S1E119 - Spencer on Bike Packing Pt. II

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Spencer and Inmn continue to talk about bikes, how to go about planning a bike packing trip, and the usefulness of bikes in preparedness scenarios.

Guest Info

Spencer can be found on IG @spencerjharding or at www.spencerjharding.com

You can find cool bike resources at bikepacking.com, Gravelmap.com, Theradavist.com, RidewithGPS.com, and Bikepackingroots.com

Host Info

Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery

Publisher Info

This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness.

Transcript

Live Like the World is Dying: Spencer on Bike Packing Pt. II

**Inmn ** 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Inmn Neruin, and today we're gonna be talking more about bikes. Bikes, bikes, bikes, like it's a.... like it's 2005 and we're listening to Defiance, Ohio for the first time. Bikes, bikes, bikes, bikes, bikes. [Spencer laughing in background] And it's part two of a two part episode of about bike packing. So if you didn't listen to part one, you might miss some things, which is mostly about some stuff about gear, some stuff about bike travel and what the scope of it is, and some other content that you may or may not have context for. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo, doo, doo doo [singing a simple melody]

**Inmn ** 02:06 And we're back. Thanks so much for coming back on the show, definitely a week later and not twenty minutes later. Could your re-introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and just a little bit about what you do in the world?

**Spencer ** 02:26 My name is Spencer Harding. My pronouns are he/him/his. I work in various bicycle related things. My current day job is photographer writer, occasional editor at a website called theradivist.com. We do a lot of cycle related content. I have worked as a bicycle mechanic. I've worked as a bicycle tour guide. I have worked in bike co-ops, I've done a whole lot of shit bikes is the jist of all of that.

**Inmn ** 03:00 Yeah, cool. Cool. Well, we're just gonna...we're just gonna kind of jump right back into it from last week. So before we kind of get into the nitty gritty about how to plan a bike trip--you know, we've talked about gear for a little bit--let's just Let's start off with some good, like good feel heady stuff. Spencer, why is traveling by bike a cool idea?

**Spencer ** 03:31 A cool idea? [uestioning the question]

**Inmn ** 03:33 Or good idea. A fun idea? Is fun, or is it...Is it harrowing? Is it both?

**Spencer ** 03:40 Yes. There's always going to be a chance for all of that to happen. The big picture reason why I like biking as a means of travel is that it strikes a really good balance between walking or hiking. And traveling by vehicle, like train or bus or plane, you miss so much because you're really cut off from the world. And you're usually traveling at speeds that are hard to really digest what's around you. Whereas a bike, you're typically somewhere between three miles an hour and like 20mph. Unless you're real fast or going down a big old hill. So I feel that biking affords more of that connection and really seeing and absorbing your surroundings. Whereas I feel that walking is almost too in the weeds of that sometimes, and they just really want to get somewhere, in a way that cycling allows you to really, when you need to, you can really cover a great amount of distance in a effective amount of time and energy without having to resort to a motor vehicle or a large public form of transportation.

**Inmn ** 05:01 Yeah, yeah, I've always been really blown away by really how quickly someone can travel on a bicycle. It's like, you know, like, when me and Marie did our bike tour across the country, it took us two months to ride from Oregon to Boston, you know. And, you know, we were hauling it, we were riding like 80 to 100 miles a day.

**Spencer ** 05:26 That's fast!

**Inmn ** 05:28 Which is even more ridiculous because we absolutely had like 60 pounds of gear each, you know. And, but then meeting other people who were the really lightweight credit card tourer who rode from LA to Boston in 22 days or something. And I was like, "What?!" It was utterly incomprehensible.

**Spencer ** 06:00 And I'm going to tell you that I know people who have written from Banff, Canada to the Mexican border almost entirely off road in 16 days without any support, carrying all have their own gear.

**Inmn ** 06:13 Oh my God. Yeah. Okay.

**Spencer ** 06:17 So the scale of human capacity to move themselves and whatever they need by bike is incredible, whether that's like.... that's the upper echelons of endurance and athleticism, but in that same vein, it's bonkers, what is truly possible. But for people like you who are maybe doing less than 100 or like 20 to 30 miles a day, like that's super accessible for a lot of people.

**Inmn ** 06:47 Yeah, yeah. And actually, that's kind of where I want to start today's conversation is around like...it's kind of about preparation, but it's in the realm of...so, if I'm someone who doesn't have a whole lot of experience biking and I want to go on a trip like this, like, how do I...like I want to go ride my bike around for a month, you know, whether that's all on pavement or on gravel. How do I prepare for that? Like, if I don't have a regular workout routine or something like that? Like, what is that going to be like for me?

**Spencer ** 07:34 So are we talking about like, fitness here, then?

**Inmn ** 07:39 Um, I think like, yeah. I'm talking about kind of like bodily preparation, where it's like, I want to go ride my bike a long distance. I've never done that. What is that...what is that going to be like? And are there ways that I can kind of, I don't know, like train, I guess prepare? Do I have to? Will my body just like, do it on the trip?

**Spencer ** 08:04 Bodies are really good at adapting to things. And I've always felt the first week or so of bike tour, everything's gonna hurt a little bit. Like, obviously, there's a lot of muscles involved. Especially in your legs and your ass and your sit bones. Your sit bones are going to be a focal point of something that's going to be hurting and have a lot of pressure and possibly a lot of discomfort. So I think training...training is a poor word to describe what I think is necessary for bike touring. I think it's more of a conditioning. Like if you ride your bike to work or you ride your bike to the grocery store or like just to go run errands or like once a week with your friends like that's bike touring conditioning. It's just how much time have you spent in the saddle? And if you spent zero time in the saddle, something's gonna hurt. And this goes back to the first thing we talked about with gear selection was "Does your bike fit you?" Like, in a multitude of ways. And is it comfortable? And if you ride your bike a little bit, you're probably going to know if your bikes comfortable or not. Or maybe you don't. And sometimes you won't feel how you body's gonna hurt if you ride less than 40 miles. And sometimes those long days, things break down, skin gets tender, chafing happens, and that's totally different for every single person. I know people who ride like the smallest tiniest, hardest seats, and their sit bones are great. And I've got wild--not wild--wide childbearing hips personally, so I need to ride very wide saddles to keep my sit bones happy. And it's your hands, your handlebars, your grips. I was talking to someone recently and they were like, "My hands hurt when I run my bikes," and they had a bunch of old cloth tape that was reused from like four bikes ago. And I was like, "Well, you might need some actual handlebar grips. And this might help with the vibration." So I don't want to get too in the weeds of that, but your hands are gonna hurt, your butt's gonna hurt, your legs are going to be sore from pedaling. And that's...these are all things that are going to happen. And as you ride and travel for multiple days, adjusting your bike, adjusting how you sit on your bike, and adjusting the times and the distances that you ride is all a part of figuring out how bike tour looks for you.

