Scott Burwell, PhD, is the founder and CEO of Neurotype Inc. Scott shares his journey from a background in experimental psychology to establishing Neurotype, a company developing brain therapeutics to address cravings in substance use disorders. He discusses the innovative use of EEG technology to measure brain responses to stimuli, providing an objective biological assessment and treatment of cravings. Scott emphasizes the importance of integrating science-led approaches in creating medical devices and...
Scott Burwell, PhD, is the founder and CEO of Neurotype Inc. Scott shares his journey from a background in experimental psychology to establishing Neurotype, a company developing brain therapeutics to address cravings in substance use disorders. He discusses the innovative use of EEG technology to measure brain responses to stimuli, providing an objective biological assessment and treatment of cravings. Scott emphasizes the importance of integrating science-led approaches in creating medical devices and reflects on the challenges and rewards of leading a MedTech startup.
Guest links: https://www.neurotype.io | https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottjburwell/ | https://www.linkedin.com/company/neurotype
Charity supported: Equal Justice Initiative
Interested in being a guest on the show or have feedback to share? Email us at theleadingdifference@velentium.com.
PRODUCTION CREDITS
Host: Lindsey Dinneen
Editing: Marketing Wise
Producer: Velentium
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Episode 049 - Scott Burwell, PhD
[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, I'm Lindsey and I'm talking with MedTech industry leaders on how they change lives for a better world.
[00:00:09] Diane Bouis: The inventions and technologies are fascinating and so are the people who work with them.
[00:00:15] Frank Jaskulke: There was a period of time where I realized, fundamentally, my job was to go hang out with really smart people that are saving lives and then do work that would help them save more lives.
[00:00:28] Diane Bouis: I got into the business to save lives and it is incredibly motivating to work with people who are in that same business, saving or improving lives.
[00:00:38] Duane Mancini: What better industry than where I get to wake up every day and just save people's lives.
[00:00:42] Lindsey Dinneen: These are extraordinary people doing extraordinary work, and this is The Leading Difference.
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Leading Difference podcast. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I'm so excited to introduce you to my guest today, Scott Burwell. Scott is the founder and CEO of Neurotype Inc, developer of new brain therapeutics to make environmental triggers less problematic for people in recovery for substance use disorders and other addictions.
Well, hello, Scott. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited to speak with you.
[00:01:17] Scott Burwell: Great. Thanks so much for having me, Lindsey. Thanks.
[00:01:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, would you mind by starting off and tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and maybe what led you to MedTech?
[00:01:28] Scott Burwell: Sure. Yeah. So, I have a background in experimental psychology, a PhD in psychology from the University of Minnesota. And kind of what led me to that was experience: my family had a liquor store growing up and I worked there for many years. And so I saw firsthand from behind the counter people with substance use disorders occasionally, and just knowing from extended family, substance use disorders, and it was an interesting observation to me to see different people, how they get to a substance use disorder. Some through genetic propensity and some through experiences in their life. And that led me to get a PhD in psychology where I really focused on the genetics and physiology underlying substance use disorders.
And during this time of getting my PhD, I was always trying to think of, where does my skill set and my interest align in the future? What kind of job am I going to have after this? So I looked around. I had some experience, thought, "Could I go the academic route? Could I apply for grants, be a professor at a university?" That approach, which is a very good approach for some people, where your main outcome are publications and grants and dissemination of science.
And then I also looked at industry, but a lot of the companies in industry weren't doing exactly what I wanted to do, which was take these biomarkers that we were studying in psychology and transforming that into medical device or medical innovations. And then the third path that I didn't quite see at the time was this sort of like rabbit hole, this unknown path of medical device innovations or startup innovations.
And it was an eye-opener to me through some programs at the National Institute of Health, National Institute on Drug Abuse, that led us to this opportunity that actually, I could start my own startup in this space. And and I'm happy to talk a little bit more about that, that later. But really, this opportunity to make something new, based on the science that we know today, and based on the opportunity and the gap in terms of what people are being treated for with these substance use disorders. So that's kind of what led me down the path, and happy to talk about it today.
