Ep. 12 - Grayson Smith - Journey Inward: Emotional Growth Through Outward Bound

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Grayson Smith. Outward Bound plated a pivotal role in Grayson's outdoor and personal development. Throughout Grayson's time in the program they faced setbacks and challenges in the outdoors and learned with the help of a community to believe in themselves and persevere. Topics covered include building community, emotional vulnerability, the fun scale and the power of journaling.

Show Notes

Outdoorosity Team Email: podcasts@appstate.edu

Pronouns: they/him
School email: smithgh@appstate.edu 
Instagram: ghsmith15

Outward Bound

North Carolina Outward Bound

Blue Ridge Parkway Overlooks and Trails

Journaling Ideas

 

 

Transcript

 

Becki

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story. The goal… to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development. The vision of The Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I'm a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. On today's episode, team member doctor Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews App State recent graduate Grayson Smith where they tell us how their Outward Bound experience inspired them, and they have come full circle working for Outward Bound.

 

Joy

Hi, I'm Joy here with Grayson. Thank you for joining us, Grayson.

 

Grayson

Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.

 

Joy

If you could introduce yourself, kind of tell us where you're from and what your favorite outdoor activity is.

 

Grayson

Yeah. So my name is Grayson Smith. I use they/he pronouns, I identify as trans mask. I grew up in Raleigh. Atlanta until I was about six. And then Raleigh. I call Boone home now. I've been here almost five years. Oh, gosh. Favorite outdoor activity? There's so many things I could say. I've gotten really into climbing over the past few years. That was something that I used to be pretty scared of as a teenager. And, being in the rec program here at App has really helped me, reopen up to that, that activity and, kind of push those fears away.

 

Joy

Cool. Glad to hear that. How did you first get interested in the outdoors?

 

Grayson

So I went to a high school in Raleigh that required us to go on an outbound trip as freshmen. I had never heard of Outward Bound. I had never really. I never understood that there was an outdoor industry. I didn't really go hiking as a kid. I grew up in two major cities. two major capital cities. I just didn't. I wasn't really exposed to recreation until I got to high school and went on this Outward Bound trip with my freshman class, and I was the only student that enjoyed it. And I kind of kept that to myself. I was like, ooh, this bugs and camp. Ooh, gross dirt, you know? And everybody was like, like, this is so. I loved every second of it. It was my favorite thing. My instructors probably remember me being the only person that was excited about it. So from then on, from about the age of 14, I had the goal and passion for working for Outward Bound as an instructor one day which is crazy, because eight years later, here I am. I just had my interview yesterday for that position. So. Yeah.

 

Joy

I'm so excited for you.

 

Grayson

Yeah, it's going to be exciting.

 

Joy

Just in case some of our listeners don't know what Outward Bound is. How would you describe it?

 

Grayson

Outward bound. Oh, okay. Let me see if I can make this a short definition. Outward Bound to me is a community of people and a program that provides courses like backpacking courses. there's paddling, there's climbing, all integrated. Either it can be separately. It's like just a backpacking course or all those three things together, and then various other leadership skills, communication, self-reliance, mental health, just all the kinds of things that can help shape you and help you grow as a human. Outward Bound. They just really, really care about youth, and they really care about inspiring young people to connect with nature and, you know, connect and grow more into themselves.

 

Joy

Okay. Thank you. So it's something I can pay for. I can do semester-long, week-long activities.

 

Grayson

So the courses run, typically on average from 4 to 30 days. And then we do have like, 50 day outdoor educator course around that, number of days and then also a semester course. The cool thing about NCOBS which is North Carolina Outward Bound School, is they actually run programs in a couple of different states, which is, let's see, North Carolina, Florida, Virginia.

We have got someone like the Outer Banks, like beach stuff, which is kind of cool. And then, the season actually just ended, and Table Rock, which is about an hour outside of Boone, near Morganton. And so that season ended on Halloween, October 31st. And, all the people are moving down to the Everglades in Florida which is really cool. The base camp is like on an island. I've never been, but I've heard really cool stories. Then they also run a semester course in Patagonia. So, you do a month there, a month in the Everglades and a month in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I'm not sure of the order. I think you've got, like, a day break.

 

Like you've obviously you're flying. You might stay in a hotel or somewhere, like, you know, but, yeah, I mean, there's so many options.

