#56 Embodied Movement with The Movement Monk Benny Fergusson

Benny Fergusson joins us on the pod today. Benny is the founder of the The Movement Monk Project and long time friend of SuperFeast. The Movement Monk Project is a method of functional movement, developed with the intention to restore the body to its natural powerful state. Benny guides his students along the path to physical mastery, empowering them to discover how to become injury resistant, highly flexible, strong and fluid in the way they move. Benny has been working as a physical therapist and movement teacher for over 16 years and is also a master practitioner of Neuro-Linguistic Patterning (NLP). If you're interested in living a long, vibrant and pain free life today's pod is for you!

 

Mason and Benny discuss:

Embodying your own unique expression of movement, putting the 'you' into any exercise or practice you participate in. Making it your own. The importance of self inquiry in your movement practice, getting clear on what personally inspires or motivates you to move in the way you do. The value of looking within, non comparison and jealousy. Approaching life from a parasympathetic state. Experiencing love and gratitude for the gift of having a physical body and moving from that space. Perceiving the frequency of existence. Moving from your centre. Tension in the mind reflecting tension in the body - "tension is just often a symptom of conflict between the body and the mind." Reaction vs response in life and in movement. Proficiency in practice. The quality of one dictates the quality of all; in movement and in breath. Strength and flexibility; are they the same thing? "strengthening the body is about moving the body under better control."

 

Who is Benny Fergusson?
After living with chronic scoliosis & pain for years, and getting no lasting relief from mainstream fitness and therapies.. Benny embarked on a journey to heal his body and get to know himself better. Through years of research and the practice of movement & meditation arts, Benny found a way to restore his physical freedom, leading to profound personal growth. Benny now shares his findings with his students at MovementMonk.xyz.

 

Resources:

The Movement Monk Website

The Movement Monk YouTube

The Movement Monk Facebook

The Movement Monk Instagram

 

Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?

 

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Check Out The Transcript Here:

 

Mason:   (00:00)

All right. Hey, Benny, you've gone for... You've dropped-

 

Benny:   (00:04)

I just jumped the gun, didn't I?

 

Mason:  (00:05)

Yeah, you've jumped... No, that's good. You've dropped your hydrogen, your molecular hydrogen, into your water and that signifies we are officially on as our water gets effervescent with the reaction with our hydrogen with the water ready to be the ultimate antioxidant entering in through out, into the deep nuance of our cells and our brain. On top of, you're on the tonic herbs, people don't realise how much the antioxidant potency there. Also, through the movement that you've got taking stress off, tonic herbalism, training systems in order to take stress off and not create excessive inflammatory cytokines. And then, grounding, getting earthed and then hydrogen. A very good combination of not being overly oxidized, and that's an intense antioxidant right there, the molecular hydrogen we've just dropped in our water. Cheers.

 

Benny:  (00:55)

Cheers.

 

Mason:  (00:56)

Let's get that while it's really fresh.

 

Benny:  (00:58)

It's like it's steaming.

 

Mason:  (01:02)

Welcome, man.

 

Benny:  (01:04)

Thanks for having us.

 

Mason:  (01:05)

That's our first SuperFeast pod.

 

Benny:  (01:09)

Yeah.

 

Mason:  (01:09)

I think for those in the SuperFeast community, Benny is a really, really good friend of mine. My movement mentor and we've known each other... It must be seven or eight years now.

 

Benny:  (01:20)

Yeah. I recon It's pushing eight. Yeah.

 

Mason:  (01:22)

Yeah Pushing eight. And so we're going to be talking about, well let's dive into it cause I don't know really completely know where we're going to go today, but what's really...

 

Benny:  (01:32)

Lots of topics we could cover.

 

Mason:  (01:33)

Well what's tickling you at the moment in the, in maybe just if... Just share with people. Because when we talk about movement, are we talking about primal movement? Are we talking about ancestral movement? Are we talking about the fitness industry? Are we talking about lifting weights, CrossFit, Parkour are we in a functional movement? Is that what we're talking about here? Or as your brand name Movement Monk says, are we talking about like more Shaolin style movement, TaiChi, Qigong. There's so many things that there's so many like blanket statements, terms that we can use for movement. So maybe just give, we'll get some people some like bread and butter context of what you, what we mean by movement.

 

Benny:  (02:16)

Yeah. Well our, first of all, I will say that we're talking about your movement. So...

 

Mason:  (02:22)

you're talking about Mason's movement today.

 

Benny:  (02:24)

Mason's movement. Whoever is listening, like your individual movement expression and all these systems are great as long as we bring yourself to it first and there's a, that takes you on a whole labyrinth that like I've done lots of functional fitness and I started a long time ago as a personal trainer and not making that any less than where I am. But like back in those days I was doing kettlebell lifting and I suppose functional type training, maybe CrossFit type training before CrossFit was even a thing. And that was my way of expressing my body. Definitely led me down a path of some deeper questions.

 

Mason:  (03:09)

What was your Gym called in Melbourne again?

 

Benny:  (03:11)

Cohesion.

 

Mason:  (03:12)

Cohesion that's right. yeah, that was a pretty, that was a rad space.

 

Benny:  (03:15)

It was a cool space.

 

Mason:  (03:16)

In that and you had the big ass tires and the ropes sitting everywhere, people doing like handstands and monkeying about you walk in you go wow, yeah this is a place where functional movement in accordance with the way that the human body was designed to move like that this is a space where I can go and like segment my life and do that movement and therefore move properly and healthfully. Like why would you move away from that?

 

Benny:  (03:43)

Yeah, that's a really good question. So the, I reached a point of somewhat of a conflict of what I perceived people needed and what they were asking for. And this was quite a challenge because at the end of the day, even though we did.. Pardon me, what I saw as an upgrade to the traditional gym setting of machines and treadmills and like I suppose the going in with your headphones on and not connecting with other people. And we created a place that was all about like movement and philosophy, kind of like the Greco Roman gymnasium. And so, but the challenges with that was the environment that it was in. We were still a gym. People would still come in and get their one hour, 30 minutes or 45 minute kind of workout and then they'd go out into their world. And what I noticed is that we're bringing in their habits, their stresses, their, like all of the things that were challenging them and then putting exercise on top of it.