[00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, excellent. Well, thank you for that. And yeah, I'm so excited to delve into so many aspects of your story. So going back just a little bit, you had this childhood where you were observing and you were seeing what was happening to some folks and you thought, "Okay, maybe there's a better way, or at least I'd like to understand more about this." But now, were you always sort of science minded and kind of interested in going into psychology, or did that come about as a result? How did that interest develop?
[00:04:10] Scott Burwell: Yeah, really, I never saw myself getting a PhD, never saw myself going to an academia setting. People with graduate degrees, people with doctoral degrees-- all those people seem to be other people and not something that what we did. But my parents really instilled an appreciation of higher education in myself and my two older sisters. But again, it was never this plan for me to go out and get an higher education, PhD degree.
I think that what really led me to the path was just try to understand myself. I think that's what led me to psychology. It was a psychology class in behavior genetics that I took in undergraduate that, you know, behavior genetics is the field of understanding how your genes and your rearing environment lead to who you are and influence who you are. And it was one of these, this realization that actually it's not just your experiences, it's not all just the soft, mental processing and soft psychological experience. There's really a physical, biophysical basis, to a lot of who you are and who you turn out to be.
And I think that was really eye-opening to me and helpful for me understanding who I was and how I am in the world. And I think, you know, just that little bit of information of understanding, there's this objective information that is programmed in your genes or programmed in your physiology that influences who you are in everyday life, that I found super interesting and eventually led me to work at the Twin Study at the University of Minnesota. And then and then while I was there, I realized there's a lot of people getting PhDs that I'm not that much different from and we're all just curious people. And it's an opportunity for me to, you know, if I apply myself, it was an opportunity for me to pursue a field.
[00:06:06] Lindsey Dinneen: That's very cool. Yeah. Okay. So, so you're pursuing this field and you've already had this background and interest in helping folks who have these substance abuse disorders, and I'm wondering, what were you observing as you have now developed this company? And I'm so excited to dive into that as well, but a little bit before that, what were your observations when you started realizing, "Okay there's a gap in the way that we're treating this or handling this or responding to this." And then what was the outcome for you that you thought, "Okay, let's try something different."
[00:06:42] Scott Burwell: Yeah. So a couple of things. I think the first thing is that, the treatment of substance use disorders and all behavioral addictions and to some degree mental health is been sort of a parallel development. It's been a, it's been a parallel field that's been outside of the rest of the way that medicine is traditionally done. And so, even though we have for some substance use disorders medications for management of the substance use disorder. Or there are social support groups, AA, Narcotics Anonymous also, that help provide social support to people with substance use disorders. These are sort of groups and services that have been built outside of traditional medicine.
And with the exception of these services, there haven't been too many medical innovations, FDA regulated innovations that doctors can prescribe for people with substance use disorders. And this is despite decades of research that are showing there are biological underpinnings of substance use disorders. There are biological interventions that, that can potentially help people with these afflictions.
And so, that was one of the pieces that during my training, I was just constantly looking for companies that were doing this kind of work to treat disorders from a biological or psychobiological perspective. And I just wasn't finding anyone. And also at that same time, the DSM Five, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for substance use disorders, the criteria that sort of outline what it takes to get a diagnosis had just included the symptom of craving. It might be surprising to people, but it's only been since about 2013 or so, that craving has been an official symptom of a substance use disorder. And I mean, that's despite again, decades, many years of people reporting cravings being an issue that they deal with day in and day out.
And so I was aware of this addition of a new symptom, but also I'm aware of the fact that the way that substance use disorders are diagnosed, they're assessed, they're monitored, is entirely subjective, meaning that people are reporting these symptoms in an interview in a one on one kind of subjective interview that people can report what they believe, report what they experience, which is valid information. But sometimes what you're aware of, what the clinician is aware of, might not be what's going on an objective biophysical level.