 

Joy

And so when you were in high school, was it a week, like, how long was your course?

 

Grayson

Our course was three nights and four days.

 

Joy

And you got jazzed just from three nights and four days?

 

Grayson

My gosh, yes, it was. I mean, the bus ride. They're getting out of the bus. I mean, I ended up going on a course for 30 days. I applied, I think 2 or 3 months after I got back from that trip, which is in April so I applied over the summer, got accepted to my 30 day course in Oregon that October, and was there the next summer.

 

Joy

And remind me how old you were. For the first time in high school.

 

Grayson

I was, I had oh, actually, I might have been. No, I would have been 14 about to turn 15.

 

Joy

Okay. Yeah. And so then a couple months later, you go on a 30 day course.

 

Grayson

About a year later, I applied a few months later, and then about a year later I was in Oregon.

 

Joy

Okay. So Outward Bound has really been in your life since you're about 15? Yes. Okay. Cool. All right. So the next question we have here is what are your favorite outdoor activities. You've mentioned that you enjoy climbing. What other outdoor activities do you do or enjoy?

 

Grayson

Yeah. I really like backpacking, just generally speaking. It brings me a lot of joy to carry all my things around, even though it's really heavy and can be painful at times. I just find a lot of joy in the fact that I'm just like, ooh, where's my pen? Well, I know where it is. It's right here in my pocket. You know, like I have all my things right on my person. I can put my bed anywhere. I have beautiful views, you know, I'm with my friends. I can cook them a meal. Let's see, I took a paddling class. Let's see, was it last semester or the semester before with Grace Fortune, who works at UREC now.

Grayson

And, that was an amazing class. I had a lot of fun. Yeah. She's great. Yeah, we had a really great time. that really opened up my passion for paddling as well. That's also something that I'll hopefully be trained in, with Outward Bound, whenever that does happen. But yeah, kayaking would be my, my preferred paddling.

 

Joy

Are you thinking kayaking like whitewater or flat water or any of it?

 

Grayson

So I have some, some flat water kayaking experience. I grew up going to summer camp, so I learned a lot of it there. and then with that paddling class we were on, all flat water. We didn't get the chance to do any whitewater. I did go to the Whitewater Center in Charlotte while I was working with Outward Bound this summer. It was a little intimidating because, you know, it's intense there. It's, you know, it's like a real rapid situation. We went rafting before, and I fell out at the top of the run and, like, was swimming all the way down. And it was just so much. And I was like, I'm not going to do the whitewater kayaking today.

 

Joy

Did water get up your nose?

 

Grayson

Oh, I thought, I thought so many bad things were going to happen to me because I swallowed the water and I couldn't get out of it. It was just so funny. But type two fun would be that. That was my type two fun experience with some white water.

 

Joy

So our listeners may not be as familiar with type one. Type two can you kind of tell us what you mean by that?

 

Grayson

Yeah. So type one fun would be like, yeah, I just had a lot of fun. Like, you did an activity and you're like, that was super cool. That was really fulfilling. That made me really happy. Type two fun would be like, in the moment I'm really kind of scared. Or I'm like, what's the outcome going to be like? This is kind of really like a roller coaster, maybe like you're going up the roller coaster, you're freaking out. And then once it falls, you're like, woohoo!

 

Joy

Yeah.

 

Grayson

So, type two fun would be like, you look back on that moment when you were scared and you're like, but that was kind of fun though. Like, let's be honest, that was kind of fun. And then, type three is just like, nope, that wasn't fun at all. I don't want to do that again. I'm done. Yeah.

 

Joy

All right. Thank you for that explanation. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors,

 

Grayson

That's a good question. I think just growing up. So again, I didn't really have access to your typical recreation. I mean, I went on Outward Bound trips, which I was really, really blessed and privileged to be able to do that but I didn't have anything locally that I was really getting into as a kid.

 

Joy

And then how...were you involved with scouting?