 

Benny:  (04:47)

So that was then like if you imagine that you've got something that's bound up and then you do something that is like muscular activity and causes contraction and all that sort of stuff. Intensity based. Everyone wanted an intense workout to get a sweat on to get those endorphins. But then you notice that things accumulate in the system. So this is when I started to ask deeper questions of, okay, I don't want to be part of accumulating stress in people that are already stressed. We need to start to be able to balance that equation. It's not to say we need to go the whole other way. But there needed to be education on the way that we relate with the activities that we're doing with the body. So it's not necessarily a change of do a different exercise style or this exercise style's bad or that exercise is superior to the other thing.

 

Benny:  (05:40)

It's more so how do I relate with the thing. And I noticed there's a really, really interesting thing that comes up when just the relationship that we have with our body and then the way we apply it to, that the way we use it, particularly through physical exercise, structured physical practice. And this can come out in CrossFit, it can come out in yoga, it can come out in Qigong, it can come out in all sorts of different practices. Like the fundamental thing that I intend to connect people with is what's my unique way of expressing myself through that thing. So then the mind and the body can start to be in a more harmonious relationship.

 

Mason:  (06:19)

Do you find it's a difficult, and I kind of, I don't know, I'm fishing cause I do find this, but if you go into say something like CrossFit, which we've had James Newberry on the, on the podcast is a great CrossFitter like I mean he's fifth strongest man in the world, and talks about like skeletal variation and things like that in his CrossFit gym and so things are like moving like that. However, like that's a fortunate gym to be walking into in the CrossFit world. But what I'm thinking, what you're talking about is like presenting yourself first, your own personalised, unique intention based. You can't help but go really cosmic with your own intention and who you are when you get into the essence of what we're talking about.

 

Mason:  (07:06)

Very relevant, very relevant to your life and where more importantly you don't walk into a CrossFit class and all 30 people in there have the same personal physical expression goals for when they're 70 or 80 years old, therefore it's not personalized enough I'd say in my opinion a lot of the time. But going in first to like a judo dojo, Brazilian Jujitsu dojo, a CrossFit gym even a yoga class and trying to make hoping that that space gives you what you need in order to tune into what is personally required in your tailored approach and explanation of your own body. I find difficult, I find it's not many places that are going to completely offer that, like the amount of time and space because it is often just a half an hour, an hour and they want, you need to, you're given something to do during those times.

 

Mason:  (08:02)

And I think this is what's tripped me up over the years and where it's just led me that constantly like just can't avoid for me personally that going into my own unique space. That is a personal practice exploration in place of exploration. So I can really get to know why do I want to be strong and what is strength and how does strength relate to flexibility and what is flexibility to me and start weeding out my own, I like superficial goals, but I like them when they're relevant to me. Now I don't like old ones and I especially don't want ones that I've adopted through the culture that I've, I live in.

 

Mason:  (08:39)

So I think it's, what we're talking about is having a work of what I like. What you do is you allow for the creation of that sacred place where you get in touch with your own body, or practical place even if sacred isn't the word for you where you can get in touch with what's real and what's not real and what's relevant and and you can explore who am I in that in that space and then go on, apply that real knowing of who you are to the dojo, to the gym, to the yoga class.

 

Mason:  (09:11)

Very, very key concept because I think I've found myself in this conversation quite often. I didn't make that a nuance and if I didn't have that progression. And I found myself getting a little bit like scoffy towards the, what the dojo is we're offing and what the gyms were offering. When it's not, that's not the problem. you have a personal responsibility when you step into some crazy fucking asana practice to be able to navigate your body through it so you don't like jam up your shoulders going through your going through your sun's and whatever, whatever it is. So this is what we're talking about in this in this instance on a very practical level, which is what I like and I really want to hit it for everyone because it seems like, yeah, I do that in my gym. I do that in my yoga class, but it's like I'm just like, I guess suggestion that there is, there is another place that you can personally explore and procure and it exists even when the gyms and the dojos and the yoga teacher goes away.

 

Benny:  (10:17)

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And a question like, because it's... The thing with, because effectively what we're talking about here is perception. My perception of my relationship to physical exercise, physical activity to my body and all this sort of thing. And the thing with the perception is that you go into these different communities and we'll all kind of, this is not about right or wrong, but we'll often go what I'm doing is, is good for me.

 

Mason:  (10:48)

So this perception kind of like in there, you can kind of look at it from another angle in terms of your perception of it. Therefore what's motivating you to go and do these things in the first place?

 

Benny:  (10:57)

Yeah, totally. Totally. And I would then question the difference between motive. Like motivation and inspiration. So like if these things, these cultures that we exist in therefore got their own motives, then it's clearly externally visible. So if you go into it and you try to take that into your body it's like trying to kind of force something in like a, what's the term, like a round peg in a square hole and that sort of thing. But if you develop the inspiration inside, this is my intent toward this thing, then there's an opening, there's an allowance for you to use that as a tool rather than a tool using you.

 

Mason:  (11:39)

I mean, and having I think in that instance we were, we were talking with Jenny a little bit about it. whether you're looking at a system that's rather new and maybe not so complete like CrossFit and complete in my instance compared to something a very traditional Taoist or yogic system that has many, many nuances and layers and thousands of years of like making it kind of complete.

 

Benny:  (12:09)

Yes.

 

Mason:  (12:09)

No matter what you need to have respect for any world or system or technique you go into, whether it's CrossFit, whether it's Taoism, there's, you've got to have a respect for the knowledge and expertise within it. But as you were saying then where, what's the, what's the key like when do you become susceptible to the identity? it's like the real, and it's pervasive and it's, and to an extent it's really nice to identify in the beginning with like I'm exploring whatever CrossFit or Jiujitsu, I'm exploring Taoism.