**Inmn ** 10:33 Yeah, I remember in...it was the first two weeks of bike tour, were hell. Like, everything hurt. And like, I thought my knees were gonna explode. And like, I'd never written more than 40 miles in a day. And I remember being like, "I might have to give up." And then I made just a micro adjustment in how high my seat post was, like half an inch or something, you know? And the next day my knee pain just like disappeared.

**Spencer ** 11:15 So if you're privileged enough to have access to somewhere in your...where you live, that does bike fittings, a lot of times--we're talking real small increments--make huge differences as far as bike fit and comfort. And I'll be riding with a lot of my friends. And I'm not a professional bike fitter. I don't make any claim to be, but I've generally been around bikes long enough that I feel like I can be like, "Hey, what if you tried this?" And like, go over and adjust their handlebars. And then like, a week later, they're like, "Oh, yeah!" So, that's a hard thing to figure out. I feel like 15 years into bike touring, I'm now...I just got my sit bones measured for the first time two months ago to know exactly what saddle I should be riding besides anecdotally trying a bunch of them. A lot of it is trial and error. You're gonna have to ride your bike and see where it hurts, and then what do I do about that? And talk to your bike nerd friends or go to a bike shop that you trust and ask them what they think. They probably have some ideas. Or there's a wealth of knowledge. The internet's probably the worst place to go for a lot of that information.

**Inmn ** 12:21 Oh no.

**Spencer ** 12:21 I'd go to someone you actually know or someone who can see you. Because there's always somebody with a hot take on the internet about bike stuff, especially fitting or what's the best bike saddle or bike for dah, dah dah. And they're probably wrong, or they don't know your conditions. So go talk to someone you trust.

**Inmn ** 12:40 Yeah. Is it kind of.... And I feel like this is kind of something that I have seen as a trend that I see a lot on things that we talk to about people like on this show where it's like, there's these activities that seem really intimidating--and like maybe rightfully so--but it's like, I don't know...like your bike tour doesn't have to look like other people's bike tour. Or your setup doesn't have to look like other people's set up. You can adjust it for what you can and feel comfortable doing. Question mark. I'm asking a horribly leading question that I feel like I know the answer to but....

**Spencer ** 13:18 And this ties in with, "Don't ask the internet," because you're gonna line up with a Surly Longhaul Trucker and a bunch of gear that's probably not right for what you actually want to do. It's a good place to start or to maybe to ask more fine-tuned questions. What I always tell people, like if you have a bike shop in town, go to that bike shop--if you feel comfortable, and the people that you're talking to don't belittle you or like make you feel uncomfortable--go there and ask them a genuine question. They probably will help you in a genuine way. Or if you have a friend that's in the bike touring, ask them what they use. Maybe you can borrow gear. Because everyone...like if you look on the internet, there's such a plethora of sizes and different bikes and styles of bikes and styles of packing gear. It's just...I wouldn't even know where to start now. You know? Like, there's a bunch of websites. So I work for The Radavist. Of course, bikepacking.com is a great resource for reviews and gear. And they have...we both do long lists of like, "Here's a great bike for under 2k" or "All these bags" and dah, dah, dah. Bikegeardatabase.com is a great one as well. So there are a lot of things. And even Adventure Cycling does reviews as well. There's a plethora of stuff out there, but it's overwhelming. So you probably know a bike nerd in your life. And if you don't, go to a bike shop and find one because they're gonna at least pare things down, hopefully, for you to something that's hopefully more digestible.

**Inmn ** 14:44 Yeah, yeah. And it's funny to hear numbers like that get thrown out, which is my next question. How much does it cost to get to...like, I want to go on bike tour. I know my bike is like probably not the best condition. How much is it going to cost me to like, get on the road?

**Spencer ** 15:09 That is a very broad answer.

**Inmn ** 15:14 I'm sure. I'm sure.

**Spencer ** 15:14 So we talked about this last time a little bit as well, like, yeah, you can ride on any bike. I welded a tall bike out of a bike I pulled out of a trash pile and a bunch of conduit from Home Depot. And I strapped a bunch of shit to it. And that didn't cost very much money, you know? You're talking about hundreds of dollars, maybe. If you're not familiar with the network of bike co-ops that are in a lot of cities all over the world, so bike cooperatives are run collectively--usually--they get some kind of city funding or they're just donation based, but they're...imagine a little bike shop, and they're there to help you fix your bike. They usually allow you to do work trade. So if you can't pay or afford to, you can come in. They'll help you work on your bike, and you volunteer for a few hours and you pay off the debt. They have used parts. They have people who know what they're talking about and can help you with those fitment questions, with a gear question like "Why does my bike not shift? Why does the saddle hurt?" And these are your very like lowest bar to entry ways that you can get access to people who know about bikes and possibly gear--or recommendations on those things--or even get a bike to start with. A lot of them will refurbished bikes or they have a build-a-bike program where you go through the whole process of, "Here's a frame and here's a bucket of parts. We're going to spend two months and we're going to build this into a working bike. And you're going to learn how to do everything along the way." And there's a lot of value in that. And I'm sure we're going to talk about preparedness later, but knowing how every part of your bike fits together is kind of the baseline. So you're probably looking--I used to always joke and I probably need to adjust this number for inflation--but "there's no good bike under $300" was kind of the old adage. Either you get a bike for like $200 and you're gonna spend $100 on parts. Or you get a $300 bike that's ready to roll. Depending on what you're looking to do, that can be very true. And if you buy a custom touring bike, you can be easily in the thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, because the bike world is absolutely bonkers at the high-end.

**Spencer ** 17:28 Does that answer that adequately?

**Inmn ** 17:31 Yes, that absolutely does.

**Spencer ** 17:33 Let's put the bar at drag a bike out of the trash to take to the bike co-op and there's your free bike. So let's say $20 to $20,000 is a good range.