And so I was aware of a certain biomarker that you can measure with brain waves using electroencephalogram or EEG and this biomarker is what leading science says is the biomarker underpinning of craving. And so I felt, well, you know, if there was a way that clinicians had this in their hands as either a diagnostic assistant or as a way to treat people with craving, this could be a valuable medical device that people can use. And so, I can talk more about the specific biomarker, but these were two realizations that I saw that there's a lacking and a need for innovation in this field.
[00:10:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Great. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, could you share a little bit more about the biomarker and then how you have found, how you have discovered to affect this and what this device is and how it works?
[00:10:14] Scott Burwell: Yeah, so Neurotype Inc., we were founded in 2019. We were founded after we were participating in this workshop at Yale University called Innovation to Impact. It's funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse. And we really pitched this idea to them as kind of a off the cuff, last day of the workshop pitch event and won first prize in that thing. And that's really what gave us the steam to go ahead and apply for these federal grants to support further development of this biomarker.
What the biomarker is, basically we put a headset on you and that headset is kind of like a fitness tracker except other than being like a fitness tracker that's tracking your steps from, you know, a watch or, you know, being a glucose monitor that's on your arm, that senses how much blood sugar you have, this fitness tracker is on your head. It measures the electro physiology that's generated by your brain. And it's entirely passive in that regard. We're not putting any like, you know, electrical stimulations in, but it's just measuring how your brain is acting at all moments.
And what we do is that's different from other companies is we're actually recording how your brain responds on a millisecond scale in response to pictures. So we hand somebody an iPad while they're wearing one of these headsets, and we show them a flip book of pictures. Some of those pictures are like chocolate cake, puppy dogs, you know, cute, emotional pictures. Some of those things are boring things like kitchen supplies, office supplies, whatever they might be. And then some of those things are like opioid pill bottle, right?
And so, for opioid use disorder, if you are liable for craving, and if you're likely to start reusing after being discharged from treatment, your response to that opioid pill bottle, the brain response, the objective brain response, is going to be very similar to how it responds to, for instance, chocolate cake, than a person that's not at risk for returning to opioid use or other kinds of craving. And so this biomarker is really a biomarker of what's called 'motivated attention.'
How interesting you find that stimulus on the screen and how much it grabs your attention. And what we know from psychology is that if something grabs your attention, you're likely to behave in a way that is going to correspond with that. So if it grabs your attention, you're going to act a certain way around that stimulus. And so for people with opioid use disorder, it might be that it stimulates some thought process or some behavioral process in your body that leads you to seek that substance, affiliate yourself with people that have that substance, you know, all sorts of indirect ways that eventually lead you to start using that substance again.
And so, we have done a few different research projects funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse, and these are different projects over time that have really established the core assessment capabilities of the device. And now we're working towards clinical trial validation through a small business innovation research project from National Institute on Drug Abuse that will be a pivotal clinical trial for us.
[00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: That's really exciting. When does that happen?
[00:13:32] Scott Burwell: So, that is part of what's called a fast track project, and we are finishing up our phase one portion of that. And the phase two portion will probably start sometime this coming summer. Yeah.
[00:13:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Great. Okay. That's great. And so what is your dream or ultimate ideal goal for the company and for this device? What are you hoping to affect or where are you hoping this device will be used?
[00:13:58] Scott Burwell: Yeah. So, our main goal or our first sort of beachhead market, if you will, is the intensive outpatient treatment clinics for substance use disorders or other mental health. It's a certain kind of clinic where people are seen on a pretty regular basis during early recovery when they're still in a kind of high risk period. And in this group of patients, they tend to be in a scenario where they are living at home or living in the wild, so to speak, it's no longer a residential treatment setting. But they are living and being challenged day to day with the triggers in their environment that, that can lead to risk for problems.