 

Mason:  (12:45)

At what point does it become enough and this, because whether it's a skill or whether it's because you have that connection to your own inner like intent, you can actually go in and navigate that system and then emerge from that system without having the tattoo across your forehead of like, I'm a Yogi and I go, I'm this or that. Not that I don't find it's bad to use these terms. I talk about Taoist tonic herbs and my systems, but more and more it's that slipperiness of knowing that I don't identify that word can completely go away. And I think the people who were the original Taoists and yogis, the reason they were, people needed some way to like encapsulate them and label them. Wow.

 

Mason:  (13:25)

These people let their following the way of like this, okay the Tao, the Taoists these people are yogis. And I think that's what then paves the way for the students of the future to get lost and not achieve what the original masters were able to achieve because they identify with a system or a label or a thing which makes you, it makes you rigid and therefore rigidity is going to like, yeah, it's going to inhibit your way forward. Right?

 

Benny:  (13:53)

Yeah. Well one thing to consider is like the rigidity is all a reflection of consciousness, is all a reflection of our relationship to the things. If you look at any system, like whether it's CrossFit, whether it's Taoism or some kind of ancient mystical form of some sort of energetic practice or whatever it is.

 

Mason:  (14:14)

TaiChi falls into that.

 

Benny:  (14:16)

Totally like we're in this age of where information is abundant, it's addictive, it's everywhere. Like, and we can start to at least think that we know what things mean. Like we look at CrossFit seeing 10,000 examples through social media and the internet and all of that sort of thing of what CrossFit is. So then you get this person and then they go, "oh yes, I resonate with that". But then they're only seeing what they want to see. when, if we were to look at how CrossFit emerged, it was sort of from, at least my understanding, it just happened, it was a system that they were using that they've found was working and then it caught on. Other people got more and more into it and it got more and more popular. And then they picked up some athletes and special forces people and all that sort of thing. And then they're like, yeah, I do this and I do that and then we get all these people. Then that aspire to be that image but if you could just look at it like really it was like this essence of people wanting to get the most out of their fitness. Like how to kind of make fitness more measurable, more challenging, more quantifiable because we came from this era of like bodybuilding and aerobics and all this sort of stuff. So when CrossFit came in as an idea, it was a revolutionary concept to go from like a long steady set cardio or like heavy weight training to bring it all into one thing.

 

Benny:  (15:46)

So like at one level it's a wonderful thing if we know how to use the dosage of these things. And so like what I would say is for someone to go into any of these systems, you need to go with all eyes and ears open and listen to how that's not just relating with your interpretation, like your perception of the thing, your relationship. And I like how you identify with it but, what's your body saying as a result, not just from workout to workout or practice to practice, but in a macro perspective over the course of a month. Listen, "what are you feeling body? "Over the course of if you do something for a year, over the course of a year.

 

Mason:  (16:28)

That's kind of what I'm talking about in the catch up in the place that I'm working on, my body is the place where I go and do these things. Too many people are absolutely annihilating their body in yoga practice because particularly yoga sequences are often designed for people with particular skeletal structures. And so people go to the yoga in order to feel their body and do to an extent because they're actually in their breath and feeling their body and activating the body. So this then noticing and moving primary Qi. However you're talking about after the practice or in and around a month of that practice, going and feeling how your body is relating to the way that it's moving in that dedicated time, which is people like, well, no, I don't need to do that because I go and do that at CrossFit or at yoga.

 

Benny:  (17:14)

That's why I do it.

 

Mason:  (17:15)

That's why I do it. It's like, yeah, but you're outsourcing, you're outsourcing the time, which I agree with. When you're a busy mum or dad and you've got kids and a job and you need to be able to go...

 

Benny:  (17:28)

You don't want to think about it.

 

Mason:  (17:29)

And you want to go and segment, and I'm like going, I'm like throwing stones. What it says like he who judges say well, whatever, whatever it is.

 

Benny:  (17:35)

Will throw stones.

 

Mason:  (17:37)

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, so I definitely haven't mastered this by an extent, but it's cause it was why I can talk to it with, with such passion. But sometimes it's like, oh gosh, I've got enough going on. I can't think about that. I want to be, I want to run through like a martial arts system that's going to help lead me to a little bit of like Nirvana in my daily life.

 

Mason:  (17:56)

Whereas I know enough times that it doesn't work like that. If the goals are super superficial in terms of just getting shredded, maybe you're going to be able to get so far. But if you start actually growing a little bit beyond that superficial, and that just might be because you are aware of your muscles at one time and then when you start getting aware of sinew and emotions relating to your physicality and then you also start getting aware of tension, you're going to want to go deeper. And at that point you realise, shit, I can't outsource that time. I really can't. It can be somewhat facilitated, but you need to, that needs to be facilitated by someone who has a lot of patience and knows to really let you go and do that on your own accord. Maybe just suggesting tools.

 

Mason:  (18:40)

Right? for you to go and do that you and you need to feel how you actually feel. That's really difficult to do because how it's... Then how do you interpret it? It's like, well sorry, develop your own system at this time of interpretation. Take things from yoga and Taoism and your fitness instructor, whatever it is, as insights but they're really, they are here. I mean their level of like, they, how they are human and how there's no possible way they could get an insight as to what's really going on within your human body. You need to develop the non-English based perceptive system of yourself and knowing how you feel, how you react to particular situations and what you need or to what, what do you need? Why do you need to be optimal?

 

Benny:  (19:32)

Yes.

 

Mason:  (19:33)

Why do you need to be strong? What the fuck does that mean? Total human optimisation is like a weird statement.

 

Benny:  (19:40)

Body hacking.

 

Mason:  (19:41)

because if your optimal, shouldn't I as a human, if I look at people who are, if I look at like not that I don't love like the optimisation culture and biohacking to an extent, it's really fun. But I technically, if I look at the like super optimised crowd, pew, pew, pew, ultimate biohacker, ultimately like I should, if they're optimised as a human, shouldn't I genetically look at those people and get this urging and yearning to be just like that person because they're optimised and I'm not like, it just doesn't work like that. I just they're exploring some stuff and using very shiny language.