 

Grayson

No, I worked for a Girl Scout camp, two summers ago, and that's really my only experience there. Even growing up at summer camp, it was still, you know, it wasn't like outdoors, the way that we think of it in the sense of, you know, this field. It was more just like your stereotypical summer camp activities, but I'd say just just I've always I've never not been interested in the outdoors.I feel like that's why this is a hard question for me to answer, because, I mean, as a kid, I was always, you know, digging up worms in the backyard and playing in the dirt and, you know, collecting acorns and burying them for squirrels because I thought that they would come in and then get the nuts, you know, just just things like that. I've always just had a passion for all sorts of critters and nature and everything.

 

Joy

So was there any, like, friends or adults or really, it sounds like those were foundational, but then Outward Bound really kind of pushed you in this kind of adventure.

 

Grayson

So I would say there's two people that would be notable in my Outward Bound journey, which would be Stiles Rader. She actually went to my high school, which I won't name, but she did go to my high school and we applied to, like, all the same colleges.

 

Joy

And she was here.

 

Grayson

She was here. She went to App. She worked a lot with Jerry Cantwell. That's how she got to Outward Bound. Yeah. I actually went to her house for, like, an Outward Bound alumnae meeting one time, and I was the youngest student. Or, like, you know, I, I was the one that had been on a course most recently. So that was super exciting for all of the people that we're like from the 70s and 80s on their courses. So yeah, Stiles was a really big inspiration for me because once I figured, I mean, we don't even really know each other that well, but just knowing that there was a person that came out of my high school that, you know, now is and the outdoor industry was really, really cool. And I actually went back to Outward Bound as a senior because I had to do it like an internship or a capstone project my senior year of high school. And I just loved it so much that I was like, I need to go back, I need to go do this. Stiles wrote me a little note on a chocolate bar and was like, you've got this. I was a student mentor, so I obviously wasn't an instructor. You know, I'm in high school. But, you know, they let me lead some, like, evening circles and teach some lessons and yeah, you know, they definitely stepped in a lot because this was five years ago almost.

 

Joy

See how much you've grown.

 

Grayson

I know, and it's so crazy now because the person that I was in contact with about being a mentor for the freshmen when I was a senior was Whitney Setser, who I text now regularly. We’re both Boygenius fans, big Swifties and she still works for Outward Bound and does the same. So I actually might be going back with her, at the end of this year or beginning of next year, maybe spring to talk to the freshmen at Saint Mary's.

 

Joy

It just sounds like this community of yours just started building in 2015. Well not in 2015 but when you were 15 and you had no idea.

 

Grayson

No, it was! It was 2015!

 

Joy

Oh it was?! Ok! I made a good guess.

 

Grayson

Yeah. And, yeah, it's crazy. And I remember, I got to all-staff training. Let me mention this. So there are...there's several, base camps, like I said, the Everglades and then in North Carolina, we've got the Outer Banks and then the two, that I'd say are more well known would be Table Rock and Cedar Rock and Cedar Rock is near Brevard for location context. So we were down at Cedar Rock, and I was introduced to Whitney, who I thought I was being introduced to and then I was like, your name sounds really familiar. Like, do you, you know, like, I have been on I've been with Outward Bound, whatever. And we figured out that she was working with my high school. I texted her the other day, I was like, did you see this thing that Taylor did? And, you know, do we have fun?

 

Joy

Yeah. Well, I think that the fun thing for me to think about this for you, Grayson, is that imagine the influence you're having on other people. Like you're just part of this chain now of influencing people who come into the Outward Bound community into ways that you're not going to be able to imagine.

 

Grayson

I know, and that's something that I think about so often. And the main reason, really, why I want to be an instructor is because of the impact my instructors had on me over the years. I mean, I would not be anywhere near the human that I am right now without Outward Bound and without that community.

 

Joy

Understood. So this next question, you've kind of been answering it, but I'm going to kind of direct in a different way. So that next question is tell us a story about an outdoor experience that has influenced you. So it could be a funny story. It could be a lesson learned story. Do you have anything like that you'd be willing to share with our listeners?

 

Grayson

I do, so let's see if I can recall this. Well, so this was, let's see, July of 2016. I was in Oregon. I had been on my course for a little over two weeks...maybe even three at this point. We were going to summit a peak and it was Broken Top in the Three Sisters Wilderness and oh my gosh, the most beautiful place, really, that I've ever been. I love Oregon so much. And so that morning we wake up. I'm pretty stoked. You know, it's early. It's like four. Sun's not up yet. Whatever. There's snow and ice on the ground. We'll figure it out. We've got this. So we pack up our things and we get going and it was probably the most terrifying experience of my entire life.

