In the second episode, we speak to Andrea Stone, service director for Children's Social Care in Dudley and Emina Atic-Lee, service manager at Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust and a member of our National Advisory Forum. The forum provides expert advice, support and challenge to our work and how we achieve our objectives. Both have been registered social workers for over 20 years. They talk to us about why diversity data collection is key to practice and highlight its importance.
Transcript
Ahmina
Hi, I'm Ahmina Ahktar, Head of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at Social Work England. Welcome to this is Social Work, a podcast from the specialist regulator for social workers, Social Work England. Equality, diversity, and inclusion are sent forward to our work as an effective regulator, an employer. They are inherent in our values, which are to be fearless, independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, and to act with integrity.
As part of our equality, diversity, and inclusion action plan, we made a commitment to better understand the social work profession. We're doing this by actively seeking diversity data from social workers on our register to help us to continue to ensure our processes are fair and to set a benchmark for further insight to support this work and following a successful first podcast season.
These special podcast episodes will focus on diversity data collection. In this episode, I'm joined by Andrea Stone, Service Director for Children's Social Care in Dudley and Emina Atic-Lee Service Manager at NHS Foundation Trust. Emina is also a member of our National Advisory Forum.
The forum provides expert advice, support, and challenge to our work and how we achieve our objectives at Social Work England. Both have been registered social workers for over 20 years. They talk to us about why diversity data collection is key to practice and highlight its importance. We hope you enjoy.
So I'm delighted to be joined by Andrea and Emina today. So before we go any further, I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself. So I'll start with Andrea. Can you say who you are, your job title and link to the social work profession?
Andrea
Okay. I'm Andrea Stone and I'm service director for Children's Social Care in Dudley.
And I've been a social worker for about 22 years.
Ahmina
Thanks Andrea, and we'll go to Emina.
Emina
Hi. So I'm Emina, I'm a registered social worker. I've been social worker for the same time as Andrea, 22 years, and I worked for Local Authority for 22 years after the last year when I joined the NHS. I'm also a member of the National Advisory Forum, which works with Social Work England closely, and I've been a member since March 2020 when it first kind of formed.
Thank you both. So we've been talking about the importance of diversity data. In part one, we were talking about the importance of providing information about our identities and how providing information about our characteristics has become commonplace. And we're often asked to share this data when we apply for a job or a course or when we register with the new service.
And in this part of the podcast, we'll continue to explore this, and look for some thoughts and reflections from Emina and Andrea. So I'm just going to move on to my first question. Why is it important for social workers to share this data with us? So, I'll start with you Emina.
Emina
Yes, thank you.
I've been thinking about this and I think as a registered social worker, I feel a real sense of belonging within the social work community. I'm really aware that this community is very kind of wide and diverse, as over 22 years I worked with colleagues, when we write your backgrounds in terms of culture, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, and I think it's this kind of richness and diversity that makes social work of the most resourceful professions in the public sector.
I think they to serve the needs of our diverse communities. And I think this is something we need to feel quite proud of as a profession. And I think the only way for us to have a clear sense of who the eyes are in the profession, and what our identity represents is for social workers to share their personal characteristics with Social Work England, at the point of kind of registering or renewing our registration. And then what would happen, I think is social workers, we would have access to overall figures collected. And I know as enough member that when social work England writes their annual report, there's a really good data around diversity and equality.
And we need to, I think, contribute to that. And I think we also hopefully make sure as a workforce we are kind of better presented within social work itself and enough as well. And I think we'll also, hopefully we'll have the regulator kind of have a better understanding. Who we are, so they're better equipped to meet our needs and ensure there's a fairness at every level.
Ahmina
Thanks, Emina really helpful to hear your reflections. If we come to you, Andrea.
Andrea
Yeah, so for me, I think it's really important so we can have Social Work England and social work itself have a really good understanding about the makeup of the social workers across the system. And when we think about geographically where they work, where there are more social workers with different protected characteristics, where they are, are there areas where there aren't any, but then we would like to have more.
And I think it also helps us to evidence to the communities that we have the right workers available that look like the communities that they serve really. So I think that's really important. And the same way that we expect when we work with our families and communities, we wanna have a good understanding about their areas of protected characteristics, what, where the diversity is and when we think about things, for example, health inequalities.
That information that helps us to know whether we're providing a good service or whether or not there's things we need to do differently. So I think it's really important that people are able to be willing to give their data around diversity issues so we know exactly what's there, how we might meet their needs, or where there are any gaps.
Ahmina
Thanks Andrea. Really helpful. And Emina, you touched on social workers sharing their diversity data as part of the renewal process. So in part one, I explained that over the last year we'd been asking social workers to record their diversity data, but the numbers were lower than we'd hoped. And that's why we've decided to include the diversity questions as part of our renewal process because renewals is when we experience the greatest engagement with our processes. So we really hope that that's gonna continue to boost our numbers and we can see that there has been an increase. So what are your thoughts on including these questions as part of the renewal process?