 

Mason:  (20:21)

There's, I feel like we all, we all do, but why, what do you, what do we actually exploring here? Why do you want to live to 150? Why do you want to live to 200? These questions are very real. And I think what we're getting to as well as they're, they're going to emerge, say more so than be extracted these answers and they're going to emerge in, are they going to in real like a flurry of movement, sometimes, but they're also going to like emerge when the Lake is still. Yes. Right. And so that's like, I guess to an extent make it really simple. We're talking about stillness practice in personally designed by you. For you.

 

Benny:  (21:06)

Yes.

 

Mason:  (21:06)

Right?

 

Benny:  (21:07)

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Like, and you've touched on so many facets and maybe I'll pull some threads out.

 

Mason:  (21:12)

Yeah. Well, I'm going to just chill out for a minute.

 

Benny:  (21:15)

First of all, if we look at how do we utilise this wonderful vessel, because the body is a serious piece of tech, that most people don't have the user manual to even interpret, yet it's giving us signals all the time. And so like one thing when I first started working with people is we, we don't do a lot of movement. like we just, we observe the body just being able to look at the body and, and just listen, to not try. And I think with the thing with, if you go into any system, the system, it'll give you what you asked for.

 

Mason:  (21:57)

and I should probably talk about you, the people you work with I think are a combination of maybe people like maybe, I don't know if I was in this position, but people who have a hangover from being extensively in the fitness industry. I think that's a core...

 

Benny:  (22:14)

People who have done this, done that, done the other thing.

 

Mason:  (22:16)

interesting thing I was looking like, just like recapping in like, where my inspiration around tonic herbalism came from and a lot of it was from Ron Teeguarden and his teacher Master Park. And when you look at Master Park's story, he was a Korean who was just this hectic martial artist, it's like four black belts at like these actual serious Doritos, but hit this glass ceiling of like I'm not actually developing as a human. So he went into the mountains to find a hermit and eventually learned the way, how to unify with Yin Yang and learned Tonic Herbalism in order to procure his own dislike.

 

Mason:  (22:54)

I feel I know myself a little bit more now and I feel like it's that kind of I wouldn't like put you into like it, I'm not trying to say you're a Taoist hermit living in the mountains of Korea, but maybe to, to an extent we're all trying to find our similar way, in finding our solitude so we can explore but. There's that vibe there where you find people going, Oh gosh, I've gone like, I'm like this hectic, like muscle up one arm pull up, kind of like.

 

Benny:  (23:24)

I was totally that guy.

 

Mason:  (23:25)

Yeah you were. And like I can, I can do crazy lizarding along the ground and I can squat for this amount of time and I squat through this much every day.

 

Mason:  (23:36)

and then it's just like, now what? Not that it's bad. It's a progression. I think that was that, that was kind of like, I was kind of a little exasperated by the world, but then it took me a while to still bridge and I'm still a bit of a ratbag in terms of, I'm trying to like, like how do I still not look outside first for something that's going to motivate me to get in and explore my body. But I'm working in that working on that with you as you know. But then there's the people who are just in chronic pain, which is really, I mean that's your last program, right? And you haven't really, Oh, maybe it will be released now I can go for...

 

Benny:  (24:12)

Break Through Your Pain.

 

Mason:  (24:12)

Breakthrough your pain. We'll put that in the show notes because it just talking to you about that.

 

Mason:  (24:16)

That's, I mean I think that's interesting because when I met you, you were about to put out a handstand course and.

 

Benny:  (24:25)

Which I developed.

 

Mason:  (24:26)

Which you developed and then didn't release it. And then you've ended up working with people who aren't in the movement scene they're probably, maybe they've got a few specialists who are helping them out on their in their specialties. So then people who are living long term with chronic, pain you've had your crazy scoliosis, that you've worked through and without it being like just use this particular system. It's just five minutes of this a day, it's five minutes of that a day. And you can work through your pain. But actually teaching principles that will impart sovereignty for that person to then go and practically work through, feel what's going on in their body and over time overcome that pain. They're the kinds of people that you're working with and the people who are still into like hectically optimizing their movement and exploring it. Just creating that kind of, that center. I just wanted to bring that context before you go on.

 

Benny:  (25:18)

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a really useful context cause I've been in both sides of the coin. I've been in a high performance sporting, strength training or like strongman type kind of...

 

Mason:  (25:33)

And table tennis.

 

Benny:  (25:34)

I love table tennis. I still do actually.

 

Mason:  (25:37)

Didn't you Go into the states or something, the state final. Like who is that?

 

Benny:  (25:40)

Yeah, I was playing at a state level. For a time as a kid, that works against me cause none of my friends will play me.

 

Mason:  (25:48)

Oh, let's go play downstairs after this.

 

Benny:  (25:49)

That's sweet.

 

Mason:  (25:50)

Yeah, be gentle on me.

 

Benny:  (25:53)

I'm a bit rusty. So yeah, it's all like very finite timing and rhythm with that..

 

Benny:  (25:58)

But um... So you're going to like, I love all that. I love that raw physicality and then I couldn't do it. So I had to look at a totally different way of relating to the body.

 

Mason:  (26:09)

Is this when you injured yourself.

 

Benny:  (26:10)

Yeah, yeah. Like that's when, and that was, it was an acumen... I hadn't noticed the whispers of my body so until I wasn't able to listen or maybe I was, but I wasn't choosing to and then it just turned into an all out scream. I'm just like, no fucking hell you can't do that.

 

Mason:  (26:29)

Is this the scoliosis?

 

Benny:  (26:30)

Yeah, totally. Like that was a manifestation of the pain and that sort of thing because I couldn't sit up straight, couldn't stand up straight, I couldn't breathe deeply.

 

Mason:  (26:40)

And this was, even though you were like climbing ropes like really quick and you were doing muscle ups and so you were seemingly ideal, you would have been able to like get like 100,000 on Instagram, like bang.

 

Benny:  (26:53)

Maybe.

 

Mason:  (26:53)

We've talked about this. You don't have the Instagram skills.

 

Benny:  (26:57)

That's true. That's true.