And the interesting thing about this space though, and this market is that in that space, there really are not many regulated, or any regulated devices, that are being used to manage specifically certain symptoms. And especially none that are applying to brain physiology like ours. And so, it's a pretty big step to bring our device to these spaces because they might be familiar with a blood pressure cuff or people might get blood work done from time to measure other health related risks. But for us, we are bringing an EEG system, and it's a portable EEG with a software device, into a clinic where they've never been before.
And so my grand vision for this is really to be, you know, we're not a fix all. We're not a cure-all solution, but we are solution to help one specific slice of somebody's condition, and be a fix for craving in these settings. But if we can get the device in these clinics settings, it opens the door for a whole lot of other biomarker solutions to take place. And so right now, we're just focused on craving, monitoring the craving, but also treating the craving through what's called closed loop biofeedback.
But the but the long term vision for this is to do-- we can additionally build out with the same brain kind of assessment, we can build out other kinds of biomarkers. So, those that are related to genetic risk. So we don't have to do like a full genetic test, but we could use that same brain data to to study what are called endo phenotypes, but basically a genetic marker of risk for a certain disease type or a certain disease progression.
We could also measure other aspects of distress or you know, other depressive symptomatology or things like this with our measures. So, I think if I were to, at minimum, if we were to be able to make a dent or just get our device into these intensive outpatient clinics, that would be a huge success for me and the company. But, I think much grander speaking, it would open the doors for a lot of more transformative addiction treatment care.
[00:16:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes. Okay. Well, that's incredible and thank you for sharing your vision, 'cause I always love hearing, all right, what's the longterm heart for this company in this project. So that's great. Yeah. Are there any moments that stand out to you, maybe as you're developing this device or maybe even before as you're studying the biomarker and you're thinking through, you know, how can I make a difference in this particular indication? So are there any moments that stand out to you as really affirming to you, "Yes, I am in the right place at the right time. Doing what I'm supposed to be doing."
[00:17:32] Scott Burwell: Yeah, I think one piece was when we won first place at that at the Yale workshop that we did. I would say another was just getting each of these grants. We've applied for grants over and over again. And you don't get every one of those grants. But when you get certain projects, and when you're awarded these monies, it is incredibly validating because, you know it's gone through scientific review at the NIH. You know that also at the specific institute, so National Institute on Drug Abuse or Alcoholism or Mental Health-- they're different -- that this is an intense area that they see value. And so when you get these projects, and we've gotten over a million dollars now in these projects, that there's some validation behind it from federal and also a scientific level.
So that's one area, but then I would also say that, when talking to clinicians, we talked to clinicians and we talked to some patients about the device, and we demo the device and demo the technology with some clinicians and patients. And, people will come back and be like, "Wow, why is this not out there already? Why don't we have this kind of data?"
And to me that is incredibly rewarding to just see people and their immediate responses to the technology, because I don't think anyone really knows that this science or this technology is readily available. It just needs to be packaged in the correct way. And it also has to go through the correct regulatory and reimbursement pass. I mean, to just say "just," I think that's probably an understatement for sure. But, the science has decades of work behind it. And really it's up to us now to move that, to make it to that next milestone, that next goalpost. And that work isn't really science. It's just hard work.
[00:19:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Well, speaking of hard work, you know, forming a company on its own, working in the medtech field on its own, all of those things are difficult challenges to choose. And I'm curious, how has your personal path been in terms of growing into this leadership role where you are directing this company and directing people. How's that journey been for you too?
[00:19:43] Scott Burwell: You know, I think it's been a journey. And when people say that you can't do it on your own, that is 100 percent true. And even if you hear it and you believe it, sometimes I think it takes a lot for me to come to the realization to put that into practice. I tried to do a lot on my own. In the team, I am the CTO, the CEO, the COO, all these different roles that I've assigned myself. We participated and were awarded into the-- NIH has this program called Innovation Core, iCore. And we did this program and one of our mentors there was really harping on the idea of leaning into your what are called core competencies. So what are you actually really good at as a team and as a company? And what are you less good at?
