Interview with Julie Collens, Founder & CEO of Vivid Genomics. Vivid Genomics is a life science company that develops tools to identify patient variations that affect clinical trials in dementia.This podcast series is hosted by Patricia Kathleen and Wilde Agency Media. The series interviews female and female-identified entrepreneurs, founders, business owners, and gurus across all industries to investigate women (and female-identified individuals) in business today. Both the platform and discussion are designed to further the global conversation in regards to the changing climate of female (and female-identified individuals) in entrepreneurial and founding roles.
TRANSCRIPTION
*Please note, this is an automated transcription please excuse any typos or errors
[00:00:07] Hi, my name is Patricia Kathleen, and this podcast series will contain interviews I conduct with female and female-identified entrepreneurs, founders, co-founders, business owners and industry gurus. These podcasts speak with women and women, identified individuals across all industries in order to shed light for those just getting into the entrepreneurial game, as well as those deeply embedded within it histories, current companies and lessons learned are explored in the conversations I have with these insightful and talented powerhouses. The series is designed to investigate a female and female identified perspective in what has largely been a male dominated industry in the USA to date. I look forward to contributing to the national dialog about the long overdue change of women in American business arenas and in particular, entrepreneurial roles. You can contact me via my media company website Wild Dot Agency. That's why Elle DEA agents see or my personal website. Patricia, Kathleen, dot com. Thanks for listening. Now let's start the conversation.
[00:01:30] Hi, everyone, and welcome back, this is your host, Patricia, and I am so elated today to be sitting down with Julie Collens. She's the founder and CEO of Vivid Genomics. Welcome, Julie. Thank you. Yes. So a really quick bio on Vivid Genomics and Julie as well. Vivid Genomics is a life science company that develops tools to identify patient variation that affects clinical trials in dementia. By applying machine learning to biology and genomics. Vivid Genomics is developing tests to help Alzheimer's drugs develop to identify patient variation that affects clinical trials and to design and analyze more informed trials to increase the probability of identifying a drug response and getting a drug approved. Julie holds a B.S. from the University of Calgary and a Ph.D. in Evolutionary Population Genetics from the University of Chicago. Her career has been motivated by the real world application of genomics as a cell side equity analyst covering life science tools and molecular diagnostics company at Robert W. Baird and in senior marketing strategy roles at Illumina to accelerate the clinical application of genomics in complex diseases and the genomics. She is leveraging a combined experience in genomics, finance, business development strategy and commercialization to identify efficient approaches to implementing precision medicine and improving neurodegenerative disease drug development.
[00:02:56] So that is an awesome history and background that I can't wait to crawl through with you. Julie, a quick roadmap today for everyone listening of the podcast.
[00:03:07] We're going to cover Julie's academic background. Then we'll go straight to the backbone of genomics, namely the what, when, who, where and funding. Then we will drop straight into the goals that Julie has for Vivid Genomics for the next three years. And we'll wrap everything up with advice that Julie may have for those listening regarding how to get involved in what she does or just be a little bit more like her. So, Julie, let's jump right into it. Will you take us straight to your academic background and professional life thereafter? Sure.
[00:03:36] So I did my undergrad actually in plant sciences, and I have a pretty twisty career from that point until now, starting with the genomics. So I've always really, really been interested in genetic information and genomics. And so as an undergrad, I was looking at the developmental genetics of plants and plants to all sorts of wacky, interesting things. And then I went on to do my PhD, the University of Chicago in population genetics and evolutionary biology. And so I was really interested in was the effects of dispersal. So individuals moving into and out of a population and how that changes the structure of populations. And I was actually working on kelp for my PhD and it was a very clearly basic research kind of project and approach. And it became clear to me through my PhD that academic science was probably not for me. And I was far more interested in actually applying genetics to answer big questions in health care. And so shortly after I finished my PhD, I did an internship at an investment bank that was focused on life, science and health care investment. So it was basically a walk from academic research into the dark side of Wall Street. And from there I did a I took a full time position as a stock analyst, and we were covering companies that were either developing tools to read genetic information or that we're using genetic information to make predictions in as diagnostics. And that was primarily in the area of infectious disease and oncology.