 

Mason:  (26:58)

Anyway. But yeah, I like that. That's the realm of it because that's one thing I've kind of, because I have, sometimes a bit of a no, maybe not these days, but for like two years up til two years ago, like a wandering eye when my watch someone like he knows anything. Rock climbing, ocean swimming, dislike, Parkour just been like far out, like I feel like I compare, I got, I've really, that's the level, that's what I've got to get back to.

 

Mason:  (27:23)

Like I can't just go and like, with my body surfing, I'm an avid of body surfer and my whole thing is.

 

Benny:  (27:29)

You're like a dolphin in the water.

 

Mason:  (27:30)

Thank you. And I like look, sometimes I look at like the, I'm literally looking at like the top 10 body surfers in the world. And I'm like, right, that's the level I've gotta, I've gotta get to. And so it's like, I've got this, it's about me and the pressure I put on myself and give an inch, take a mile. In terms of my what I, what I have to do, but it's also a bit of the projection for optimal health in the realm of physicality and just from, do not ever get jealous ever. You do not know what that ripped guy is dealing with in terms of tension, in terms of whether he can really lift his arms up and hold something above his head.

 

Mason:  (28:11)

Like there's like even the CrossFit kind of like arena, even in that like in the primal arena, I'm, you just claim little bits because like as you were saying, you had your scoliosis going on yet I'm sure people would come into the gym and be like, yeah, I really want to be like Benny. Benny's hectic in the gym. Look at the way he cartwheels and everything like that. Yeah. There's this silent scream underneath it and quite often it's an emotional silent scream. So I was like, don't project too much onto these like people that you see, like especially yogic ones that you see on Instagram.

 

Benny:  (28:44)

Totally. Yeah. Like I the thing that we're bringing out is that if you look at this concept of like be, do, have and like I just, I observed that, we're human first before we do anything, like we've got to look at ourselves at our level of being like, who am I being right now in this thing? And if I want to be someone else and that's my motive to do it, well then that's, you never know what it's like to live in someone's skin. And if you're so focused on what someone else has achieved, you neglect the purpose of even existing because you're not aware of your own inner inspiration for why you do things.

 

Benny:  (29:27)

And for a long time I wasn't, like I was doing physical practice because I was afraid of being judged of being like this young kid when I, it's like quite small and perceived to be weak and like I'm a sensitive guy, that's my nature. But I covered it up with muscle for a long time. So a lot of my journeys are being about reconnecting back with that. And now seeing that, well muscle for me that's moving house, that's picking up kids, that's like playing around, that's not getting injured or being more resilient to injury.

 

Mason:  (30:05)

That's other people's kids ladies, don't worry he's not taken.

 

Benny:  (30:08)

Yeah. So it's a fundamental difference so now the love that I have just for using my body is there, I just, if I'm crawling on the ground, if I'm standing, if I'm walking, if I'm breathing, like there's a love there that I experienced that's unquantifiable that I bring to whatever I'm doing. So it might look like, and I do a lot of physical practice, but for some people it might look like, Oh, he's training for all these hours a day. And he, this kind of, there's a discipline and an intensity and all that. I've got to do that to be that, but for me it comes from a totally different place. And it's something that I've noticed with, with all people who really thrive.Like you were saying like the higher level parkour people or body surfers or musicians or business people or anything like that.

 

Benny:  (31:01)

They've discovered their own way to it and like my thing is I've just realised that we've all got something in common. We've all got a body, and even if you are the top body surfer in the world, the top business person in the world, the top whatever in the world, we've gotta remember the basic nature of this body. Like we've got to have freedom of breath. We've got to be able to like relax our body at deep levels, while we're doing stuff not just on the couch?

 

Mason:  (31:29)

Well its something very interesting there. You said about like that inherent love of moving your body because that was important for me to remember to not just Poopoo what I was doing with my exploration of pure physicality because I was getting off my ass and moving and exercising and these are amazing things because I had momentum and there were obviously shreds of just pure spontaneous joy that I had because I was just, oh my gosh, I'm alive and I'm exploring and that and that's amazing. And like remembering that that's like, that's the inlet, that's the way the water goes. The path of least resistance for me to continue to cultivate and procure like my own practice because an inherent love, that's something I sometimes, especially when I'm busy, I really, it's the first thing to go and I fall into that.

 

Mason:  (32:13)

Like the movement is thing at a thing on the checklist. And so I either will become just like apathetic towards my practice or I'll just become complacent completely towards it or charge on and do it because it's on my list. And I've kind of like internally agreed that I'd do it. That's what's right. Rather than the practice Then just being to stop and pause and find that inlet. And why was like, it was a beautiful... a Joy to be in my body in the first place and a joy to move. And it's just almost too simple. And sometimes I feel like, oh gosh, that's feels like such a wonky way to fucking spend my morning. And I, that's like what's what comes out and it's, and I honestly have to just like, just hold on a little bit longer with my intent.

 

Mason:  (33:00)

Just hold on a little bit longer and find some spark like what where is that like that loving nature for myself. I mean, it's just works in the same, in every single way. Don't take mushrooms because they're going to give you immunity completely. That doesn't last for 30 years as an intention. It's because I love myself and you'd love the the herb and you'd love it. You love your expression of health and rah rah. I don't know whatever, like anything. Don't stay in that relationship because you got married and you, and you should, like, you find that love for yourself and that love for why it's beautiful to be in a relationship with the first place.

 

Mason:  (33:42)

And then if it works out then that pause over for the other person. So that's, I mean this is what we're talking about. And often that these are all really nice concepts. But then how do you actually cultivate that? We've done I've worked on a few of your camps and immersions and we've done like lots of handstands and we've done bits of like lizarding around. So I know my body is capable of like some things and my body's capable of like some pretty extensive standing meditations and all these things which are like, Ooh, awesome Taoist.

 

Mason:  (34:17)

Kind of like standing meditations and I like doing that because it's our last three month block that we did. It was like for the first month, this is where just going and getting it in a yoga class as a download here and there, it's great, but there's a dedicated practice or like almost daily for that first month it was, what is it for you to approach life from a place of a parasympathetic state and then explore that state...