The way up there, I was, like, freaking out panic attack mode. Like, not...

 

Joy

Type three fun?

 

Grayson

Yes. I was like, get me out of here. I don't want to be here. This is not. And, you know, my instructors at the time, they were pushing me because they thought that I was in my comfort zone of like, okay, I'm uncomfortable, but I can do this. But I was in a panic. Right?

And they later were like, we're sorry that, you know, we didn't recognize that. But back to the important part of the story. So we finally make it up there. I was freaked out the whole time I get to the summit, I barely remember it. I remember, like, looking around and just being like, get me off this mountain right now! Like. And I was like, 16. Oh, my. It was a no-cussing course. And I was like get me the f... like, no, like, I need to leave right now. So I get down off the summit. I'm not in the picture with all of my crew mates. They have a picture together. I'm not in it because I was like, get me away. I mean, we had like hand lines.

 

Joy

Was it the height? What was freaking you out.

Grayson

It was the height without safety. I'm not really afraid of heights like I've been in planes. I've been on roller coasters you know, but it's when I don't have railings or anything. You know, then you're like,

 

Joy

High Risk.

 

Grayson

Very high risk. And, like, I mean, I'm looking down this steep, steep, icy, snowy hill to an opening of jagged rocks that probably drops like 100ft down. I'm like, I don't want to fall into that. Please, can we go somewhere else? So my crew ended up, after, you know, everybody celebrated being at the top. We had some lunch and we started the trek down and I just couldn't do it. I mean, walking down this slippery slope, like, rocks, ice, snow. I was just, like, not about it. So one of my instructors stayed back with me and the rest of my crew and my other instructor just, you know, they were all like, we're good to go. We're just going to walk down, which was a little embarrassing for me. You know, I was 16 at the time. I was one of only two women on that course. So it was already kind of like a weird situation and we're hiking down and I was, again, just freaking out the whole time. And my instructor was like, all right, here's what we're going to do. Come here. And again, like I said, this was a no cussing course. Okay. We're in. We're on the side of this mountain trying to get down it. No one else is in sight.

 

Joy

What's the altitude? Just to give us perspective.

 

Grayson

I don't think it was. It might have been a 12. It's not it's not. It's less than 14.

 

Joy

Ok. That’s still significant.

 

Grayson

It's definitely significant. And especially when you're there you're like, oh yeah I'm on this mountain. So we're so we're there. We're like not even halfway down. And he's like come here. Like we're going to do something. And I was like, okay. And he's like, come over here and here's what we're going to do. You're going to scream your name, but you're going to scream it like this. And then he screams his name and he goes, (I'm going to say my name first). But he goes, my name is Grayson Smith. And I'm so awesome and made me scream this into the void of the wilderness. And I was like, I was like, please don't make me do that. He's like, we're doing it. He's like, I'll go first. So he goes first. And then I was like, Okay.

Grayson

And I did it. And I was like, oh. And I just...I look back on that moment a lot and I later found out that that was his first course as an instructor.

 

Joy

Oh, wow.

 

Grayson

Which really, really has stuck with me now that I'm, you know, looking on that path and, it's just it's just crazy to think how little this one sentence that my instructor made me say to just be like, get out of your head for a second. Let's just cuss it out. You know? I'm like, let's just do something fun and different for a second. And of course, I'm like, no, please don't make me. And I did it.

 

Joy

It changed? Like, were you able to continue down or just?

 

Grayson

It still was a hard trek down, but I definitely felt more capable. And, I mean, I would say that looking back, probably in that moment, I was like, oh, that was stupid. Now I still have to go do this. But looking back, that was so

 

Joy

A very powerful moment.

 

Grayson

It was a very powerful moment. Yes.

 

Joy

Well, cool. Thank you for being willing to share that with us. Yeah.