Um, if I come to you first, Emina.
Emina
So I think it feels absolutely right. The social work is being quite proactive about this, and I think there's a thinking creatively and making it easy for social workers to share data if they want to do so. What I think is important during the renewal process is that social workers are giving real clarity as to why they're asked to share their press information so they can make informed decisions, and I think this has been achieved. If you look at the current process and the explanation offered when you first try to renew your registration, I think that's pretty clear. So people are able to make those decisions and it is crucial that, you know, at that point the questions are short to the point.
And I know the social workers, especially frontline social workers, a really short of time. So doing anything that requires a long time may not be possible. And I think also what it does at that point, it kind of, when you are renewing registration, it's a good point to think about your identity I think as well.
Because for all of us, I think it reminds us what we as individuals bring to our social work practice and how we work with our colleagues, how we work with our communities. So it's a good point, how to pause and think, you know, who am I and how this impacts on, on the work that I do.
Ahmina
That's great.
Thank you. And if I come to you, Andrea, for your reflections.
Andrea
Yes. So I think it's really important to ask around the time of registration, and I agree with Emina that it gives people an opportunity to think about their identity. But I also think that bit around why we're asking, why social working than they're asking is really important.
And I would go further and say that because there is some reluctance or there may be some reluctance from some people to do that. Almost saying why we are doing it and then being able to demonstrate evidently in the future what's been done with that data because of the reluctance. So I think it's important to ask the question, but definitely be able to evidence what difference it's gonna make to, to social workers and, and particularly for workers that might feel there's some detriment to them by providing their data.
Ahmina
Thank you both. And, and in part one, we talked about how important it is for us as a professional regulator to have this data and that diversity data, alongside other data, really helps us to have a fuller picture of the makeup of the register to help us identify any issues and enable us to address them. And really helps us to kind of give a bit more of an insight around how we can potentially improve our processes as well. So we know anecdotally that there's an over representation of black and ethnic minority social workers and men in our fitness to practice processes.
So being able to evidence that by having a fuller data set would really enable us to explore those issues further. So we really want to think about how we can use this data effectively. And the more that we have, the more we were able to use that as an evidence based, we're able to support in exploring these issues further. We also intend to publish this information anonymously and we really hope that we'll be able to share this data with other policy makers and leaders and also enable them to use this data to be able to ensure that their processes are equitable and inclusive too.
So in relation to that, then, how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run? To improve the profession and really think about how we can support our ambitions as a profession around equality, diversity, and inclusion. So if I come to you, Andrea.
Andrea
Yes. So I think, you know, being able to gather the data will help with some of those sort of trends and being able to evidence things, you know, and we know that the work that we do is not always about numbers and number crunching, but it does assist.
It does assist as well as the anecdotal information that we have. There are times when we, we need more than what we think. We need to have some evidence for that. So when you talked about the, you know the overrepresentation, within practice element, we know that certainly within other elements of the, of the workforce or social work practice there's over representation in other places as well.
And I would just want to encourage people to provide that data and not see necessarily as a negative. Because if we're going to develop and grow and meet needs or challenge, we need some evidence to say why we're challenging something and without. It's difficult to do that. And I know when I've spoken to some black and ethnic minority colleagues about, you know, updating the data, you know, some said, well, I hadn't really thought about it, didn't really think it was important, you know, everybody's in a bit of a hurry these days.
So I think it's really good that Social Work England have taken the time to really try and promote that and hopefully through things like this podcast, we can get people to understand what the benefits.
Ahmina
Absolutely. Thanks Andrea. And I think we are really trying to think about different ways that we can communicate that message that both you and Emina have talked about. And again, speaking to your point earlier that people are, and social workers in particular are really busy, especially when on the front lines.
So trying to find different ways to get the message out feels really important. So you're absolutely right. We hope that this is another means of getting the message out and getting people. To kind of take this call to action, to share their data and really help us improve our processes, but also potentially processes across the sector.
So coming to you on the same question, Emina, how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run?
Emina
Well, I was thinking more about a kind of regulator being well equipped. Meet the needs of social workforce and kind of contribute to becoming stronger, more resilient force as well in a way.
And I think you can only do that if you understand. You know the makeup of who are the social workers in this country? You know, are we meeting the needs of the community appropriately? Also, I was thinking in cases where there's a fitness to practice and looking at that data as well, if there is an insight that a particular group of social workers, it's perhaps disproportionately presented.
I'm hoping that will lead to curiosity as to why that is. What are the kind of wider social issues that are contributing to that in particular past the country. So I think social working can really help for that in terms of thinking what is there, what's happening out there with social workers when it comes to fitness to practice.