 

Benny:  (34:48)

Yes.

 

Mason:  (34:48)

and allow the color of your approach and your extreme physical practice, your day at your work, being with Aiya, whatever it was in a state of being parasympathetic.

 

Benny:  (34:59)

Yes. That was, I... And this is what it takes. And then...

 

Mason:  (35:03)

That was like, and this is what it takes in order to like procure and cultivate. What's going to cultivate something? Consistency and practice.

 

Benny:  (35:11)

Yes, yes.

 

Mason:  (35:11)

So just again, you started going into like, "Where do we start?"

 

Benny:  (35:16)

Yeah.

 

Mason:  (35:16)

Can you start talking about in where we start, why you don't give things and practices, but rather you like to teach principles and then layer on practices to those principles?

 

Benny:  (35:28)

Yes, yeah. Yeah. So, what I have noticed the power of first, just touch on as we were talking about simplicity, and often it's discounted as "Oh that's too easy" or whatever. But if we really look into simple things, we start to discover that there's ultimate complexity. It's like if you take anything in nature and you put it under a microscope, you're just dumbfounded with how freaking amazing a leaf is. A particle of air, the structure of water. It's the same within all of us. So, if we start off when we have too many things to focus on, well then we get distracted from our essential nature, you know? So, just to link with also what we're talking about with like, to experience a greater sense of love for who we are, for what we're doing, for our bodies, for life.

 

Mason:  (36:29)

If what we're able to do with others, I know that's something we taught. It's like the ultimate cliche but you know, you've said it recently and I was just like, "Oh, like Benny's just owning that." You're like, "I just love being of service."

 

Benny:  (36:40)

Yeah, yeah.

 

Mason:  (36:40)

When you said that, I was like oh, fucking, that's really nice, Benny.

 

Benny:  (36:42)

Yeah.

 

Mason:  (36:43)

I really liked it.

 

Benny:  (36:45)

And that has happened because I've continued to discover ways of filling myself up, for discovering who am I? What do I like? And also holding that lightly of going, I can also grow to like this thing that I don't like, and why don't I like that thing? And like throughout this, what I've noticed is like love is not a word. You know, like we can, it is this era of you've got to be loving to yourself. And that becomes an identity in and of itself as well. But love is a vibe. It's a frequency. You know? And I know that that's a really cliche thing because people identified around that in the new age spiritual world as well.

 

Mason:  (37:27)

Yeah. I mean, I think even just the fact when you look at, we've got one word for it in English, there's four ways of saying it in Spanish, like 64 in sanskrit, you know, like there's like obviously we're talking about a frequency or something which has got nuance and you know, of course, different sides and shapes.

 

Benny:  (37:45)

Yeah, so the question then comes up, you know, when I look at it, and this is the same as when I work with people, is how do we tap into and actually perceive that frequency of existence? How do we perceive these fine things that make us who we are, that are not our language? How do we perceive this highly intricate, complex but very simple language of our bodies. And once we do, like we see, if you look at like, there's such examples that I think we can all relate to with unconditional love, like a dog, you know, like just dogs just, they just give love, you know? And yes, they're different organisms and maybe they have a different consciousness and all of that sort of thing. I don't know what it's like. But you know, the experience of love when that dog that's full of love, like you know, a dog that I grew up with in a relationship for some time, she would just come up and reach up and heart to heart, where you have this moment of connection and it's as my perception of my body's grown, I've started to experience the energetic transference between me and that living organism, you know? And I've realised that there is, we were just a complete vessel of energy and that's moving around us. It's moving through us all of the time.

 

Benny:  (39:14)

So if we start off and we try and do exercises just to fix this injury or do that thing and-

 

Mason:  (39:23)

Get stronger, get more flexible.

 

Benny:  (39:24)

Yeah, whatever it is, whatever the goal is. Not that it's bad because I love, I love physical exercise, you know, don't get me wrong, but I find it's really useful to start to just be simple and just see what's there. You know, like we would, let's say as an example of a practice we might lay on the ground, we might observe our breathing and just observe what comes up for us. So for someone, they might notice I've got certain physical restrictions like muscular aches and pains or I've got, and there's like a stuck-ness as I breathe, or when I come up, when I breathe, I get really, there's emotions that come up at surface. This came to me after I started Qigong practice, different Shaolin forms of Qigong a long time ago, and I noticed I got really angry while I was doing it and I was perplexed by this. I was like, why am I getting angry at this thing that's supposed to make me really relaxed and peaceful and cultivate Qi and all these sorts of things. I have these intellectual ideas of it, but I had no idea of what that actually meant.

 

Mason:  (40:37)

That's interesting. I mean that's the same as sometimes when people take Qi tonic, like Astragalus or even its more extreme like Ginseng and they're like, right, this is going to give me energy and they get tired. It's like yeah, you're actually starting to tap into something which won't, you know it's got its patterns but it's going to, your body is going to do what your body needs and you right now you need to be down-regulated for example, or right now, because that's an interesting thing with the Qigong. I don't know where you're going with it, but it's like, rather than go, oh, there's something wrong, it's going, that's interesting. Now, what's next? If I'm not going to be handed these results on a platter, I'm given, oh now there's something else to explore. Now there's another opportunity. It might be the 5% of the time where it's like that practice or herb is just not for you, but that's very rare. Quite often it's like, here's some material to work with. Now where do you need to go?

 

Benny:  (41:44)

Exactly. Exactly. So the thing if I link back to the Qigong thing is I might've thought that this is not for me.

 

Mason:  (41:52)

Yes.

 

Benny:  (41:52)

You know, and until I started to open my mind and I dropped a lot of the rigidity around, you know, this is the way to prove. This is the way to position my body. I just started to do what I could do. There was a real humbling in that. I banged my head up against the wall of trying to be something else for long enough until I realised that that just goes to more of that. And then I start to look at this art and go, hmmm.. There are fundamental ways of relating with this thing. There are principles underneath that I wasn't noticing.