**Inmn ** 17:44 Cool, cool, cool. Ya, it's helpful to have a range of, you know, like a range of prices where it's like.... Because it's like, when I go...when I was trying to do research about like how to...like, a bike or something to use for touring, it was like, I went on and I was like, "Do I? Wait, do I have to spend three grand to get on the road?" And I was like, "Surely no. That's ridiculous." And like, yeah, there were things that sucked about it. But I took an old steel frame and put some mountain bike parts on it that I got at the bike co-op. And then a big thing that I did run into was wheels, where I was like, I think I need stronger wheels than I can find that the bike co-op for free. Or like for 10 bucks, you know? But buying new wheels was way unaffordable for me, for how strong they needed to be. And so I ended up building wheels. I just like built wheels from rims that I got at the bike co-op and some spokes that I bought. And it worked. [Said in a way that makes it seem like it didn't work] My rear wheel at the end of the trip, literally, was ripping itself apart.

**Spencer ** 19:09 Yep. I've seen that happen. That probably didn't have to do with your building, though. I mean, sometime you put that much weight on a rim for 3000 miles it just starts to [makes breaking sound].

**Inmn ** 19:29 Yeah, just starts to rip itself apart. Um, but yeah. Golly, wait, sorry. What was my next question? Okay, so how.... If someone wanted to plan a trip, like they're planning their first bike tour, regardless of where that is, whether it's on pavement or bikepacking. Like what...how...how do you start to go about planning. For people who aren't maybe more comfortable with the idea of just hopping on their bike and seeing what happens?

**Spencer ** 20:07 Yeah. A fun story. When I did that tall bike tour, I saw a photo of Glacier National Park. And I was like, "You know what? That looks cool. I've never seen those mounds before. "And I literally went like Portland, Oregon to Glacier National Park and Yellowstone. Google Maps, where do I go? Which I think was a poor decision because it just took me on highways. So at a baseline, Google Maps has bike directions, and that will incorporate bicycle infrastructure depending on where you're going. If you're looking to do a long distance route, if you're in the United States, Adventure Cycling Association, based in Missoula, they have a whole network. They're all mapped out. They've got all kinds of resources. They're well established routes all over the country. It's great because people will know what you're doing along the way. There's usually expectations of camping. Those things are mapped out. You can have a very reasonable amount of time or like mileage per day that set out for you that's reasonable, that will get you to resupplies. So Google Maps is your base. Adventure Cycling is a great second stop. If you're looking to do more off road routes, bikepacking.com has a bunch of maps. They have a whole map of the entire world of established routes with route guides. Gravel Maps has a bunch of stuff. A lot of these will wind up using a program called--and a website--called Ride With GPS--which is basically a mapping software--to do day rides or long tours, there's a ton of resources. Searching anything on Ride With GPS is an absolute nightmare. So it's usually a place you wind up once you've found a route you're interested in. The mapping works really great. And that's a great resource. Strava has something similar. They also...Ride With GPS and Strava have heat maps. So if you're looking in an area and you're like, "Well, where do people ride here?" you can look at those maps and it will show you a median of all the accumulated routes that have been ridden. So you'll see where places that are more popular for riding, and like, "Oh, I can write here because it looks like people have already ridden here." So those are good. Those are good resources. Sorry, dogs barking in the background. But yeah, there's there's a lot of long distance routes that have been around for 30-40 years, like the TransAm, Pacific Coast route, Tour Divide, which we talked about. So I'd be remiss if I didn't shout out Bikepacking Routes. They're a small nonprofit creating its own database of routes very similar to what Adventure Cycling was doing 30 years ago, but they're focusing on single-track and off road. I'm actually lucky to be a regional steward for them--or I don't know what the word is for it anymore. I manage route down near Tucson, Arizona for them that's on their map. They have a bunch of routes that cross the country north to south, east to west, lots of connectors, and all that stuff. So Bikepacking Routes is also a really good resource for off-road route specifically.

**Inmn ** 23:20 Okay, cool. Cool, cool, cool. Um, this is like a funny kind of thread to move into--or no it just makes sense. So we've talked about how to get started, we've talked about kind of the vagaries of what gear you need, how to start planning a route, and now, it's kind of a big question, I guess, but this seems perfect and wonderful but what are what are the limitations of bike travel? It seems like there aren't any. I can ride my bike over...like across the sun with the right tires it seems like. [Both laughing]

**Spencer ** 24:03 If you buy the $3,000 bike, you can actually ride on the surface of the sun, my dude. Yeah, so whatever...whatever marketing tells you is 100% real and you can do it ever you want. [Sarcastic. Switches to earnes in the next sentence] So limitations are going to be your capability. So that might be fitness or any disabilities. I can be in your bike. And that can be in various gear choices that you make, depending on how little or much you pack, what your gear range is, what your tire size is. But those limitations are things that can be built around. I mean, inherently your body and the amount of food you can consume and the lack of sleep you can deal with will dictate how far you can ride a bike in any amount of time. And those limitations can be vastly different for everyone. But typically speaking, I feel like a normal human can ride 20 to 60 miles in a day, depending on elevation. And then on most surfaces. So like fire roads are pretty common. Paved roads are obviously incredibly common. Single-track makes things more complicated too. But those are going to be--

**Inmn ** 25:31 What is single-track?

**Spencer ** 25:33 So, think of hiking trails. So like the width of your body. Double track you'd think car tires are gonna make the road. If you've seen on off-road stuff, that's what usually we call a double-track. Single-track would be a hiking trail. So just the width of your foot, kind of like your shoulder width. Pardon the jargon.

**Inmn ** 25:56 No worries.

**Spencer ** 26:01 So your limitations are gonna be set by the decisions you make in your route choice and your gear choice and your bike choice and then in how prepared you choose to be or what kind of fitness you need to be in for whatever you're setting out to do.

**Inmn ** 26:24 Cool. Um, what are...what are things that can happen on any kind of trip that people should be prepared for? Like, do I have to be like a master mechanic to go on a bike tour? Like if something goes wrong with my bike like, what...what are big, common things that people should kind of be prepared for, either in route planning going wrong or your bike having bike problems, or, etc...?