[00:05:13] And that was a really, really fantastic experience for getting exposure to the corporate world and publicly traded companies and finance, certainly. But I really missed the like digging in more into the science and interacting with scientists. And also, rather than just witnessing companies from the outside, I wanted to be involved in devising the strategy and executing the strategy. Right. So I had an opportunity to go to Illumina, which is was the company on our list that was driving the genetic revolution. So if you're not familiar with Illumina as a company, you're probably familiar with twenty three in me and Ancestry. And Illumina is the genetic technology that underlies all of that. So I believe and I held a couple of different roles. The first one was to stimulate the market for adoption of whole genome sequencing, which how do you do that?
[00:06:07] Stimulate the market as in the public market?
[00:06:10] Know, at the time it was academic.
[00:06:11] So a lot of the genetics that have been done to that point had been very targeted, looking at just those small parts of the genome. Right. And so telling a researcher, you know, you could actually spend thousands of dollars for one sample and get more information like, well, why would I do that?
[00:06:25] So it was building the the you know, the background of. A case for like, here's what's missing currently, and this is what you're going to get if you go deeper and the extra cost is much, much doesn't match the value, you get a huge amount of value for doing that. So, of course, at the time knew that we had technology in development that could enable the thousand dollar genome, which was considered to be a tipping point within the field.
[00:06:52] And so we wanted to get people ready for that, knowing that they would want to do whole genomes won. That price point came down to that. Yeah.
[00:06:59] So so once we launched those instruments, I worked myself out of a job and I went to a different role doing market development for complex disease.
[00:07:08] So basically what that meant was that I was looking for areas of health care and research where genetics could make a difference in chronic, typically late onset diseases, but where they just hadn't traditionally been been used. So like I mentioned, genetics had been used for diagnostics and cancer and infectious disease, but not so much in chronic diseases. Right. So I got really, really interested in dementia at that point because the heritability is really high, meaning that the genetic contribution of those diseases is pretty high. So genetics can actually make a difference. And I was the point of contact for a lot of these really large academic disease consortia within Illumina and had launched a couple of products related to dementia. And I kind of reached the point where I was like, wow, we really, really need to make an investment on this. This is like a big area and there are a lot of places and people and companies that need help and genomics could actually help. I got pretty frustrated with trying to do that within a big company and decided that I would do it on my own. So that was kind of how I got into starting a genomics.
[00:08:15] Yeah, that's and that's a great reason, right? There's a whole no one's feeling it. You will. Yep.
[00:08:20] Fantastic. Well, that's I mean, I didn't know that actually. And I feel like I know a little bit about some of the genetic relationship diseases and things like that.
[00:08:29] But you're right, if feel like the focus, even publicly, has been largely on cancers and things of that, especially much like breast cancer and just like those raising awarenesses and things like that.
[00:08:39] So when did you launch? Well, let's start off with what Vivid Genomics is and when when it was launched.
[00:08:46] So Vivid Genomics is a company that's basically pursuing precision medicine for dementia. So our goal is to help identify the variation that exists within dementia, Alzheimer's disease, other related neurodegenerative diseases. And in the near term, that means that the goal is to help pharma companies be successful with their clinical trials because there are no drugs that work for Alzheimer's disease that actually change the course of Alzheimer's disease, despite there being this huge history of attempts and failures. Right. So that's what our company is is addressing in the near term. And then the long term vision is to be able to identify all subtypes of Alzheimer's and dementia so that pharma companies can develop drugs that work optimally for these groups and for everybody to have access to drugs that work for them.
[00:09:39] Right. And when was it launched?
[00:09:42] Started working on this full time early in twenty eighteen.
[00:09:45] And you are the original founder. Did anyone come on with you in those early days or was it solo.
[00:09:51] I had a couple of people that I started the company with. One was a technical founder that was really solid in developing analytics for identifying genetics. And then the other one was had had a bit of a history on the pharma side.
[00:10:09] And I guess things happen with founders saw that, you know, the I think they just decided that they it's a very high risk undertaking. Right. And so you have to be comfortable with like this might not work, but I am going to make it work no matter what, and it's going to happen.
[00:10:28] And so, yeah, out of the ashes I emerged and I was going with it.