And and I think that the more that I've learned to lean into my core competencies, which are really around the science, the translation of the neuroscience, the translation into a clinical tool that can be used, thinking about the vision of our technology. And tried to offload some of the other things, whether it be regulatory or whether it be some aspects of business strategy or other otherwise to, to other people that can help in a fractional sense or whatever to help us out. That's helped me both maintain my role as a leader and keep on doing the work that I think that I can actually contribute to and be useful contributing to, as well as keeping the company afloat in terms of funding and just hitting our milestones on all the different projects that we've been awarded and need to produce for.
So, so I would say that, you know, I'm no, I'm not a perfect leader. I'm not a perfect CEO by any means. But I, but as I go on, I kind of learned that you can't do it all yourself, and you can't accomplish everything to the same degree as another person possibly could. And so trying to build good teams, trying to lean on team members that can do certain things, finding the strengths in certain team members and asking them to do the right kind of work given their skill set. But I think that's been a crash course for me.
[00:22:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, indeed. Well, that makes complete sense because, you know, like you said at the very beginning, it is a journey, and it is a constant learning and growing process. So yeah, that's, that's fantastic. Well, pivoting the conversation just for fun, imagine that you were to be offered a million dollars to teach a masterclass on anything you want. It can be within your field. It doesn't have to be. What would you choose to teach and why?
[00:22:29] Scott Burwell: Oh my gosh. Well, You know, I think that-- I'm not sure anyone would offer me a million dollars for this. But if I had the time, I think If I had the time, I would actually really love to teach a masterclass on how to do this sort of neuroscience innovations. There's a lot. This is a really hot area for startups and innovations, the idea of using neuroscience tools as products. There are companies out there like the Muse headband or there's Nurable, which makes these smart sort of headphones that also measure brainwaves. Neurocity is another company that's doing things for productivity. And I know people at these companies. They're all great companies. And these are some very successful examples.
But there's other companies out there too that, that are doing things that I feel are led by engineering first. So, just because you can do something, it doesn't mean that you should do something. And it doesn't mean that there's any validity to what it is that you're doing. So, you know, there's a lot of interest in that. Around developing brain computer interfaces or other kinds of neurological or brain diagnostic or treatment devices. They're doing brain stimulation or brain sensing or biofeedback or all these sorts of buzzwords.
I think we're kind of part of that group, honestly, but the difference between us and the others is that we are science led and a lot of these other companies are engineering or technology led. And when you lead through something, when you start by innovating by technology and innovating by engineering, that's great from a perspective of showing others that you have a tool. But without a use for that tool, and without evidence from science that tool actually does something useful, then it's kind of useless. And so a lot of those companies go broke because they don't have a user for that tool or the tool that they built doesn't actually do what they intended it to do.
So one thing that I think I would do in this course, if I were to do this course, is to really emphasize like, here's how you can approach certain kinds of biomarkers. Here's the types of biomarkers that people actually think is correlate with a disease, major depression, ADHD, substance use disorders, whatever it is, and actually have a scientific grounding versus building a headset that does XYZ first and not really having a scientific basis.
One, one tip I would just offer people is just get a PhD that has the background in that content space first on your team, because they will tell you what the field thinks of it. And a lot of times, the field thinks that a lot of the products that are being developed out there are just snake oil. And so, so really, you know, do your diligence on the science before diving into something.
[00:25:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. Yes. I'm sure that would be a fantastic masterclass and very needed. So, all right. Sounds good. All right. And how do you wish to be remembered after you leave this world?
