. Whereas in the US it's like, oh, you get like three turns and then you got to get off. But they didn't know that. And so they just kept going around, and around and around. And she was like, How do I get off of this thing? And I think at one point they got stuck and she got stuck, like up in the Ferris wheel, stopped and like, wasn't sure if she was going to be able to get down again. Yeah. Colleen: Yeah. Hannah: We got to get her to tell that story sometime. Colleen: It's a better story when she tells it. Hannah: But yeah, that, that also contributed to me never going there. Colleen: I mean, I had a similar experience, but on a different ride in a different city. Hannah: Yeah. Colleen: So me and some of the other teachers and some of our students went on a ride that was like a… it's a swinging boat ride. Hannah: Yeah. Like the pirate ship. Colleen: Yeah. Yeah. Which I mean, again, I don't love things like that. I do get motion sick and I got convinced and I went and we were on there for what felt like forever. And finally, not even at my instigation, someone else was like, Hey, can you let us off? You know, as we swing back and forth. Hannah: Well, you get your money's worth, I guess. Colleen: I guess! That was the last ride I ever went on in Kurdistan. Hannah: That's probably for the best. Colleen: No more, no more of this. Hannah: We went to an amusement park in Kurdistan called Panc, which from my understanding, it was my first year in Kurdistan, so I didn't really have a good grasp of like directionally where we were. But I was told that it was near the Iranian border, but they had the pirate ship ride and I was like, No, thank you, I'm going to get seasick. I've already been driving on this party bus all day and I already feel like not great, but I think I did go on the bumper cars and this was all teachers from the school. Colleen: Oh, nice. Hannah: Picnic. So it was adults. They have that like anti gravity spinny thing that like, pushes you against the walls that a bunch of them went on. But they it was like branded as like the dance wheel because they played like really loud dance music as you spun around and there was like all these flashing lights and I was like, No thanks. I don't I don't want to be part of that either. Like, my ability to listen to music has been filled. Colleen: Again, party bus, loud music, dancing in the aisle the whole way. Hannah: Who needs a roller coaster like that when you go on a Kurdish party bus. But what I did end up doing was an alpine roller coaster, which a little bit on reflection, I was like, Hmm, that probably wasn't super safe either. But it was, it was a lot of fun. It's probably the best roller coaster ride I've ever been on. And I like roller coasters and it was really cool. So the park was along built kind of on a mountain-ish. So the the roller coaster went down into this gorge, essentially. So you kind of wind back and forth down into the floor of this canyon. You're just sitting on like a little cart that's on rails and you're in control of like your speed. So you have a hand brake that you use to, like, slow down and not slow down. Oh, and they just send you in twos. So it was it was me and my teammate at the time went down together, me and Anna. And so there are signs along the way that are like, Hey, there's a big curve. You should slow down. Colleen: That's a lot of faith to put in a person who's never done this or like… Hannah: And like, you also have to watch out for the people who are in front of you and behind you. Because if someone behind you decides to go faster than you want to go, you might get run into. Or if they stop suddenly in front of you, you might run into them and like you won't like crash and fall off. I mean, I guess if you were going fast enough, you could knock yourself off, but. We I think we ran into a couple of people, but it wasn't like it wasn't that big of a deal. Colleen: Like you encountered them. You didn't actually run into them. Hannah: I think we did run into one person or they ran into us. But it was really it was a really great way to like see the scenery of of that area. Colleen: And like Kurdistan does mountains and canyons really well. Hannah: Yeah, it was beautiful. And I remember thinking, I wish I had brought my camera with me to like, be able to take pictures of all of that because I was like, I'm never going to be up here again and see this again. So I just have to remember it in my mind and I do. But it's also been twelve years since then so it's fading a little bit, but so you get all the way down to the bottom and then your cart goes on to one of the conveyor belt, clickity things like on a roller coaster and it tows you back up to the top of the mountain. Colleen: So you don't even have to hike up the mountain. Hannah: Nope, You get a ride the whole way. It was really fun. There's one apparently in Gatlinburg, not far from here, but I don't know. I don't know if I could talk myself into doing it ever again, because it was really neat. It was a really cool experience and that was definitely a like, we're going to go out here and go to an amusement park, not just say like, Hey, there's