[00:10:33] Yeah, that's that's it. Not just like a more common beginning, but it feels like the right kind gives you that like um grit that I think is required during a lot of startups.
[00:10:46] So you mentioned, you talked about how it's Vivid Genomics.
[00:10:51] One of its main goals is kind of to pursue this like this failed drug testing environment for Alzheimer's.
[00:10:59] And particularly, can you kind of speak to how it goes about that, like the techniques and specifically it's employing to try and bridge that gap or even just turn the failure around?
[00:11:10] Yeah. So one of the really well, start with why in general why drugs probably fail within Alzheimer's disease. So this is very generally speaking, obviously.
[00:11:21] So the first is that the drug, the biology, the target is just wrong and it's not going to work. The second is that the drug actually does work. But they've identified the wrong patients to test the drug in, so we address the second part of that problem, which is that we can help stratify patients into people who are likely to respond or likely to not respond, which is also helpful. And then they can test run their analyzes and say, like, would this drug have worked if we had excluded people that we didn't expect to respond? And so within cancer, there's now this precision medicine approach where you do stratify, you do look for the subgroups that you expect to to respond to your drug. But in Alzheimer's disease, everybody falls under one huge umbrella and people have different rates of cognitive decline. They most often actually have multiple forms of dementia. So it's actually the exception to have only Alzheimer's disease. Most people have Alzheimer's disease and something else going on at the same time and people probably of different subtypes of Alzheimer's. So the tests that we were developing are identifying those those aspects of a variation. So the way that we do that technically is we have truth data. So we know that, you know, people were really fast progressors or they were they had Alzheimer's disease, but just didn't get worse. They had really, really slow decline.
[00:12:43] And we caught sorry, we calibrate the genetics or we. Oh, my God.
[00:12:52] It's like I know my words go sometimes, too.
[00:12:55] So do you guys, like, collaborate or do you do you cross pollinate the information when you have, like, all these strata that you're talking about, like you go and you pass out like the different types of dementia and things of that nature? What is it yielding? Is it giving you like a specific group so that the company's thing can come in and only target those groups to have more of a definitive answer?
[00:13:18] So there's different ways the companies might use information. But what basically what we do is that we correlate the genetics to those particular characteristics. So we have we correlate the genetics and we say based on the genetics, this person is likely to be a very slow decliner or based on the genetics, this person is likely to have a whole bunch of different kinds of dementia. And so those are things that you just can't know. There's just no way of getting that information right now when you're starting a clinical trial. So the way that a pharma company could use that information is to say, OK, well, we accept that there might be people that decline really quickly or that have multiple forms of dementia. But we want to make sure they're not stacked in either the placebo arm of the drug arm. Like we want to know that they're like evenly distributed and that we can actually see the difference if the drug works. Yeah. Or they could say and they do this now to some degree, though, they'll analyze their drugs and say, did it work better in women or men or did it work better in people who are under the age of 60, or did it work better in people that had higher cognitive scores at the start of the trial? And so this is additional information that they can use that people know have an effect on cognitive decline.
[00:14:23] But right now, there's just no other way to to to assess that.
[00:14:28] Yeah, I mean, to have a base camp of failure is terrifying, especially for something, as you know, as so represented as Alzheimer's. And I didn't know with the piggybacking different forms of dementia and things like that that often run in tandem with an Alzheimer's patient, it seems like you would need to pass out the kind of information, especially if you're going to have success of the rates that are going to be useful to the major population that Vivid Genomics is acquiring.
[00:14:59] So what what do you see as far as I know right now, what stage would you say it's in Vivid Genomics. You guys have developed it thus far. What what kind of phase is it in?
[00:15:11] Yeah, so we're we're prelaunch. We're not generating revenue right now. We have developed the first test, which is a proof of concept, and it's for a characteristic that every single clinical trial in Alzheimer's disease would use. And basically we have we've acquired a lot of data, thousands and thousands of samples worth of data, and we've got prototypes developed. And so basically right now we're prioritizing which tests to pursue next based on some of this early data information that we've got back. And we'll be launching this test by the end of the year.
[00:15:46] That's exciting. Go changing what what funding? How did you take any seed capital? Was it bootstrapped? What have you done thus far?