**Spencer ** 26:59 So as far as route or any of these things, you always need to be flexible, I think, is the most important part. Like things are gonna go wrong. Something is going to break. You are probably going to break. And it's going to be in how you deal with that and--not break--but you're going to get tired or maybe you fall down and scrape yourself or cut yourself. These are all things that happen when we're doing any activities or are the usual risks. So flexibility and being able to adjust your plans or not be rigid in those things. The cool thing about bikes that I really love is if you get one of those little multi-tools at wherever, there's going to be an array of hex Allen's [wrenches] from 2 millimeters to typically 8 millimeters. And those alone and maybe a Phillips screwdriver, so we're talking a multi-tool that probably has that as well, that's 90% of bike maintenance right there in those tools, which is pretty sweet.

**Inmn ** 28:01 Yeah, I was surprised by.... When I went on my last bike tour I got one of those bike specific multi-tools from REI or something, you know. And it was like 50 bucks or something. And it had a passable version of almost any bike tool that I've ever used, you know? I couldn't like take my pedals off or do bottom bracket work, but like almost every other tool that I needed was on it.

**Spencer ** 28:39 And this is what we're talking about with bike co-ops, if you don't know how to fix your bike or how your bike is put together, take your whole fucking bike apart andput it back together with the multi-tool. And then you know. Or figure out what you can take off with the multi-tool and then put it all back on. And then you're gonna know like, okay, if this breaks or this falls off, I know how to put it back on. And that's a little bit like hyperbolic. But I think knowing that...if you take a class on basic maintenance at a bike shop or at the local bike co-op, they're going to teach you a lot of things you can do mostly with a multi-tool on the side of the road, which is super accessible. You're not...if you go to a bike shop, there's like that last 5% of tools that cost like thousands of dollars and they're in a drawer. They get used like once a month and they're terrifying. And most bikes are never going to need to use those tools out in the wild. You know? But, never say never. So, most bike maintenance is just adjusting bolts, and there's usually going to be one of those hex sizes that's on a bicycle specific multi-tool. Or you just go get a set of L Allen keys at Walmart or Home Depot. Hell, Home Depot has them for free sometimes if you just, you know, walk out. But the biggest thing that's a concern is tires and, if you're using them, tubes.

**Spencer ** 29:12 Should you not use tubes? Convince me.

**Spencer ** 30:16 We're going to talk about the fact that tubes don't exist nearly as much as people think they do anymore. Yeah, it's a crazy thing. So first of all, let's talk about it. So you have your bike rim. So, the wheel consists of a hub, has all the spokes that hold the rim to the hub, and then on that rim, you're gonna put a tire. And the tire usually has a tube inside of it that actually holds the air and gives you the squishy loveliness that makes riding bikes a pleasurable experience. But there's lots of thorny things and nails and glass on roads and services that are trying to make that thing not hold air anymore. So the biggest skill I've known people to want to have for bike touring is being able to fix a flat tire. So that typically involves removing your tire, removing the tube, using a glue and patch that are available at any bike shop you have ever been to for like two bucks. You get like eight patches. So you can really extend the life of your tubes that way. It's not a fun process. You have to take your, usually, like take your whole wheel off. If you use tire levers, which are its own specific tool that you definitely have in your kit in addition to that bike specific multi-tool. Sometimes you can do it with your thumbs if you've got like rock climber strength, but you're probably going to scream and yell and curse at somebody trying to get a tire on or off at some point in your life. And that's okay. We've all been there. So once you patch at tube, you put it back in and you pump it back up. Bike pump is going to be something you're going to want to have. They make all of those little bike specific things in all kinds of sizes. I've seen people biking with like your floor pumps at home just like bungeed recklessly on the back of their bikes. They got tired of the tiny pumps they were carrying.

**Inmn ** 32:03 Wow. Relatable.

**Spencer ** 32:05 But, it's 2024. The tubeless revolution is here. It's been here for a long time. If you buy a new bicycle, you know, if you're getting into a $1,000 bike. If you're buying a lower-end bike, you might still be using tubes. Anything like more modern, getting slightly more higher-end, we're going to be running what's called "tubeless." So it's kind of like a car tire. So the rims and the tires are designed differently to mesh and interact with each other the way a car tire interacts with a car rim. Just pump it up. It makes a big scary noise and it pops in and locks the beat of the tire to the rim. Cool thing about bikes that you can't do on cars is you can fill it with a latex sealant.

**Inmn ** 32:58 The goo. Insert the good.

**Spencer ** 33:01 Yes, you inserting the goo into the tire. So with cars, rpms that care tires are at, you can't have anything in there that's sealed in for a long time because it affects the weight of the wheel too much, due the little revolutions in momentum. Bike wheels, for the most part, don't move that fast where it's noticeable. So they've develope latex sealant or goo, or goop. It's kind of like slime. You can get slime at Walmart that like works for like bike tires. That stuff sucks. It works in a pinch. There's better stuff we have nowadays, but basically what.... So the inside of your tire, it's just air at this point. There's no tube. You put the latex sealant in there. It stays liquid for a certain amount of time depending on climate. a,nd which brand you get. There's all kinds of different things. But basically ammonia, latex, and some kind of like glitter or rubbery compound. So what happens is if you've got a flat with a bike with a tube and a tire, the nail is going to go through the tire and then it's going to pierce the tube. The tube is going to go flat. You have to pull the whole tube out, patch the tube, put it back in. Hopefully it holds. With tubeless, depending on puncture size and a bunch of factors, nail goes in. You pull it out. You should have some liquid sealant in there. You move that puncture points to the low end so there's like a pool of that sealant. The latex sealant when it gets supposed to air kind of goopifies. And it will typically clogg most small to medium punctures without you having to do anything.

**Inmn ** 34:48 I mean you have to pull the thing out but...

**Spencer ** 34:50 You have to pull the thing out, but if it's in there, you can just leave it in there if it's not hurting anything.

**Inmn ** 34:54 I see.

**Spencer ** 34:57 A bunch of plug kits you can get as well. It's similar to like plugging a car tire. Those are like big things that look like strips of bacon that you like plunge in. And there's a whole host of stuff for that. But basically, you get.... This could be... Okay, tire choice. So there are tires that are more durable and there are tires that are less durable. And that's going to be how thick they are in various parts and how much sidewall protection they have. If you get a more durable tire for bike touring, it's going to last longer, it's going to be more puncture resistant, and it's going to do better once it's punctured to possibly seal that puncture. If it's a thicker tire with that sealant. If it's a really thin flimsy tire that's lightweight, it's probably going to get punctured or torn easier and it's going to be harder to repair.