a park that has this in it. Yeah, there's also a long standing-- I'm never sure it actually got built. And if it got built, I'm not sure it ever got used-- water park in Erbil. Colleen: Really. Hannah: With like water slides. Like the big ones. Colleen: So as you drive into Suly from like the airport or Erbil or somewhere, you passed, I don't think it's there anymore. I kind of hope it's not the remains of a water park. Oh, only the upper part of like three or four different slides that are like those brightly primary colored tubes that end maybe one or two stories high. I don't even know. Probably one. One story high. Yeah. And then underneath is just a field of upright rebar. Hannah: Huh? Terrifying. Colleen: Looks like some sort of torture. But it's just a long defunct water park, that is no longer. Hannah: I don't know. I don't know if Kurds would really enjoy a water park in the way that they enjoy their other parks. Colleen: It would just be men. Hannah: Right. I was going to say, there are a lot of other cultural weirdness around it. Colleen: So, like. Hannah: They would probably do like Women's Day. Colleen: But they still are kind of out of doors. Hannah: That's true. Colleen: Someone could see from somewhere else. So unless you had an entirely indoors water park. Hannah: Which do exist. Colleen: Which do exist, it's just that's a lot of work to go to. Hannah: Right. Colleen: For women, Hannah: That's true. Colleen: In their mindset. Hannah: Sure. Colleen: Kurds really do like their outings with their whole family and everybody being together. And that's part of what the parks serve is it's a public gathering place that you can bring your whole family, even at night like they are hopping. Hannah: Yeah, they definitely utilize parks in a way that I don't feel like most Americans do. Like we may go to the park to exercise or for like an afternoon picnic. Colleen: Kids to play at. You know. Hannah: And it's not like we're going to be here for the next 7 hours or we're going to spend the whole day. Colleen: Right? We don't bring multiple meals worth and set up on the grass. Hannah: And like, I feel like people in America would get mad at you if you did that to some extent. Like somebody would be upset that you were taking up park space for that amount of time. Like here, if you want to do that, you have to like reserve the pavilion. And pay to be there for that long. This is a totally different, totally different way of interacting. Colleen: And like, people don't use that big green space to play Frisbee or baseball or soccer, really. I mean, some kids will do on the side, but. Hannah: They dance, though. Colleen: They dance. But it's not it's not like this green space is here for large sports, which is kind of the way I feel like American parks are set up. Like, I mean, there's weird stuff in the Kurdish parks, right? Like benches that look like enormous pieces of fruit. Hannah: Or butterflies, we saw some of those, too. Colleen: Like giant concrete structures and random bushes and trees. Hannah: If I think about Centennial Park, which is the big downtown park here in Nashville, there's that big open field. And like, sometimes people are out there picnicking. But a lot of times as people like running their dogs out there or playing Frisbee or kicking a soccer ball around. Colleen: Throwing a football. Hannah: Throwing a football, it's definitely used as like, this is where we like are active, not this is where we. Colleen: Lounge. Hannah: Lounge and listen to music and dance and like it's utilized differently. Colleen: Right? All the people who are there for picnics and things are tucked in behind the trees and, you know, in the picnic tables and benches and, you know. Hannah: Yeah. And the pavilions that are set up specifically for that. Colleen: Yeah. Hannah: Yeah, but, Parks, we should go to more parks. Hannah: We should. Hannah: That's our. That's our resolution from this podcast. Go to more parks. Colleen: Go to more parks! Hannah: Hang out in the park. Colleen: Tell us about your park. Yeah. Hannah: Let us know how long you can hang out in a park before someone's like, Hey, why are you just, like, hanging out in the park? Don't you have somewhere to be? I wonder. Now I want to do a social experiment. Colleen: Social experiment? I think Americans would be, too. Uh, I don't know. Unlikely to tell you what to do or comment on it. Hannah: I don't think that's true. Colleen: I don't know. Hannah: I think they would. Somebody, somebody would get their feathers ruffled. Especially if you went with, like 15 people. Colleen: Well, maybe. Hannah: All right, check out your parks. Let us know. And if you live in the Nashville area, let us know of a good park we should go to. Besides Centennial Park. We've been there. We've done that. Give us somewhere new. Colleen: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servant Group International on Facebook or Instagram, and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at servantgroup.org. Hannah: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on. It helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next. Thanks for listening.