[00:15:54] So we've taken all together. I think we've raised about one point two million and half a million of that with friends and family.
[00:16:03] We actually have a grant for one hundred thousand dollars, which is non dilutive funding. And then the balance has come from angel investors.
[00:16:11] That's great. Did you did you do the rounds with pitching or did sort of you just spread? Oh, man, you have to pitch.
[00:16:19] There is there is no possibility for someone to be like, nah, well, just knocked on my door. You know, that moment. That would be lovely if I said I'd like to. You should put them on your show, ask them by.
[00:16:31] Well, I'll make like trucker hats. We'll all be wearing her loud and proud and be awesome.
[00:16:37] I have to ask, though, because you never know if someone had, like, absolutely no difficulty raising or anything, and I've never heard that to be true.
[00:16:44] Has your history with with raising how is that been? Has it been, like, inspiring? Has it been painful with them raising fund raising and things like that?
[00:16:54] Oh, I don't think I would have described it as are inspiring at all. I think painful. Yeah, exactly. Did it help you become like.
[00:17:04] Well, everyone always says if there's positive spins, put on meeting with any kind of investor from VCs to groups to angels, it's that it allowed them to become more intimate with the holes in the company or become more well acquainted with, like their elevator pitch or, I don't know, like Spence put on it like, no, I really needed that and I needed that. That kind of raked over the coals.
[00:17:26] Do you think that's true? I think that the way that I see it, I mean, there's some meetings that you take that are just a complete waste of time and really you get nothing out of it other than frustration and an hour gone from your day.
[00:17:37] But I think, you know, by meeting with lots and lots of people, you do get a critical mass of feedback that can help you hone in on like, you know, there's a bunch of random feedback and some of these things I don't agree with. But these are two themes that are emerging that I think are are valid and I can address them and then I know what to go back with. So, yeah, I think it's just a slog.
[00:18:00] I don't know how to put it that way. And I think, you know, I've talked to other people about it. And one of my mentors is like, look, you know, you see the press release. You don't see the time that, you know, the two co-founders quit and the the you know, yeah.
[00:18:15] Somebody is just like, I can't take it anymore.
[00:18:17] So what you get is this nice, tidy wrapped up in a package. We closed our 2.5 million dollars seed round. And so it is it just hides a lot of the pain behind.
[00:18:25] And I think. Absolutely.
[00:18:27] Well, and you're in the trenches, though, like you've received funding. So I feel like you've got that kind of advancement. So I was looking over the fence is a little bit more daunting than just being in the weeds, even though the weeds aren't any fun and nothing is as fun is like the peak on top already, of course. But, you know, you got to get perspective from wherever you're at, I suppose.
[00:18:45] So you've got some funding over the next like let's say one to three years.
[00:18:51] Like, do you have a goal for your launching some more tests, given the new information that you have in the next few months? But what about like the next one to three years, if you could have it your way? If if if this wasn't anything to do with investment or anything like that, what would your goals for genomics be?
[00:19:08] Yeah, so there are kind of a four stage approach as I think about it. So the first three stages are developing tests that are really in, you know, targeting pharma companies. The fourth stage then is where one of our tests actually gets used in a clinical trial that helps to get a drug approved. We have an opportunity to be a company diagnostics. So that means that our tests would be run on every single person who has Alzheimer's disease before they're prescribed a drug. So that that's still not within the three year window, but being able to launch multiple tests and pursue development and, you know, on the customer side, really be able to have relationships with these companies who've got drugs in the pipeline and drugs and development and show how much it helps to be able to stratify in these these other ways. Mhm.
[00:19:55] Absolutely. So there's no like there's no goal to like get a new office space downtown or anything wrapped up in there.
[00:20:02] There's no less like a paid lunch. And I know it sounds, it sounds good. That sounds very realistic.
[00:20:09] Like you are. I feel like you're in your like toddler to like adolescence.
[00:20:14] That's for with the light with the startup realm, which is interesting. I think it's exciting. It's a it's a great time. Like, it's it's the time you're learning how to, like, really spread. You going to be a titan pretty soon you won't be able to meet up with the little old people like me. And so what if let's walk with me here. Let's say you bump into a young woman or a female identified individual tomorrow and she walks up and says, listen, she's got you know, I got a degree in Ph.D. in evolutionary population genetics from University of Chicago.