 

Becki

Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Hope Lab. At the Hope Lab we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the myriad of benefits of spending time outdoors. As we listen to Grayson, you can hear how important the Outward Bound community is to helping them explore their outdoor interest, not only being mentored by Stiles and then becoming a mentor themselves it’s important to their development as an outdoor leader, wasn't it interesting to hear how the Outward Bound instructor helped Grayson move through their uncertainty? The instructor changed Grayson's headspace through empathy and activity. While it was still difficult, the instructor and Grayson shared a powerful moment. Grayson's insights shed light on a powerful concept embracing discomfort and vulnerability in the outdoors. They highlight the importance of overcoming personal barriers and sharing vulnerabilities, which, though challenging, can foster bonds and personal growth. Let's get back to the interview with Grayson.

 

Joy

So, these next questions are kind of like we're trying to help our podcast listeners who may not be comfortable in the outdoors but they aspire to it. So it's kind of like...we want to get the dirt on being outside, like some of your perspectives. So what's your biggest fear about being in an outdoor setting?

 

Grayson

The dark. I love the stars, and I love how it feels when I'm, like, all cuddled up in my tent. But if I have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, no thank you. Especially when you're in areas that have wild animals.

 

Joy

Even with a flashlight and everything?

 

Grayson

It's just that I have a lot of anxiety. I'm like, something's going to come out of the woods. Something's going to happen. Nothing has ever happened, right? Nothing ever really happens. Like the animals are scared of you, you know, I mean, I literally...

 

Joy

It doesn’t help your anxiety, though.

 

Grayson

No it doesn't. You know, I'm just like, what was that noise? What was that twig snapping? Like, something's coming...but yeah, I just, I think, yeah, I mean, you have your headlamp, you've got your people for the most part. I guess it would be more if I was on a solo trip. I would be freaked out if I were to hear something.

 

Joy

I take it that caving is not an option.

 

Grayson

Well, actually, you'd think, I have been caving a couple times. The first time was very scary. Luckily, I had my friend Bronwyn Player with me who we went through this program together, so we got through it with some laughs. Definitely some type two fun. Then I went back again and had such...a much better experience and loved it a lot. I would totally go again. I don't think I could guide, but I definitely enjoy caving, which is interesting that you point that out. Maybe it's like the open woods.

 

Joy

There's critters in the cave, but it's not the same.

Grayson

It’s not yeah, there's like bats and little things.

 

Joy

There are the noises that are occurring or drips and yeah, whereas I can totally see like the first time I did tarp tent, I've always done tents. And so about ten years ago, Jerry Cantwell said, here, just use this tarp for backpacking. It'll be lighter weight for you. I was taking my nephew and I was like, paying attention to everything. But it's funny because a tent is no different.

 

Grayson

It's really not.

 

Joy

But there's something about being able to see. And I'd wake up and I look out. Whereas a tent, I would be like, ohh there’s nothing and I’d go back to sleep.

 

Grayson

You’re in a house. It’s your little tent. It's got four walls. You're protected. But really you're not.

 

Joy

You’re not.

 

Grayson

It's the same material. It's all the same. So it's really a mindset I think of just like, all right, nothing's going to happen. And if something happens, it's not because a bear comes out of the woods and bites my head off, that's not what's going to happen. You know?

 

Joy

Right. Although I think you bring up a really good point that I think a lot of people struggle with, like there's this intellectual knowledge, I know, I mean, there's going to be some danger, but really, that the bears bite my head off and I've got some protection. The chances of that happening are very low unless I'm out west with grizzlies.

 

Grayson

Right.

 

Joy

And yet my emotional state or my anxiety still will play tricks with me. And so it's the frame of mind that I've got to get myself into. And another experience I had, we had a bear that came along, a beach that I was at, and I was with the ranger. It was in Alaska.

 

Grayson

Okay? I was like, a bear on the beach. That’s cool.

 

Joy

I was just walking to the beach. Turned out it was a black bear, but we didn't know this because it was dark. Like you're saying. I was sitting on a boat, just kind of looking at the stars, and I saw something walking, and I thought it was a man at first, because that's what your mind goes to. But then you're in the middle of Alaska. So anyway, I started yelling out what I’m supposed to do. Hey, bear, bear and the bear did what it was supposed to. It turned around and took off. Yeah, but my ranger who was up in the tent, she's like, what is happening? I'm like, well, I just saw a bear. And so she kept me awake till 1:00 in the morning with the gun between us, because, you know, you have...and I was like, well, the bear's gone now. Why are we still awake? But I had freaked her out, you know. So again, intellectually....and she was the ranger. I was just volunteering. So it is an interesting dynamic that the dark can play havoc. And so how do I reframe myself so that I can sleep or do whatever I need to do?