Helping After Another Earthquake in Turkey

Between Iraq and a Hard Place: Episode 58 This is a special update episode! Hannah and Colleen interview Robin, who helped SGI rebuild schools in Turkey after the big earthquakes in 1999. Those connections and relationships have opened up paths for us to serve in relief work and hopefully with rebuilding after these more recent earthquakes. We're sending teams to help build shelters in the short term and hopefully continue to serve the area as they rebuild. https://servantgroup.org/relief-work-in-turkey-team-heading-over-soon/ And here's a rough transcript! Hannah: Welcome to "Between Iraq and a Hard Place". I'm Hannah. Colleen: And I'm Colleen. And we're here to tell you a little bit about life in Iraq. Hannah: Woo hoo! Colleen: Today we have a guest with us, our dear friend Robin Dillard. Hannah: She's been on the podcast before. Colleen: True. But today she's coming to us in a very special capacity as she was part of a team years ago with Servant Group that served after the 1999 earthquake in Turkey. And so that seemed particularly relevant right now as we are continuing at looking at ways of serving in Turkey as Turkey suffered another major series of earthquakes. So we're very excited to hear what you have to share today, Robin, and how everything's connected, the work then and the work now. Hannah: So our first non Iraq focused episode. Mm hmm. Colleen: Yeah, ooh. Is that a problem? Hannah: No. We're just gonna have to call this one between Turkey and a hard place. Robin: Uh, well, it's interesting because when the earthquake of 99 happens in Turkey, Dave and I had been working in Iraq already for eight years or something like that. And so our work was centered on the Kurds in Iraq and hadn't thought about working in Turkey. So when the earthquake happened there was a church in Nashville or a supporter that went to one of our supporting churches and said, Hey, this is a really devastating event that's happened in Turkey. I'd like to send the director over to Turkey and get him on the ground and just see what the people could use there. And so with the $1,000, that was the donation it paid for the the travel. It got our director, Douglas, over to Turkey on the ground. And when he was over there, he met with several friends who had been living in Istanbul and some other team members from Europe met him there. And together they went to the center of the earthquake region, which was Izmit. That earthquake was 7.4. So it was it was pretty major. It was what they were calling at that time, the event of the century. This was about you could take a boat ride from Istanbul. It takes about an hour if you get on the ferry. So it's pretty close to Istanbul. And so the team came together and went on site and it was just devastating, how many people were homeless. Actually, after the earthquake, there was a tsunami in the Sea of Marmara that killed another couple hundred people. Colleen: Wow. Robin: So just devastated. This earthquake killed about 17,000 and about half a million people were left homeless. So when they went there, they just met with the city officials and said, what can we do? How can we help? You know, and what besides needing shelter, they really wanted schools. Everything was devastated. Their kids had no place to learn. So that was sort of the takeaway. They want us to build some schools. He flew back to America. And brought Dave in the office and said, Aren't you an engineer? And Dave said, Yeah. And he said, Isn't your wife an engineer? Yeah, she's an engineer. Hey, can you build some buildings? And we were like, What? I mean, it's specialty earthquake design is a specialty in structural design. And so my college degree was in structural design, but I didn't do much earthquake design at all. But we had friends who lived in the Pacific Northwest who were very accustomed to that kind of design. So they had the technology we needed and were willing to come alongside of us. Colleen: So you guys decided to build schools? Robin: Yeah. Colleen: In Turkey? Robin: Yeah. Hannah: Earthquake resistant. Robin: Schools? Yeah. Hannah: How was the timeline on this? Like, how long from Douglas getting back? Was he like, okay, you guys are going to go? Robin: It was like less than a couple of months. It was so fast. It was fast. Yeah. So we had, we had the $1,000 that was all that was given. We started raising money for this huge project and sent our first team over to build several concrete structures. Which that was sort of the first prototype. It was much more difficult, but it got us on the ground really fast. And we took teams there, contractors from Nashville and people that could just pick up and go right away. And that was the first team that went. And in the process, Dave was supposed to go over and he got appendicitis. Hannah: Oh, no! Robin: I don't know if you guys knew that he was really, really ill because his appendix burst and so he was bed bound for like weeks. He was so ill. So he was the person who was supposed to be in charge of everything. And here he was stateside. So we sent the teams. They did really tremendous work, working with local contractors. And so that was the first two school buildings that were built and everyone was happy. And it gave us favor. Like, I mean, the government officials were like, come back, we need more. We need more. So. It gave us a little bit more time. To to say, okay, just pouring these concrete structures on site is not probably the best way. There's got to be better construction and maybe we can build something in America and have it partially shipped over. So we called FedEx