[00:20:47] I went to Wall Street for a stint. Wasn't for me. Neither was academia. I'm going to do the startup. I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to do it in. What would be the three main pieces of advice that you would give her just at first blush, if she was just like, you know, your three hottest pieces of advice, what would this be?
[00:21:04] One is build a network of people that you trust that you can reach out to. Don't be afraid to take advice from people. Don't be afraid to turn advice down, but just have have a network of people that you can reach out to. The second is just there's there's an element of just fake it until you make it. And you don't think that anyone doing something I mean, maybe not anyone. I'm sure there are people who are out there that are going to be awesome for this. I think I'm great at now, having never done it before, but I mean, most of the situation is like you have to figure it out as you go along. And in my case, I was like, I just have to trust that I will be good at this. And I've, you know, I'll figure it out. I'm determined to figure it out. So I think just accepting that and accepting that there's going to be some discomfort and just do it anyways is like you just have to do it.
[00:21:51] Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I think those are the probably the two things that are most critical. Yeah. It's just the perseverance. Part of it is is cannot be understated.
[00:22:02] Absolutely.
[00:22:02] Did you ever so given all of your you've had such a kind of a varied path in your past with academia and then Wall Street and now a startup, you've kind of hit all of the main sections I can think of, you know, in business.
[00:22:16] Did you ever acquire mentors along the way, officially or unofficially? And if so, how did they servicio it? Was it was it useful or was it not? And was it an official? Did you make the ask, will you be my mentor? Like, how did that go down?
[00:22:30] Yeah, that's a good question. I did have official mentors and none of them were as helpful as my unofficial mentors. So I think that, you know, again, back to just relationships. I think the strongest mentors that I have are are people that I worked with, that we just had a really good relationship. And I trusted their judgment. And I saw how they interacted with other people. And I wanted to emulate what they did. And so they had respect for me, too. So this is really just became like a relationship over time. You have the official mentorship thing. I don't I'm not I don't know. For me personally, it is just never really panned out. It just feels like it's a little bit forced and people want to do it. But unless it's there in the first place, it's it's just hard to to believe.
[00:23:17] Yeah. It's a prerequisite for accelerator labs and things like that.
[00:23:20] I mean, I guess the word mentor gets really used and abused. Now it's a buzz word to the effect of like ad nauseum these days. But at least for me on my behalf, when something gets that thrown around, you know, it's like referring to all liquid as coffee. It's just it's very complicated when someone's like their a mentor. I'm like, I don't even know what that means anymore.
[00:23:39] Yeah. Yeah. But I think that the official ones it is interesting because they you can get someone, a board member or someone that just doesn't have time for you. I was speaking with someone yesterday or a couple of days ago who said that she did very much the same thing, that she wouldn't have said that they were an official mentor because there was never this kind of she said, I don't even know how I would go about asking someone to do something like that. But she found people that were doing what she liked and functioning their life in a way that she wanted to function her life's work and then just started to emulate them and float in their circles. Yes. Which I think is clever. And I think it's also just having that is a coherent thought. It may be something that's happening subconsciously, but to have that realization of, you know, I'd like to look something like them one day or I'd like my work to emulate them, not even someone else as someone who's senior in age or anything else, but just there and doing what you want to do is clever. And so for me, that's a more powerful form of mentorship.
[00:24:35] Yeah. There is also this concept of personal board of directors, which I appreciate, and I have never formalized that either. But but I but I know it in myself, right. There are certain people in my personal circle or that might even be in my professional circle that I reach out to for particular things. Right. And I will get advice from them. Or I just I trust their specific area of expertize more than more than, say, having them as a as a general mentor and, you know, for the company. So just to differentiate between strategic advisers and mentors, you mentors as being more of a personal thing for strategic advisors. We absolutely have those as part of the company. And I think it's critical. So, yeah, we have that.
[00:25:17] And I think it's it's definitely valuable to have people that have done what you've done before and maybe even in a similar industry that you can draw upon and say, like, how did you do this thing? Or I'm kind of, you know, tangled up in my own thinking on this. Like, how would you approach this or what have you done in the past or what have you seen work? So I think that absolutely it's useful to have people particular question about like, you know, a formal mentor.