And the final bit for me is about the kind of voice of social work profession. And I think us knowing who we are, knowing our identity, being able to give our, you know, have our voice. It will almost contribute us being kind of stronger in, in being able to talk about ourselves as a workforce, as a profession.
Often we are very good as social workers advocating on others' behalf and presenting individuals we work with, but other things we are so good in actually saying this is who we are and we are proud of identity and this is what we do. So I'm hoping, you know, this process and people sharing their identity will help.
Ahmina
Thank you and some really interesting reflections from both of you. I suppose just as a, as an additional question, and I think you've kind of covered this in some of your responses, but I think maybe just to focus in a little bit more, what do you think the implications are if we don't have this data for the profession?
So if I go to you, Andrea.
Andrea
I think that would be really disappointing in as much, I think there's lots more to do around diversity and individual local authorities will be doing some work around their EDI agenda and what they're doing with their workforce and their communities. And I think for Social Work England, not to have that in terms of, you know, the hundred thousand or so social workers that are across England would not give us the opportunity to be able to really progress some of the things we've talked about today. So even if I think about, you know, myself as a black assistant director and how there's a lack of data there now in terms of across the country where there are other assistant directors and which parts of the country they're in. So I think at every level throughout the system, we should have the data that helps us to be able to develop and strengthen the social work profession so that you can offer a good service to children and families, and the data will obviously help us to do that.
Ahmina
Thanks, Andrea. I think I fully support Andrea's view around this really, and I'm thinking about a social work profession, but also about Social Work England as a regulator coming into place back in, was it early 2020 or December 2019, and thinking about that and how much we have achieved already. So I think this is kind of not having this data. We'll miss the opportunity as a profession to grow and develop and ensure that Social Work England, as our regulator knows who we are, understands what we need and that ensures that all the processes in place, so, which there are many, a really fair and inclusive.
That's what we need to focus on. And I think this is a step towards. Thank you and I can really speak to that because obviously, um, as the head of equality, diversity, and inclusion at Social Work England, this data will really support me when I'm reviewing a lot of the processes. Um, and really thinking about how we ensure that we are, um, equitable and inclusive in everything that we do.
And I think really being able to work and report from a strong data set will really assist that as Andrea has already touched upon. So it's been really interesting to hear your reflections on this. So I'm gonna bring this to a close with what's the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion?
So if I start with you, Emina.
Emina
Yeah, so I think what I'd like to say, I think thinking about the message to give to our peers, our social workers is, you know, please think about the value of sharing your personal characteristics with Social Work England. And I think by doing this, we are making ourselves more visible as a profession, and we are saying that we are really proud of who we.
But I reflect back on my career in social work. I think the demographic of social work profession has really changed immensely over the last 20 years. When I initially trained in 99, finish my training in Bristol University, it was a very different group of students to, I go yearly and do, social work guest lecturing at King University in London.
And I look at demographic there. And, whether it's an age of social workers, whether it is the ethnic identity, disabilities etc. And I see the real wide range of people who are coming into social work. And I think we need to celebrate that. We need to use that. It's a really rich tapestry to work from.
So by enabling social work to know that, I think we'll just help further in developing the profession. So just remember those things that, you know, we are very good. And just finally, you know, just thinking that yes, you know, our needs as social workers need to be met by the regulator as well in a way.
And if there is a knowledge and understanding of who we are, I think that will help in ensuring that, does everything they can do to ensure that it, everything is fair and inclusive. So I think that's my kind of final thoughts.
Ahmina
Thank you, Andrea. Your final reflection.
Andrea
Yeah. So my, my final thoughts really, and my plea would be for social workers to, you know, put their information about their areas of diversity.
And like Emina says, for the regulator, our regulator to be able to assist and look at some of those issues, whether it's you know, anti-racist practice within work, how are they going to do that if they don't have the details around the makeup of the people that are the social workers across England?
So I would say it was very important to do that. But I also recognise that there'll be some reluctance about that and would encourage people to say, you know, to have the view that if we want there to be change, you know, across the system, in the areas that people are concerned about around diversity, then we have to start with having some data to evidence some of the concerns that people have.
Ahmina
Thank you. So thank you both for joining me today and sharing your reflections. And I'm gonna take your call to action, Andrea, and run with that. And I'll say it again that I think social work is an incredibly unique profession and it's really well placed to lead the way driving forward, equality, diversity, and inclusion.
And by providing this data, all social workers are really helping us to ensure the fairness of our process for social workers and supporting us to build a better picture of the profession and more broadly, also enabling other policy makers and leaders to make better informed decisions about the sector.
Thanks again to Emina and Andrea for joining me today. If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisisSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can find out more about the collection of diversity data on our website.
Thank you for listening.
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