**Inmn ** 35:52 I feel like this is the area that I kind of skimped on when I was on bike tour and I've never regretted it more. I changed.... I changed close to like, probably 60 flats in the course of two months. And so the really annoying part that you don't quite realize is, in a lot of cases, you have to completely unload your bike in order to fix a flat.

**Spencer ** 36:26 That's another part too. So, think about that in your baggage concerns, if he could lift your bike or get it off the ground and.... So tubeless is awesome until it's not.

**Spencer ** 36:37 So what goes wrong is either the hole is too big and you're just, all of a sudden you're riding, and you feel this faint white goo all over. It's usually kind of a milky consistency. It's sticky. You're like, "Oh shit, my tires, spuing sealant. I have a hole." Hopefully it fixes. Sometimes the puncture is just too big and it's like a tear. In that case, you can get your real crust punk skills out and you get the floss out and you can sew your tire back together so you can close that. And that does work. There's a lot of things you can do and hopefully it seals. But when it doesn't work or like your tire is too bad. So in order to get a tubeless tire onto a rim, like setup, you have to use an air compressor. It punches the tire on with a lot of pressure all at once. Depending on the tire-rim combo that can be very hard if not impossible to do with a small hand pump. So if you do get a flat and you ride and then that like kind of seal along the edge of the rim where the tire is seated to them breaks, that can be a really hard thing to get back if you're in the middle of nowhere. Co2 cartridges are good for this. They can pump a lot of air in. Sometimes that works. So that can be like a big kneecap of tubeless systems, a big puncture or you lose the seal on the bead. The cool thing about it is--but it's gross--is you can just carry a bike tube and you can then put a bike tube inside. It'll be covered in white goop. But as a failsafe, you can almost always still use tubes. So a lot of people do still carry tubes as an emergency if they have a tubeless system. There's also really cool new.... Oh, what are they made of? God I have one. I just gave one to my friend. They make these new tubes. They're not butyl rubber, there's something...some other kinds of new magical material, but they're like a quarter the size. They're like this big folded up. It's awesome. Sorry you can't see what I'm saying. They're like a third of the size of a regular bike tubes and they supposedly last better. I'm signaling the Inmn over video chat, which none of y'all are gonna see. So there's...that's always your failsafe is a tube, basically, if you have tubeless. Tubless is awesome if you live anywhere sharp and spiky like the desert or you do a lot of commuting with glass and shit like that, tubeless is hands down the way to be if you can. Learn how to use it. learn how to fix it the same way you would learn how to fix a tube if you had it. Just so you know what you need. But 99% of time, it's awesome and that 1% of time it goes terribly awry, but that's pretty good odds.

**Inmn ** 36:37 I see.

**Inmn ** 39:33 That is that is pretty good odds. I feel like I'm really interested in this from the perspective of like convincing myself to go tubeless.

**Spencer ** 39:50 Inmn, I have a whole bike shed. Come over. We'll get we'll get you set up.

**Inmn ** 39:53 Okay, okay. I do hate changing tires.

**Spencer ** 39:56 You live in the desert. You should.... you deserve tubeless. You deserve to never fix a tube again after those 60 on that tour. You just don't need to.

**Inmn ** 40:06 Never. Never again. To kind of switch gears a little bit. A pun, weirdly unintended. I'm, wondering how bikes as opposed to other forms of transportation can fit into different preparedness models for, you know, anything that we might be encountering, either a change in...a drastic change in our world like, thinking about a post-industrial world or a post-car world-and not like post-car in the Green Revolution way. I'm talking about like post-car in that like we live in a furtherly apocalyptic hell world. But also just, you know, in disasters and like needing to disappear for a few days. Like how do/do bikes fit into preparedness models?

**Spencer ** 41:11 I mean, we're looking at a bike and we're seeing the most sustainable, accessible means of transport...like self-propelled transportation that's ever existed as far as I can think of. So it only requires you to be on it and pedaling it. So you need to have like water and food to propel yourself. And it can fit between...like you can ride anything from single-track to a road. So any kind of surface that it needs to be. If there's stairs, put your bike on your shoulder, if there's a steep hill, you can walk up it. If there's a fence or a barricade, pick your bike up, put if on the side and hop over. You're not encumbered by things like traffic, typically. You can get between cars, if there's a big line of cars, if everyone's trying to go the same direction, and there's a traffic jam like or there's an accident or there's a chasm. Like, all of those things, the accessibility and the means, the way you can just get on a bike, or pick it up and move it and carry it entirely under your own power, I think is an incredible tool for preparedness. And if you understand how to then attach things that bike in a way that makes it accessible for you to carry things distances, I think that's an incredibly useful tool to have in your back pocket. If you have some of those bags or you have those kitty litter panniers that you used 10 years ago and you have them in your closet. Like gas.... I mean we saw during COVID like gas, people got scared and they hoarded gasoline. And like all of a sudden, you can't drive your car. But you can ride your bike.

**Inmn ** 42:52 Yeah, I feel like in a post-industrial world gas is gonna like instantly become unavailable.

**Spencer ** 43:03 Yeah, and just you see how quickly like... I mean, if we listened to like It Could Happen Here, the first season, like talking about how quickly supply chains can go awry. And especially in regards like oil and gas and things like that. Like, it doesn't take much to disrupt those kinds of...those systems in place. And all of a sudden, there's an incredible scarcity in just a few days. And then your mobility is pretty limited if you've only relied on cars or something or walking, you know? You could double, triple, quadruple the distance, you could easily walk in a day on a bicycle while expending the same, if not less, energy and moving more things with you at the same time.

**Inmn ** 43:48 Yeah, people have some pretty wild...like I've seen some like pretty wild bike trailer setups for things that people are somehow bringing long distance. And this is, you know, this is on pavement for the most part, but like, I don't know, yeah, I've seen some wacky bike trailers.

**Spencer ** 44:05 Wacky bike trailers, like bakfiets, like front loading cargo bikes are really popular all over the place. You know, we're catching up that here. There's so many ways. Like I have this cool little bike that I ride every day. It's got a tiny front wheel and then the rack is built in. I've got just a milk crate on it. But I can put a whole ass human on there or like 100 pounds of groceries or whatever and then still put two massive panniers in back and put a frame bag on it. I can easily probably move 200 pounds of stuff on that and that's like an old bike I got from a bike co-op with like a $300 fork that my friends company makes and a milk crate. And the ability to move things with cargo bikes, especially designed for those loads, is truly the car replacing in many, if not all, situations.