 

Grayson

Now that you've brought up the beach, I'm just thinking of I also really don't like murky water. Murky water also. It's when I don't know what's there. That's my problem. And so I also try to think about well, I go, I go in the ocean, I go swimming in the ocean. There's terrifying animals in the ocean. Sharks come up to the shore all the time.

 

Joy

You know, you see those waves? The pictures now of them in the waves with people surfing.

 

Grayson

Yeah. And they just and they're you know, I mean things do happen very rarely but...

 

Joy

So murky water like swamp or lake.

 

Grayson

Like a lake, I really struggle with getting in a lake. I like a river. But the lake with like the still and it's dark and it's icky looking, but, no. Yeah, I would say that thinking about if somebody does have kind of that similar fear of like, I don't know what's out there, what's going to happen and also goes swimming in the ocean or it's been to the beach. I sometimes think about that. And I'm like, these animals are minding their own business. Let me just mind my own business.

 

Joy

That’s a good way to put it, Grayson. You brought up something else that research shows you're not alone in that murky water idea, and that people who've only swam in swimming pools are less likely to enjoy outdoor recreation, like paddling or swimming at the ocean because they can't see what's at the bottom. So that's one of the things, as a recreation professional, I've been trying to figure out. How do I get people more exposed to these murky environments?

 

Grayson

That’s such an interesting thing because the summer camp that I grew up going to, we had, a swim lake. We didn't have a pool. And so it was like sand and mud and murky and seaweed growing on the bottom. And I, I don't know, I never as a child, I never had those fears. I think maybe it's just now that I have, like you're saying, the knowledge that there are things that could happen to me. I'm not just like this kid with all of my like, whoa, like, oh, just do whatever I want, you know? Now I know that there's things that could happen. And, you know.

 

Joy

I'm just, frankly, grossed out by touching the bottom of a lake.

 

Grayson

Yeah, I know I'm like ewwwww.

 

Joy

You know, and again, intellectually, I know it's fine.

 

Grayson

Nothings wrong, it's just like, ewww.

 

Joy

If I put my Chacos on, I'm good. You know?

 

Grayson

Touching the bottom of the lake for me, that’s what gets me.

 

Joy

All right. So what is the most embarrassing outdoor moment you may have had?

 

Grayson

I want to have to...I don't even know. I have to think on that one. The ones that are coming to mind right now, I feel like aren’t embarrassing in reality. But were embarrassing for me.

 

Joy

That's fine.

 

Grayson

Well, But it was like when I was on my senior expedition, I was just having, like, this breakdown, and it was just a really vulnerable place to be. it wasn't so much as embarrassing as it was, just like I'm crying in front of all of my peers right now and freaking out and I don't know why, and I can't control it. In that situation, you know, everybody was able to be like, what can we do for you? And I didn't know them super well, except for Bronwyn, and, yeah, it was just, I mean, I wouldn't even say embarrassing. I would just say just a lot emotionally. Very vulnerable, you know? And sometimes that's what happens, you know, when you're in these groups. I mean, that was on our first day. We only did one night on this on our capstone trip with Jerry. It was the first night. I was just freaking out. And it happens, you know, and and when those things do happen and you're like, I want my mom or I want my sister, or I want my best friend, or I want my dog, you know, whatever it may be, you don't have those things.

You've got your people right here. And even though that was like so uncomfortable for me I was like all right well this is happening. I'm sitting over here in the corner crying by myself. We're in a group like we're in a circle. I'm hysterically sobbing. No one is saying anything. And I was like, just so you guys know, like, I'm not doing so well right now. And it took me so long to get there because I'm just embarrassed, you know? I didn't know these people very well. Most of them were men. I don't really interact with men too much. I went to the all girls camp growing up, all girls high school, all girls dorm floor my freshman year, and now I'm trans.

So I just, you know, it's a lot of hesitation for me already. And I think being in this industry, accepting the uncomfortable and the vulnerable moments that happen can just, I don't know, I feel like I don't even know if I've been embarrassed because it's just moments like that where I'm like whew.

