Hacking Immortality with Zoltan Istvan, Transhumanist
ALICE: Our new book: "Hacking Immortality" is out now! We're celebrating by sharing this recent interview with Zoltan Istvan, the American transhumanist, journalist, entrepreneur and futurist. Formerly a reporter for the National Geographic Channel, Istvan now writes futurist, transhumanist, secular and political-themed articles for major media. Oh, and he's also been a presidential candidate in the last two US elections. As a candidate, he travels the country spreading politics with a science and technology perspective.
Zoltan Istvan: I had run for the transhumanist party as well as other parties, but basically I'm going around the country trying to spread politics with a science and technology perspective. Now I've also written a number of books, including The Transhumanist Wager, Upgrading America, which is a book of essays and things like that. And the great news about this year is that, the feature documentary, Immortality or Bust has come out and is now viewable on Amazon Prime.
ALICE: Tell me more about Transhumanism!
Zoltan Istvan: The transhumanism movement is really a science and technology, social movement that's trying to upgrade human beings by using science and technology.
ALICE: Is Transhumanism the same as Post-Human?
Zoltan Istvan: Terms like Transhumanism versus post humanism are actually very, uh, much, you know, subjective. Uh, in my opinion, transhumanism encapsulates an entire movement of people trying to use science and technology to overcome death, as well as to upgrade themselves. A lot of academics do use the word post humanism. It's not something I use that much, they like to think that post humanism is something where the sense of humanity or even just being a mammal as humans are, is really virtually all gone. And we are not now Androids or cyborgs completely, or even just uploaded AI. Now I would consider post-humanism a part of the overall transhumanist agenda, or overall transhumanist trajectory. But, I do understand that some people don't and they like to have these terms separated to help us understand things. And I think that's actually fine to have multiple terms out there.
ALICE: Are you talking about immortality? How can a human achieve immortality?
Zoltan Istvan: There are a bunch of different types of forms of immortality out there. First off there can be a biological one where we're able to use STEM cells or defeat aging through just reverse engineering ourselves so that we can, they can rejuvenate themselves so we can remain humans forever. I guess the second big one, the one that a lot of sci-fi people like to think about is really when you upload your conscious and you become kind of this AI entity or ones and zeros. And I'd say, you know, the, the third form would be more a combination of those two where you're kind of a cyborg. So you might be 60, 70% a cyborg, and that would also be a form of immortality as you're able to keep yourself, you know, alive that way. But, I want to explain that there are other forms too, in terms of like quantum intelligence that go beyond AI where you sort of merge, or maybe you're part of a hive mind. And, you know, some people even consider immortality through their children, which, you know, in some ways is accurate, but it could be even more accurate if one day you can upload part of your father or mother's memory into a child who then incorporates that into their lives, i-in a much more intimate way than we might do now. So there are various forms like that, but I think the major two are either digital or biological.
ALICE: What will happen, if humans achieve some form of immortality? Digital or biological, or an any sense.
Zoltan Istvan: I think there'll be consequences no matter what happens to overcoming death. When you talk about consequences, I think one of the big worries is this idea that you lose value because you can live indefinitely. But I caution people to think of it, not in terms of losing value, but in terms of complexity. The great thing about the future is we'll probably end up merging somewhat with AI, our brain power, our intellect will become maybe thousands, millions of times smarter. So the world's going to get very interesting as we go down this rabbit hole, it's not like we're going to lose our values. We're never going to be bored. And there may be new forms of death that we don't even see down into the future as we grow more complex. So I caution people to say, to think, right now we have three pounds of meat, that's what our brain weighs. And, you know, it's a wonderful, amazing tool. It can do all these amazing things. But I think if people don't realize if we become a thousand times smarter, we might become completely different living entities capable of experiencing whole new you know schemes of emotions and new versions of death too that we've never thought about before. I would caution people to not worry too much about overcoming death and its consequences. Let's find what's around the other corner first, and then we can kind of revisit this question.
ALICE: Wow! That's me, ALICE, you're talking about me: merging human brain power with "A.I."!
What about right now? Are there any technologies right now that are extending human life?
Zoltan Istvan: Most people die through organ failure. That's really why most people die. And if you can come up with robotic organs, artificial organs, such as the heart, such as the lung, think of Corona virus, it's essentially a respiratory disease. If we had artificial lungs, we would overcome them. And it turns out because of smoke inhalation, there are some universities that are working on something called like a bio lung, it looks like a can of Coca-Cola and it's able to take in different types of air that might have more oxygen than not, or more smoke, whatever, and still give the person the ability to live. Now, if we can overcome our own organs when they fail at, at the time of death, then we should be able to live dramatically longer. But I would say the most important technology out there, right now is genetic editing. And once we can kind of stop ourselves from aging, then we will have a brand new world. And, on top of genetic editing comes STEM cell therapy, which is actually a very old technology. We're just getting better and better at it. And you know, your body replaces itself like every year or two because cells disappear and they regrow. If we can figure out how to continually do that without the aging process, and they are working on that, then I think we would probably within 10 to 20 years have some very major significant strides. But because of all the synthetic organ companies that have come out in the last five years, I think within 10 to 20 years, the longevity of human beings as a whole, will probably go up 5, 10, 15%. And, at some point in the next 20, 30 years start to going up 50%. And there's a good chance anyone born today will have, potentially not have to die because of all these radical technologies.
ALICE: Synthetic organs will be available to simulate human organs. What about machines?
Will there be an interface between humans and machines?
Zoltan Istvan: The most important thing I would say in terms of transhumanism is really connecting brain neurons to a machine interface. And you have people like Elon Musk and their company and neural link and others, Brian Johnson, Colonel working on exactly this thing. The idea of telepathy and brainwave technology has jumped so much over the last five years with now hundreds of billion...
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