**Inmn ** 44:57 Yeah, yeah. And it's like, especially those cargo bikes where it's like.... I remember.... golly, this was a long time ago. It's like when I lived in Boston, there was some organization, their whole thing was like bringing...it was called like Bikes to Rwanda or something and it was like raising money to like build and buy cargo bikes for coffee farmers to be able to transport like hundreds of pounds of coffee across like some pretty shitty terrain in a very short time period. And I was like...it was the first time I'd ever heard of or considered that a bike like that existed, and it blew my mind.

**Spencer ** 45:44 Yeah. And there's tons of those. And you could...you could also, we're talking about welding a tall bike, like you could weld a cargo bike, you know, out of old trash and old bikes? I think one thing that's interesting to talk about too, can we go solar punk? Like can we talk about electric bikes?

**Inmn ** 46:01 Yeah, let's do it.

**Spencer ** 46:03 I mean, literally, you could get like a single 100 watt solar panel, controller, and like a battery...if you have any kind of small off the grid solar system with an inverter, you could have an ebike. And that can, in theory, like, you could power that. I'm not good on the math, but this is something I've wanted to do for my own personal things. Like, you can get conversion kits for bikes. You don't have to buy a brand new ebike. You can just get the motor that bolts on your bike, and there's a various amounts of that. But having a small solar generator or a small solar system could easily power or like charge an electric bike, and that changes your range and capacity into the hundreds of pounds or, you know, 60 to 80 miles quickly and efficiently in a way that's renewable and rechargeable without having to be on the grid or even consider having to like....Yeah, I mean, batteries do...lithium-ion batteries do wear out, they don't charge as much. Like, they don't last forever. There are limitations to this. But I think that's a pretty cool thing. We're seeing a huge influx of technology and development in e-bikes, especially the e-cargo bikes. And thinking about like, "Oh, if I had some kind of solar or some kind of battery backup, wind, water, whatever you got, and combine that with an electric bicycle can really extend that range and that capability and speed, you know?

**Inmn ** 47:33 Is that like...is that something.... Like...could you take an ebike.... Like, we'll I've never thought about this, could you take an e-bike or electric bike on a long distance bike tour with a portable solar panel? Depending on where you are?

**Spencer ** 47:55 I don't think it would work that way. I'm talking about in a preparedness situation. I think that would depend on.... I think for the amount of stuff you would have to carry to actually do it, I don't think you could be like riding and have enough solar panels to charge a bike while it's ridng.

**Inmn ** 48:13 Well, not like while it's riding but, you know, ride a day, charge a day. Like, how small is the solar setup that is doing this?

**Spencer ** 48:24 Probably not that small. If you had a trailer, I bet you could do something there. So this is.... So, for e-bikes for touring, this is where it gets hard because a lot of the battery, a lot of the power is going to be moving the battery and the motor, which are quite heavy. The more batteries you need to have a longer range, the more like motor you need to have. And then that kind of snowballs in a way that I don't think is efficient for bicycle travel. I think I'm more thinking of like a preparedness situation where you're settled a little bit. But if you can get between power sources or something like that, you can get 60 miles before you charge your e-bike, you can do that, and carry more weight in a more expeditious time and then charge for a few hours and keep going. We are seeing people doing e-bike touring. It's more popular in Europe because things are a little closer together. I was thinking more of preparedness. But, yeah, touring it's.... There's a lot of concerns. But as far as I know, I haven't seen anyone dragging a solar system with them to recharge their bike in any kind of timely manner. Because we're talking, most of the batteries are pretty huge. Not impossible. But, you know, like, at what point does the solar system outweigh the the range It's limiting you from, you know, bringing your own power factory with you?

**Inmn ** 49:53 Yeah, yeah. No, I was like having this moment where I was like, wait, is the technology like wacky enough that you could just have a portable solar panel that recharges your e-bike? And I'm like, no, no, no. Okay.

**Spencer ** 50:05 Yeah, those things barely charge an iPhone. I think we're far away from that being a reality. But as far as preparedness, like if you were set up on some kind of a compound with at least a little bit of solar, using that as a vehicle to get around or do what you need to do or something like that, I think that's a cool door to open. But for travel, it's much harder.

**Inmn ** 50:31 Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, it's interesting how thinking about collapse then makes you think about systems and technologies that have kind of just always existed. So when I was a train punk, when I was like, you know, early 20s, or something, I had this fantasy of setting up these little way stations across the country, you know, like, essentially little DIY sheds in the woods near the hop out spot, or whatever. And you go there and there's a little place to sleep and there's some food and a bicycle and and just any kind of random things that you wouldn't want to carry with you or that you might need to resupply yourself with. And I got really into the idea of developing these little way station networks, which I never did, which is maybe my biggest regret of my life. That's not true. I wish that I had been cooler or less busy with other things. But it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's like, I think about that stuff with bikes. I think about it with like.... This kind of already exists for like long distance hiking infrastructure. Like there's essentially just way stations that exist. And it's thinking about that stuff in collapse scenarios that relate to bicycle infrastructure, bicycle technology, is really interesting to me because it also like takes it out of the realm of being solo and on your own and like there being entire communities that can kind of spring up from like sustaining different forms of transportation. Sorry, this is a tunnel thought.

**Spencer ** 52:40 No, not at all. It's a sweet idea. And I'm definitely there with you. And I feel they're not solely for that, but bike co-ops exist in a lot of small places. And a lot of times they will have rentals if you can get to there. But I like the idea of like, yeah, you hop into a town and you're stuck 10 miles out of town, you don't want to walk it. But, there's this little shack with some snacks and a bike to get me there, and I leave it when I go back. You have the trail angels in the hiking world, which will help people out when they're far from resupplies or driving them town or they happen to have property next to one of the trails to help people out and stuff like that. So we're seeing the edge of that possibility for sure,

**Inmn ** 53:26 Yeah. Kind of one of the last things that I want to ask you about--I mean, I want to talk about bikes all the time, but we are coming up on time again--is what.... So you know, obviously riding bikes is a very outdoor activity. And I'm wondering if there's any things that you've seen or experienced or like heard people talking about, or just considerations for bike travel in a world with a very rapidly and drastically changing climate? Like, what things should...do people have to consider more of now? Or like what, what changes are people seeing?