 

Benny:  (42:28)

Just like the principle of moving from your center, as a simple example of instead of me trying to put more of my limbs in different places and try and force them to be there and be there and all that sort of thing, I just started to focus for a while on moving the center point of my body so we could say the hips or we could say like around kind of the lower abdomen area, you know, just to make it simple. And then I just watched how the rest of the body started to respond as I moved my center. And naturally I noticed that, oh, okay, everything's starting to move more together. So then there's less effort as I'm doing this thing. And then I noticed that, oh, when there's less effort, I'm noticing that there's more energy flowing. I'm at least perceiving these things. So, that's an example of a principle.

 

Benny:  (43:19)

So basically what I initially get people to do is simple things with their body and to notice how they respond or react to those things. So then we can gather more information because if anyone says to you listening, or anyone that I know what you need to fix you, call bullshit. You know, because they don't, no one knows what it's like to live in anyone's skin. And that's one of the challenges, is we're all, not all, but there are a lot of people, and this is what I experience when people come to see me, is they've experienced the result of delegation of their own self care for a long time. You know, they've delegated it to the chiropractor, they've delegated it to the doctor, they've delegated to the osteo, to the physio, to the CrossFit trainer-

 

Mason:  (44:12)

To the yoga studio-

 

Benny:  (44:13)

To the yoga studio and the instructor at the yoga studio, to all of these things, and none of it's wrong.

 

Mason:  (44:18)

No.

 

Benny:  (44:18)

But-

 

Mason:  (44:21)

It's like the best time to be exploring your health right now.

 

Benny:  (44:24)

Oh my God. Like it's just-

 

Mason:  (44:25)

Far out.

 

Benny:  (44:25)

It's just weird. It have such opportunity. And also there's a slippery slope on both sides of that thing.

 

Mason:  (44:31)

Of course, yeah.

 

Benny:  (44:32)

And so, here you've got all this wonderful information, these ancient teachings that are coming out and there's some people who are really genuine in the way they present it. But then here it is, is the average person has been highly hypnotised. We live in a hypnotised reality. You look at even like a traffic light, you know, like all that it takes to induce hypnosis is eye fixation and muscle relaxation and you can induce a hypnotic state. There's a principle by the way. So, if you look at that, the traffic light goes green. I look at the traffic light and kind of in my own little world and then all of a sudden I'm at my destination. How did I even get there? You don't remember because you were just in another world, you were in a hypnotic state.

 

Benny:  (45:15)

So on and on we can go through life, alarm goes off, get up, brush your teeth, do something with your kids or your family or whatever it is. Or if you don't have a family, you get up and you go to work or do that thing that you do. And then on repeat, we're kind of this in this pattern. And so even, you know, I've been self employed for most of my adult life, but still I noticed there's parts of me like get up, do you work, do your thing. I have to continue to check in and go, okay, what do I need today? And often we don't ask that. So what I look to do when people are getting started is to take them to a place where they can reconnect with what is happening in the present moment and get better and better at that. So then we can apply that.

 

Benny:  (46:02)

It's a reverse to a lot of the fitness and health culture of, here go do this class and get this thing and then your life gets better. But what I like to focus on is build a bridge from within your practice, but then apply it in your life and then it's a circular nature of like, life informs me. I come back into my practice, my awareness goes naturally higher when I'm just focusing on that thing. And then I apply it to this more complex situation. So in this example, when we did this work, when you were talking about that month of just focusing on your breathing and just focusing on increasing your perception of what it is to be in a parasympathetic or rest and digest state. Because a lot of the time people don't know that, you know, I didn't know that. I was in fight or flight all the time and that's why my body wasn't healing. And that's why tension was building up because my mind was like running hot, you know? And so when I went to do that Qigong, I experienced all that heat. It all started to come out because I started to, my intention was to relax and all that sort of thing. So it started to happen, but it's not always an easy process.

 

Benny:  (47:22)

You know, when the body starts to, like in this classic examples of this in say like Chinese Medicine, you get like cupping, you know, you're going, I've got this stuff going on. Maybe it's localised with your back or maybe it's with some of the organs or something. And you, the way cupping works or just an example of it, is you get a cup, it's a glass cup and they put it on the skin and then they heat the cup up and that cup causes like a vacuum and it draws up all like stagnant blood and energy and all sorts of different things out of the skin. So then at the end of it, it looks like you've had this epic battle with this giant squid. The cup marks are on your back and all that sort of thing. So-

 

Mason:  (48:03)

You see them more and more these days and lots of people are cupping and I think it's after Michael Phelps did it.

 

Benny:  (48:09)

Totally, like all these things become popular. So then, you look at it and if the untrained eye was to look at this, and the thing is, we're training our perception to be able to see things no longer as good or bad. So then we can naturally allow the body to be, to heal, to do what it needs to do to thrive. That's its basic nature, I noticed. We only impose the things upon the body. It doesn't do it to us. The body is so innocent. It's like a little child. Like if the child, if it spills milk or whatever, you know, it doesn't know that's a good or a bad thing. Only the adult comes in and their reaction teaches the child and then that embeds in the physical body and so we go through our lives and we accumulate these things.

 

Benny:  (49:00)

All these congestions, all these past experiences, physical in like not just imbalances but habits and emotional habits and thought habits.

 

Mason:  (49:09)

Tension.

 

Benny:  (49:10)

Tension habits-

 

Mason:  (49:11)

Tension patterns-

 

Benny:  (49:12)

All these things, like tension is just often a symptom of conflict between the body and the mind.

 

Mason:  (49:16)

And again, just consistency, right? It can be just so simple, but a little bit of muscular tension that correlates to a particular emotion that happens four times a day. It happens around a particular organ. Of course that's going to create a blockage of Qi and then a blockage of Fluids and a blockage of Blood. And of course that's going to be a little bit uncomfortable and give rise to further emotion and then all it would have taken is a little bit of more, you know, very simplistic conversation. But in theory the idea is, if we were just slowing slowing down on a regular, you know, two or three times, four times, five times, you know, six times a week just stopping, slowly feeling, you know, work. I can't really feel in that place. What is that emotion to keep, I'm going to get a sense of it, explore it.