and they were on board to to help us get materials to Turkey. So they were sort of our logistics person, FedEx. And and we linked up one of our contacts in the Pacific Northwest had developed this earthquake resistant building system recently and it was sort of a combination metal and concrete system. And so we really we learned how to use that system and how to detail and design using it. And what we ended up doing is building some of the frames just in our parking lot in Nashville and having all those things figured out, the frames built, shipping them over, using FedEx. They arrived on the site and once we got on site with our teams, then we started pouring concrete and much more efficient system, much more light gauge, lightweight, earthquake resistant and just doable. Like it was quick and you could put up a building just like in a week. Literally. Just tilt it up. It was tilt up panels a little bit different than we did before. Hannah: What's a tilt up panel? Robin: Yeah. So you have a metal frame that's done and that's what we did in Nashville. And and you set it on the ground. You sort of. It's like making brownies, sort of. Hannah: Okay. Robin: Here's what you do. You line like you have a form on the ground and you put like you spray it like with Pam so it doesn't stick. And then you lay your metal into it and then you pour your concrete on it and you let it dry and then you pick it up. You just tilt it up and that becomes your wall system and your roof system for a building. And it's extremely efficient, lightweight, fast. And what you have to bring from America are like the anchors that hold it all together. And that's what we were shipping over besides the the metal, we shipped all these anchors over and it was crazy. So I think, um, we took in the process over several years we built six structures. And probably involved several hundred people. Building and going over to Turkey like either involved in Nashville building frames or on the ground. You know, putting these buildings up, finishing the buildings, all that. And probably that thousand dollars was the seed money it turned into several hundred thousand dollars being raised is probably was 200 to 300 people being involved from $1,000 seed money. Colleen: That's a big project. Robin: Amazing. So the last building we built was for our team members who wanted to stay in the region and continue to help the people of that city. And so the second to the last building we built was the police headquarters in that city. Colleen: I've seen photos of that one. Robin: So that one was the smile of the city. And man, everyone loved it and felt safe in it. And from that point on, our team members like they had the kiss of of the mayor. And the last building we built was was a house for our team member to live in. So he stayed in that region and helped the people. Help them with industry, business. As well as helping the refugees that would later show up and that all along the coast from Syria and Iran and Iraq. And so he's been there over 20 years. Hannah: Yeah. That's amazing. Robin: Yeah, it is. Hannah: And now they've had this this huge, bigger earthquake, right? 7.8 was the original one. And it was devastating. And they've recently had some more big ones. And probably by the time this gets out there, we'll have more accurate numbers. But they're in the hundreds of thousands of people presumed dead at this point. Right. Colleen: I don't know if it's quite hundreds of thousands. Hannah: Tens of thousands? Robin: Tens of thousands. Yeah, it's over 40. I think we're looking at 45,000. Hannah: So we are still working with with folks there in Turkey still right now, it seems like the thing they need is, is funds to be able to feed and house and and work on some rescue operation type stuff. Colleen: It sounds like most of what's going on is passing out food, blankets, diapers and then building tents or these other kind of temporary metal structures. Hannah: Yeah, we are sending teams? Colleen: We're sending a team next week. Robin: Yeah. It's a discovery trip. And yeah, they'll survey the land and see and see if they can get all the materials they need on the ground. But it will be a shelter, shelter building. I mean we're hoping to I think we are with another agency raising funds for 100 structures. Right. That's the first phase. Yeah. 100. Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we are hopeful that we can send interested Americans over to to help build that. And that will be pending information. Keep an eye on the website for information about that. If if you're interested in in going, that might be possible. So yeah, we're just again amazed that it's been 20 some years, 23 year since then. And and we're back. We're connected still through all of this. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, Robin. Anything else? Colleen: Thanks. Glad to be here. Hannah: Are you going to build us some earthquake proof shelters here in the US. Robin: What do you think? Do you like concrete? Hannah: I think the back end of the office needs to be shored up. Robin: I think you're right. That makes me a little bit nervous. Actually. I agree with you. Hannah: Oh, man. Hannah: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Servant Group International on Facebook or Instagram, and you should check out our blog and complete transcripts over at ServantGroup.org. Colleen: And it's really helpful for us if you share our podcast or leave a review on whatever platform you listen to this podcast on, it helps us know that people are listening and you can let us know what you want to hear next. Hannah: Thanks for listening.