 

Joy

Well, you're bringing up some really great things that I think our listeners also experience, right? Like if I'm having an emotional breakdown in the middle of something in front of a group, that may prevent me from wanting to do it in the future. So this idea of trying to work through uncomfortable situations and knowing that people have your back and that it's like you said, it just is. I was freaking out, I was crying.

 

Joy

And yet and yet you still keep going back.

 

Grayson

Oh, yeah.

 

Joy

You still keep putting yourself out there. And I think that's a key thing to getting comfortable in the outdoors is if I can't get myself out there and I have fear and risk, I'll never go do anything because there's bears or because I can't pee in the woods or because I'm going to have an emotional...I might have an emotional moment. So you characterized it well. It’s being uncomfortable. Yeah. As opposed to embarrassing at the same time. There is a shame. Like, sometimes I feel an internal shame.

 

Grayson

I definitely felt shame and you know, I'm. I'm sitting here being very vulnerable. You know, stereotypically, males aren't really raised to express their emotions in that way. And I think that this industry has done a really good job of kind of reopening that and being like, why is this happening? Let's really talk about our feelings and like, it's okay to have feelings.

I think just, you know, it's hard, it's hard to, to be vulnerable and to...I have trouble crying in front of my roommate and best friend, you know, and, I think a lot of people struggle with that.

 

Joy

And then you're in the middle of woods with people you don't know, and you're crying.

 

Grayson

It’s dark. There could be a bear ten feet that way. And I'm having a panic attack in front of my professor.

 

Joy

Sorry, I'm not laughing.

 

Grayson

No, it's not what it is. It's type two funny is what it is. It's just funny like, you know, and I look back on that and I'm like, I really was not okay. And then...But I am okay.

 

Joy

Yeah.

 

Grayson

I'm fine, you know. And actually, funnily enough, that happened at the campsite that I was at as a freshman on an Outward Bound course because we were on base for this trip. so I was literally in the area that I discovered my passion for this, and I was like, oh, I want to go home. Don’t make me stay here!

 

Joy

Well, thank you for sharing that. I think that's the key thing is the vulnerability and and recognizing the emotional turmoil that you may be going through as you're struggling and persevering through something that can be uncomfortable. or challenging.

 

Grayson

Yeah. It can be really bonding for a group, too, you know, obviously that was a really big struggle for me. But, you know, the next morning we came together and were able to make some decisions that needed to be made. And we all, you know, were just like, if one person is uncomfortable, let's come up with a new plan. Let's come up with a new idea or a new route to take.

 

Joy

Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay. This is going to change the tone a little bit. What is a must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment? Like you could never leave home without it. What can’t you live without in the outdoors? What would you like... You're kind of like...You're going. You've got to take it.

 

Grayson

Journal and the pen.

 

Joy

Tell me more.

 

Grayson

I have filled up so many journals from my time on Outward Bound and in the outdoors. It's just so even if I'm just like today we had oatmeal with raisins. Then we hiked ten miles. Now I'm tired, you know, just like. Right? I love looking back through those journals and I try to get really detailed with how I'm feeling. You know, sometimes I don't have time. I always like to write a little something down. But, I mean, I open up those journals from 2015, 2016, my letters to myself from whatever. And, I can see, like the mosquito that I slapped still there from five years ago, you know, like, it's just cool. It's just, you know.

 

Joy

That’s very cool.

 

Grayson

And I feel like my experiences are just in this little book.

 

Joy

Does it bring back the emotional part? When you're like, when you are reading some of the stuff. Does it bring you back to where you are?

 

Grayson

It does. Yeah. and, you know, on both of my longer courses. So I went on the 30 day in Oregon when I was 16, and then I went on a 14 day in California in July of 2021. I think I was 20, maybe I just turned 21. One person on both of those courses had to be evacuated for completely different reasons. One of them was mental health related, and it was really, really hard. And I wrote all about it in my journal. And sometimes I look back on that and I'm like, wow, like that happened. And you know, that happened to that person. And that also happened to me. you know, there's just a whole lot of emotions in there. And also it's really, really cool to see the growth and myself, you know, at the time, I was going by a different name, different pronouns, you know, and I didn't know that, that that was, you know, not who I was. And I always had kind of felt uncomfortable but just looking back at those journals and, you know, I would do little drawings on my solos and I can see and I am I do, I do some art. I did a lot of art in high school. And so, like sketching my little like, you know, we have solo reflection time for 20 minutes, and I sketch my view and I go back and I look at that and I'm like, I remember that view, you know? So I guess that's not even really like technical gear. That's just...but I

 

Joy

No. But it's a must have.