**Spencer ** 54:14 Well, in regards to climate change, and we're talking about, I think, a lot of the discourses on like reusing or recycling is kind of a sham, but like, thinking about, I think, especially in the bike world, in the bike marketing world, they will market it to you like, "Hey, get this bike, it's the greenest thing you can do is like riding your bike." And riding a bike is a really sustainable way to transport yourself and to avoid using fossil fuels and, you know, getting down your carbon footprint or wherever the bullshit they're calling it nowadays. Individual responsibility. But in the same way that like not buying a new car, is like not buying a new bicycle. So reusing an old bicycle that already exists and maintaining what you have, I think is a big part of it. And we're seeing a lot of companies...there's a lot of there's a lot of bike companies that making stupidly proprietary things that will not have parts in like four years and there's a lot of companies intentionally using older standards--

**Spencer ** 55:22 Fuck them.

**Spencer ** 55:23 Yeah, they're making performance shit, it's performance. It's meant to last a season. It's fine. But that's not...it's not the part of bikes. Like, I can go to the bike co-op in town, I can get a bike made a 1987, and there's a bucket full of parts that are still rebuildable for that bike, and I can rebuild it and I can ride it today 40 some odd years later. So, sometimes you need to get new bike, sometimes, the bike co-op or the used market is not going to have what you need for your bicycle travel. And that's okay. And you might need to buy a new bike. That's great. Find a cool company you like that's doing cool stuff, and think about all the things we've talked about. But if you have a bike that works, there's so many options for retrofitting them and keeping them running. And if you...once you get a little bit deeper into bike nerd culture, you're gonna see there's a lot of standards that have been around for 30 plus years and various aspects of frame building and bicycle componentry. And being able to like be like, "Oh, I want a bike that has that because I already have the parts here. Or I know I get these parts really easily and cheaply to maintain the bike. So I don't have to buy a new bike every five years when the newest, coolest thing comes out." You know. I think that's a such an important and accessible part of bicycles. And if we're talking about supply chains failing, like, if there's a bunch of parts that are a similar standard, like every Walmart bike you ever had has what's called an American bottom bracket. And man, does it suck for performance riding, but you can adjust that fucker with a crescent wrench and some ball bearings you can probably pull out of most anything that has ball bearings. And that's super repairable and fixable without any specialized tools. Does that answer your question? Or have I gone too off the rails.

**Inmn ** 57:20 That's like a totally different track of the question than I was asking. But I'm glad that that's what you talked about.

**Spencer ** 57:27 Will you rephrase it because I want to...I want to make sure...I think I went off tangent. Rephrase it, if you would.

**Inmn ** 57:33 Yeah. No, I'm glad that you answered that question because I would have wanted to ask that anyways. I'm thinking more of as we see a drastically changing climate, which is like some places being just harder to be outside, how.... Like, I don't know, I'm wondering.... It's like, I always like to ask people in their weird little niche thing the ways that they experience climate change on a personal level or like a niche level. And like, I was talking to someone about paddling places where it's really cold, like ice and stuff. And they were like, "Yeah, we're seeing these changes in ice and freeze patterns." And I'm just wondering the small ways the stuff can like crop up in like places people might not expect it to.

**Spencer ** 58:30 Interesting. Okay. So I mean, obviously, a lot of places are getting hotter. And that makes it difficult to ride a bike if the sun's more UV intense and it's hotter for longer stretches of time or larger portions of the year. Like, if you ride your bike where it's over 100 degrees or it's incredibly humid. So we're talking about wet bulb effect and those things that are concerns for more humid parts of--a large chunk of the Earth. That makes a lot of physical activity without air conditioning or something like that, can be can kind of like totally kneecap everything we've talked about because if your body can't cool down while it's exercising then that's kind of game over, you know? You just overheat. I hadn't considered that for humidity. I mean, in the desert it's great. If you have access to some kind of water, like we are pretty dope swamp coolers in and of our own right. Like evaporative cooling works really well. If you're moving and there's any kind of breeze and you can sweat, our bodies are really efficient evaporative coolers. But as we're looking at climate change, a lot of places are going to be hitting 100 degrees and 100% humidity with a lot of regularity, which is going to mean if you don't have some means of cooling--not by evaporative because evaporation just stops working then--then that's when that breaks down, and your body temperature kind of runs away and you can't cool off. So those are definitely things to consider if you're living in a more humid place and possibly bike travel or self-mobility, in that regard, could be hampered.

**Inmn ** 1:00:12 Yeah, yeah, it's like we just did almost two hour long serious thing about why bikes are really cool. I'm sorry to sorry to ask at the end like, "And why we might not be able to do it?"

**Spencer ** 1:00:25 Why we might not actually be able to ride bikes? Because I hadn't considered the wet bulb thing till now. That's a really good question. I think it's a good thing to finish on because that's a limitation I hadn't considered till literally right now. And that's...that could be a huge limitation for hampering that.

**Inmn ** 1:00:49 But, you know, I don't like ending on totally sour notes. So yeah, do you do you have any kind of like last advice for people who like want to get into long distance bike travel? Long distance we're defining as anywhere....more than a place you could ride in a day. And, just any fun reflections or memories of like just really freakin cool things you can do on a bike? I don' t know.

**Spencer ** 1:01:27 everything in my life that I hold dear, and a lot of the people I hold the most dear in my life, I can always trace back to some aspect of cycling. Like riding bikes to go meet them for the first hangout or I was at this bike shop or I went on this event ride or whatever. The bike world is big and diverse as far as like what you can hope to find in it. There's an incredible community all over the world doing really rad stuff with bikes, whether that's going to be organizing, whether you're going to be doing mutual aid via bike, whether you're going to be racing, or just going for like a weekend ride. It's all there. And it's all propelled by you. And there's an incredible community. I can't say enough about how much bikes and cycling has totally taken my bike in a different direction than I ever expected it would go and it's the main fuel behind like everything that I do and a lot of the best things that have happened to me in my life. Bike travel has become that focus. The people I've met, the people that have taken care of me along the way, the lifelong friends I will have that I've met on bike tour or gone on bike tours with. It's a vulnerable way to travel. And that vulnerability leads you to leaning on strangers and leaning on new people that you've met. And those things lead to unexpected places and unexpected people and connections that you wouldn't have in any other way or any other situation. So take the bike you have, strap some shit to it. Go fucking ride somewhere that you're excited about like a cool dot on the map. I don't know. I can't recommend it enough. Learn how to fix your bike. Learn how to use tools. Go to your local bike co-op. Volunteer. Meet the folks there. They're probably doing really cool shit to in your same community. There's so there's so much good out there if you get past a lot of them marketing bullshit of going fast and racing and competing. There's so many cool things to be experienced and to do with bikes. And you'll just go outside every day and ride your bike and be like "Wow, this is awesome riding my bike." It feels really good. It's like when you were a kid and you like ride your bike to your friend's house in the summertime and go swimming and then.... Don't give up on that childhood joy of just riding your bike and doing cool shit while you ride your bike and just get there and, I don't know, fall in love with it in your own way. I hope.