 

Mason:  (50:01)

It's a very simple shit. It's very, I don't say like, you know, I know it's simple, of course, you know, it's like pulling teeth with myself sometimes. But nonetheless, I do what I can so that they don't continue to end up like a grouchy asshole of a 60 year old. I might still have my little angry outbursts, but I ensure that I know the pattern of tension where that's going. And I can, you know, you slowly but surely you start to be able to kind of, you know, doesn't at least not accumulate it, so you don't, so it doesn't, it doesn't explode especially on to other people or anything like that. That's just very simple. It's what the practice is about. And I like it because the way you approach it, I like, especially because I'm not practicing Qigong, not practicing a yogic technique. We can talk about the inspiration, where the inspiration that these things come from, but we don't need to be practicing Tai Chi. I don't need to be practicing Taoist Standing sequences. I don't need to be practicing Kung Fu forms.

 

Mason:  (51:06)

Although those things might occur and although there is respect from where inspiration came from. We talk about that a lot.

 

Benny:  (51:13)

Absolutely.

 

Mason:  (51:13)

You talk about where you fucking studied and of course, but what we're gleaming is, is the principles that are ensconced within those systems. Because quite often people think like, no, no, no, no. If you, if you're practicing Taoism, you need to do Qigong in this way and you need to take these herbs and then you need to do these kinds of dark retreats. And that's the system. Don't go outside the system. And to an extent that's true, especially when you're in practitioner clinical healing spaces. It's sometimes dangerous to go outside of the system.

 

Mason:  (51:52)

But when we're talking about procuring our own life and exploring ourselves, I feel like it gets detrimental very quickly when you can't go beyond the label and old system. Whereas at the same time, where's the respect for them? The respect is understanding the principles of what was being handed over by those systems and then staying dedicated to your own.... Cultivation of those principles being present in your own life, where relevant. I feel like that's very, I've been meditating on this for many years. I'm someone that gets very attracted, like a moth to the flame. I can get attracted to the shiny things and then get very dejected when I can't achieve them. But I sabotage myself from achieving them beforehand because I know that I knock. I know myself, I know that I'm not going to be happy at the end of that road. I know when I finally hold it, I'm not that happy. I'm not that happy with the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

Mason:  (52:54)

I know that, like extensively, and so then balancing out, although I like a little bit of it though, you know, balancing that out with this exploring the principality of you know, of movement and the way you know, the way tension works in the body and the way physical expression works and you know, that's what I feel is different here just in case people are like, what are you guys banging on about? Why do you care if I do very specific Qigong and I'm like well, I don't really care. But you know, I love practicing like Yin Yoga or a particular Yin Yoga sequences. But I mean you can take that practice away and that name away any day of the week and that's not going to touch me. I think that's like, in and around that, you know, can we start exploring what seeds, you know, are you exploring, especially with the chronic pain, you know, what principles are you exploring within the physical practice, you know, and stillness practice, aspect of that.

 

Benny:  (53:53)

Yes. So with chronic pain, you know, and this is a reflection of my own journey and then as I made my way out of this chronic situation, you know, and for those who don't even know what chronic means, it's something that hangs around for really generally a period of like three months or more.

 

Mason:  (54:11)

Hmm. Yeah. You were hurting.

 

Benny:  (54:13)

For a long time. We're talking years, you know, where waking up in the morning was not a pleasant experience.

 

Mason:  (54:21)

What about psychologically being a movement person?

 

Benny:  (54:24)

Yeah, the interesting thing that I noticed was, I was very good at suppressing my feelings. So this is the paradoxical nature of things is sometimes the mind just like, get on with it. This is where I didn't notice all the whispers. I didn't notice all of the emotions where I felt I needed to say something. But then I didn't want to be judged. So then I just put it down, I squashed it into some dark cavern in my body, which was really like around my hips. So all of these things, these chronic things that are happening, they tend to be a result of something that's happening in the mind.

 

Benny:  (55:09)

So if this is where a lot of modalities that don't address that fall short, and none of them, once again I'm putting down, but like if you look at say, I've got a tight muscle. So logic would say, and a common approach would say, well I've got to stretch that muscle or I've got pain in a certain area so I've got to stretch out in other areas, so then I don't get the pain.

 

Mason:  (55:36)

I mean it's still like, even you, you're the most, and you've been doing this for a long time, you're really advanced, you get a tight neck, you're like oh stretch out there and it might be relevant for like, you know, the 20% kind of...

 

Benny:  (55:47)

Exactly. Stretching is not the problem. But then within stretching, so like if we look at like within a movement, you know, and not just stretching, but then there's the way the human is being as they're doing the thing. And that will determine the outcome of the thing. You know? So for me, growing up I wasn't, I suppose the most flexible kid, but that was reflective of my inner essence. I can be really stubborn, but also that's a real strength, I can be tenacious as well. I needed to learn how to get to know that, you know, actually through my body taught me because it showed me when I was stubborn, because I would get tense, I would get pain, I would get all of these things. So then through my physical practice I started to look at, okay, how can I work with this essence of who I am and then allow that to start to move out more, I suppose expressively, creatively, adaptively through my body rather than this rigid manifestation of a habit.

 

Benny:  (56:51)

So like when I work with people with chronic pain or any, actually any stuck-ness, it doesn't have to be pain because like 9 out of 10 people that I've ever spoken to, something's stuck. Something's stuck within their own mind or their body and I like to see the two as the same thing. So I realised that we can't go into trying to address these things. These stuck things by trying to answer things that we do not yet understand. So yeah, we're often going into it. It's like, how do I fix this? How do I release my tight hip flexors?

 

Mason:  (57:29)

I was just going to say, we got that question to answer later on Instagram and it's almost like, I can refer you to this conversation.

 

Benny:  (57:35)

Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, how do I do all these things? Well, first you've got to know why the hell it's happening in the first place. You know?

 

Mason:  (57:44)