[00:25:44] I don't know. No, not necessarily. And the personal board of directors, I'm putting that on a t shirt. I haven't really I feel like I maybe heard it and passed it off. But now that you're saying it, I think that is fantastic on a lot of different sarcastic levels, but maybe on a serious one as well, because I do believe I had a guest a couple of months ago on a podcast and she said one of her pieces of advice was, be careful who you receive advice from.
[00:26:09] And it's because and she she was advanced in her career and that was her third startup. But she was saying, you know, she had found in her own personal experience, whether or not it's true, can people can attest to on their own personal merit. But as a woman, you're always getting advice more so than than male startup co-founders, people, she said with a. I assume from what shoes and clothing to wear all the way up to how to handle her, you know, her pitch deck and she had this was her company and she said, I think that people need to be very cautious about taking everybody's advice. You know, her suggestion was to mildly profile, you know who it is. It's giving you advice. And so this personal board of directors concept of, you know, making sure that you're taking advice from, like you say, your actual legitimate board or whomever is, you know, serving as your advisers. But then the personal board of directors, after I stop being sarcastic in my head with the concept, is it's I think it's a good idea to take, you know, to take stock of how many people you really want advising you, because I've talked to a lot of female founders that say, you know, even my family thought this was a bad idea.
[00:27:12] And it's just I think we come from this place, regardless of where you land on how unequal you think the stakes are in the startup game with women as opposed to men or any gender in between. And there is a culture in this country of, you know, of making women try harder for those goals and things like that. Part of that is questioning everything they do or saying you don't want to do that.
[00:27:33] Why would you do that? You know, and all of those stakes of doubt. And so developing a personal board of directors, this group of people where you're like, I'm going to take advice from them, you know, and I'll reach out to them. And even what you mentioned, you know, taking questions to them force is clarity on our own brains. You know, it forces you to design those questions, which I think is powerful. So I will I will absolutely take that more seriously. I'll use that phrase from now on. I'll get a teacher paid a personal board and I'm going to evict people from it when they anger me as well.
[00:28:02] You know, you're on my personal or do it. I like you. Maybe you're laughing about that. But seriously, if I will bring you down, you got to clear it out.
[00:28:09] There's just no time and no one's got the emotional energy or the time. Just don't do it. I agree. I think there does seem to be I've now that I've been in this long enough, I can also profile people where there does seem to be this like cottage industry of maybe former entrepreneurs who had successful exits and now they don't want to do it again because it's really hard.
[00:28:32] But, man, it's true love to be involved in somebody else's stuff. And just what do you do and tell me what you're doing.
[00:28:36] Maybe I can be helpful and you're like, I just don't know how I feel. Yeah. So, yeah, there's certainly, you know, it's one thing to build the network. Yes, I absolutely do that. But I think being very cautious and just knowing in your head, like if you're getting advice from someone, it just feels really, really wrong. And you don't know that person, you don't trust them anyways. Why would you ever consider it. Yeah.
[00:28:56] Yeah. And exactly. I mean where they're coming from, the motive. I agree. Vetting your sources on any level.
[00:29:03] But yeah, I mean, I think women are given orders in advice. I use even the term advice nicely because I think people just kind of tend to tell women what to do, regardless of what role they're. And so really looking at that and becoming clear about what questions you have, I think taking advice from questions you have only might be a good idea for a lot of founders as well. You know, having someone just immediately advise when you didn't have a question under it is suspect on some level to. Absolutely. So, yeah.
[00:29:32] Well, it's been a fascinating walk down the street. I am. I love the idea of Vivid Genomics. I am going to hunt you down.
[00:29:37] I want to come back and circle back to you in about a year and find out it's going to be an exciting year for you and for me watching probably.
[00:29:44] All right. So thank you so much, Julie, for sitting down with us today.
[00:29:50] I really appreciate it. Thank you. This is great. Absolutely. And for everyone listening, thank you for the past 30 minutes of your time.
[00:29:58] And until we meet again, remember to always bet on yourself Slainte.
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