 

Grayson

It is a must have. Yeah, it's definitely a must have.

 

Joy

I can appreciate that. I was going to ask you about if you did art. So I'm glad you expanded a little bit because there's research out there on journaling and it's power for learning and then connecting and then seeing the growth. So I appreciate you sharing that as your must have. Last question for you is what's your favorite local spot in Boone to go be in the outdoors?

 

Grayson

I've found a lot of little spots on the Blue Ridge Parkway. They’re secret spots.

 

Joy

Okay, you can keep it secret.

 

Grayson

However, I will say if you drive the parkway even like ten minutes down and you see a little gravel pull off, you can find a waterfall, you know, like, so I've. I mean, there's a bunch of little waterfalls and creeks that I found that are definitely not unknown to the public, but, I couldn't even tell you if I wanted to, because I don't I couldn't. It would be like a coordinate thing.

I would say if you drive up and down the Blue Ridge Parkway, you can find a lot of good spots that are kind of secluded, and you can bring out your journal or a book and read by a little waterfall and skip rocks. Yeah, the parkway is definitely where all of my spots are.

 

Joy

That's why I like the parkway, too. Like you say, it may not be secret, but it feels secret when you're there. You're away from...

 

Grayson

It feels secluded and you can, like, go up to an overlook and there's a trail that, you know, where does this go? Who knows? You know. And then you find something and then you remember where it is. And I'm like, I'm going to go back there next week and read my book. I think it's just really about exploring what we have out here. Boone is just such a great place to explore nature and get connected to that community.

 

Joy

Absolutely. Well, what I'll do for our listeners is I'll put a link in to, North Carolina Outward Bound.

 

Grayson

Yeah. For sure.

 

Joy

If they wanted to get into it, is it best to take a course first or go work for them?

Grayson

So I will say, I worked there's a logistics coordinator last season, and there were a few of us that had been on a course prior and a few of us that hadn't. And I will say that the people that had definitely were a lot more aware of how important our job was and how we really needed to be on top of things. Not that the other people weren't. It was just like, I know what they are doing out there. I know how stressful it can be. So me being here on time with this water and this food is like so important. I can't say that it's, you know, that you should or you shouldn't because it's, you know, it's an expensive activity.

 

Joy

It is.

 

Grayson

There are scholarships and things. But I would say if somebody is looking to be an outdoor educator and has like, nothing, no experience at all, taking an outdoor educator course or even just going on a normal, even just a week, you know, just kind of getting a taste of what it is or just going and backpacking with your friends or going camping even like at Price Lake.

You know, it doesn't have to be so crazy. But, yeah, I mean, there's people at Outward Bound that majored in finance, you know, and I, I asked somebody once, I was like, oh like, what did you study in school? He said, accounting and finance. I was like, well that's okay. Like how did you get here? He's like, well, I just didn't like it. I like this better. Like cool. Like, you know, it's just everybody is from everywhere and it's really cool to be a part of it.

 

Joy

It's such a great point. So Grayson, thank you for your time today. We look forward to seeing what you do in the future with Outward Bound.

 

Grayson

Yeah, I appreciate it.

 

Becki

Participating in an Outward Bound course offers a valuable opportunity to cultivate skills and forge connections with fellow outdoor enthusiasts. One noteworthy aspect we'd like to spotlight is Grayson's essential outdoor companion. Their journal, a nature journal, serves as a record of observations and reflections distinct from a traditional diary. Through nature journaling, we can deepen our understanding of the natural world and gain insights into ourselves. Consider taking up nature journaling. It's a journey of discovery, waiting to unfold both in nature and within yourself. As we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on our bound, the fun scale, and journaling. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Grayson for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us. The Appalachian Atrocity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Battista, and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks from App State University Communications for his exceptional work behind the scenes. If you would like to reach out to us, you can reach us at podcasts@appstate.edu. We leave you with the following quote. The greatness of a community is most accurately measured by the compassionate actions of its members. Coretta Scott King.