[00:25:40] Scott Burwell: Great question. You know, I would love, like I mentioned earlier, for Neurotype to play its part in establishing these kinds of brain biomarkers in the treatment for behavioral and mental health disorders. I would love for us to be a building block for what the future looks like. I think we're using the most current science available to build our innovation. And if we can be sort of that first step into the future, I think that would be so great. And the science will change in the future, but I think that if we can be that stepping stone, that would be ideal.
I think on a more personal level, I think I would love for anyone I know, anyone that I come into contact though with, I really want to be remembered as a person that's just been kind to you. If you can remember one moment that that you felt like, "Oh, Scott made me feel good in that scenario" or "Scott was helpful in that scenario." I think that would be a more realistic grab or a closer term grab. So, so, you know, both those things I think would be great. But in the day to day, I really work to at least hope that people remember me and felt that I was kind to them.
[00:26:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Kindness makes all the difference. Yeah! Okay, and then, final question. What is one thing that makes you smile every time you see or think about it?
[00:27:00] Scott Burwell: Oh, geez. I think, you know, Is it is it okay to say cute animal memes from Twitter or something? But so...
[00:27:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure!
[00:27:09] Scott Burwell: I love cute animals. I love any cute animal or cute baby thing on Instagram or wherever. But I will also just say, back to the impact aspect of our company, we do research with people. We do early demo testing with people with substance use disorders. And some people struggle, they're in and out of treatment programs five, six times before something really starts to click. And they put in so much hard work and so much effort to keep on their pathway, unique pathway to recovery.
And so, you know, I think that I'm really encouraged and really puts gas in my tank when I see people that are doing well and that they're happy. And because there's some degree of pride that person carries around and some, and and maybe that pride was not necessarily there beforehand. And so, you know, I think that I will, regardless if they are achieving their goals and living a happier life because of what Neurotype is doing, or something else, really doesn't matter to me.
When I see people that are doing better, it is warming to my heart to see somebody that has made some sort of sustained change in their life that is impacting them in a positive way, because it really does show that people can change. People can do what they want to do and live the life that they want to live in many cases when they. are given the opportunity. And so that's heartwarming to me.
[00:28:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Ah, that's wonderful. Well, yes, and also, awesome little cute memes are the best, especially with animals, oh my gosh.
[00:28:48] Scott Burwell: I know. Yeah.
[00:28:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I spend way too much time looking at baby animals, but I always smile, so, you know, win.
[00:28:54] Scott Burwell: Yes, it is. It's the main, it's the main way I get my little like boosts of dopamine throughout the day for sure.
[00:29:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. Well, Scott, this has been a fantastic conversation. I so appreciate you joining me and sharing more about the work that your company is doing and all the innovation. I'm so excited to watch it continue to succeed. So thank you for spending some time with me today. I appreciate it.
[00:29:18] Scott Burwell: Absolutely. Thank you, Lindsey. Thank you.
[00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, and we're so honored to be making a donation on your behalf as a thank you for your time today to the Equal Justice Initiative, which provides legal representation to prisoners who may have been wrongfully convicted of crimes, poor prisoners without effective representation, and others who may have been denied a fair trial. So thank you so much for choosing that charity to support. We just wish you continued success as you work to change lives for a better world. And thank you also to our listeners for tuning in. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am at the moment, I would love if you would share this episode with a colleague or two, and we will catch you next time.
[00:30:02] Ben Trombold: The Leading Difference is brought to you by Velentium. Velentium is a full-service CDMO with 100% in-house capability to design, develop, and manufacture medical devices from class two wearables to class three active implantable medical devices. Velentium specializes in active implantables, leads, programmers, and accessories across a wide range of indications, such as neuromodulation, deep brain stimulation, cardiac management, and diabetes management. Velentium's core competencies include electrical, firmware, and mechanical design, mobile apps, embedded cybersecurity, human factors and usability, automated test systems, systems engineering, and contract manufacturing. Velentium works with clients worldwide, from startups seeking funding to established Fortune 100 companies. Visit velentium.com to explore your next step in medical device development.