**Inmn ** 1:04:04 Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah, I had something to say and now I can't remember it. If you had to recommend just a really great place to go ride, like a really good route that you've done, do you have any? dDes not have to be beginner. Could be utterly harrowing.

**Spencer ** 1:04:32 Oh, man, it's a big question. I want to just tell people to just go ride like 30 miles from your house and find a cool spot and sleep on the ground. Don't put a tent up. It's not gonna rain.

**Inmn ** 1:04:48 I mean, that's an answer.

**Spencer ** 1:04:50 That's an answer, but I feel like...I feel like you're asking for a place. Gosh, give me a sec here.

**Inmn ** 1:04:59 Um, I've always heard--while Spencer is thinking about this I'm just going to say what I've heard. I haven't done this, but I've heard that the the Lost Coast in Oregon, Washington, or Northern California... I don't really actually know where this is, because it's lost. And it's also somewhere that you could probably Google. But it's a really incredibly, beautiful bike tour spot. It's like short, like a few days or something. You can kind of like meter it yourself. And it's a nice introduction to kind of like being in the woods and less on pavement because there's no cars. It's completely inaccessible by cars. The only way to get there is on a bike.

**Spencer ** 1:05:02 I've biked a portion of the Lost Cost that is paved. I've hiked the unpaved sections. Unfortunately, you can't take bikes there because it's wilderness. And we've run into this a few times now. The Redwoods in Northern California on that first bike tour when I rode through the Avenue of the Giants just stopped me in my tracks on that trip. At that point, I've been doing like 60 something miles a day up to 100. And I was really going for it. And I rode into the redwoods and I rode 30 miles. And I said this is the most beautiful place I've ever fucking seen in my entire life. Like this is where they filmed Endor and like the Ewoks , and just sat and read my book for a whole day. And I was like, I'm not going anywhere. This is the most beautiful place I've ever been. And I got to ride my bike there. And I didn't really realize where I was going. I was just following some book and some route that someone had laid out forever ago and it would up being one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. I wound up going back there to lead tours and work later in my life and every time I ride through the redwoods it's absolutely magical.

**Spencer ** 1:05:46 Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Well, that seems like a great place to leave it. Do you have any things that you want to shout out, projects, could be totally unrelated to bikes, or places on the internet where you can be found where you would like to be found?

**Spencer ** 1:06:31 I'm really stoked working as a communitiy steward with Bikepacking Routes. So you can find them at bikepackingroutes.com. They're doing a lot of sweet advocacy. They're developing a lot of routes within the community. Like routes for bikepacking. They're doing a of cool workshops. I got to hang out with Noel recently at an event down in Mexico. She's awesome. Kurt Refsnyder, who started that with Kate Boyle are incredible athletes and humans. They're doing a lot of cool stuff. Tons of great resources on that website. I personally write and review for theradavist.com Type my name in there. There's a bunch of stuff. We have an incredible crew. We talk all about bike touring, and a lot of facets of cycling if you're looking for some resources. Super great. If you want to look me up on Instagram, it's just Spencer J Harding. Same from my website, SpencerJharding.com. It's a bunch of bike stuff all over that. If you have any questions about bike stuff or anything with this, I love when random people ask me questions on the internet. So this is your open invitation. Just send me a random message or email or whatever. If you have questions or you want recommendations. I have all this dumb knowledge in my head about bike shit and I love to share it with people. So if you are curious, please, please, please reach out. I won't ghost you and I won't be weird.

**Inmn ** 1:08:33 Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. And we'll we'll see you another time.

**Spencer ** 1:08:40 Thanks for having me.

**Inmn ** 1:08:46 If you enjoyed this podcast then pretend like it's 2006 and you're listening to Defiance Ohio with your friends and riding your bikes all over all over the planet. And yeah, just get out get out and ride or don't. But also, if you enjoyed the show, then you can help support it. And one of the best ways that you can support it is to tell people about it. So, you know, plan a bike trip with your friend. Listen to this episode. Get them stoked on bikes, probably listening to Defiance, Ohio. I don't know why I'm on this Defiance Ohio kick, but it's just they're synonymous with bikes to me. And, yeah, just go have a blast and see what adventures you end up on. Also, if you want to support the show, you can support our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness who puts out this podcast as well as a bunch of other podcasts and cool books and stuff. You can you can go and buy stuff from us at tangledwilderness.org There's also some cool free stuff on there. Like, we just released a second edition of Life Without Law, which is a really great just like primer, intro to anarchy zine. And it's been updated to be a little bit more relevant and referential for stuff that's happened in the past 10 years. Wow, did that zine come out 10 years ago? That's fucking wild. And yeah, you can also find us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And for varying levels of donations a month, you can get some cool stuff like discounts on physical stuff we put out as well as just free digital versions of stuff we put out. You can get a cool zine mailed to you every month. And you can also get us to thank or acknowledge or shout out just rad things in the world, whether that rad thing is you or whether that rad thing is someone that you care about or whether that rad thing is a cool organization that you want to hear acknowledged on all of our podcasts. And as part of that, we would like to thank alium, Amber, Ephemoral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patoli, Eri,c Buck Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, Anonymous, Janice & O'dell, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, and the eternal Hoss the Dog. Oh, this.... Actually, we didn't talk about this in the podcast, but I want to say it. If you have a dog and you're like, "I don't know if I can go on bike tour." I've seen so many people put their dogs in a bike trailer. You can take--I don't know if you can take your dog--but you can take dogs bike packing.

**Spencer ** 1:11:59 100%. Put your dog in a trailer. Take them on the adventure with you. Do it.

**Inmn ** 1:12:10 We hope that you're doing as well as you can with everything that's going on in the world. And we'll see you next time.

Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co