Cold Wars, AI, and Art for Aliens with Rebecca Charbonneau

What can the history of science tell us about the world we live in today and where we might be headed tomorrow? To find out, Dr. Charles Liu and co-host Allen Liu welcome historian of science Rebecca Charbonneau, PhD from the American Institute of Physics and the National Radio Astronomy Observatory with expertise in radio astronomy and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI).

This episode kicks off with Allen and Chuck talking about January’s Lunar Occultation of Mars. You can see a photo taken by Chuck on our YouTube Community tab.

And then it’s time for today’s joyfully cool cosmic thing: a recent paper in the Astrophysical Journal Letters confirming there are galaxies that were fully formed just 400 million years after The Big Bang. Chuck, who studies galactic evolution, tells us why this changes our understanding of galaxy formation. Rebecca talks about how new ideas can be controversial and how personalities, politics and cultures can impact the evolution of science. She brings up the current controversy in astronomy concerning the locations of terrestrial telescopes and the tension between scientific and cultural imperatives. She also recounts seeing people in Russia wearing NASA t-shirts and explains how NASA understood the importance of controlling the narrative, even inviting Norman Rockwell to popularize the space program.

Our first question comes from Pablo P. on Patreon, who asks, “Can humanity be destroyed by AI powered by quantum computing?” Rebecca explains how during the Cold War, scientists on both sides engaged in “science diplomacy” that helped lower tensions. She applies this thinking to AI, pointing out that while a “Terminator-like” scenario is unlikely, public concern is causing the tech world to confront and grapple with real threats from AI like biases in hiring algorithms.

Allen, a mathematician who writes about AI professionally, addresses whether AI powered by quantum computing is more dangerous than AI in general. Rebecca shares the terrifying story of a Soviet nuclear submarine and the US navy during the Cuban Missile Crisis that nearly started a nuclear war. The dissenting actions of a single officer named Vasily Arkhipov made the difference, and she wonders if AI would have made the same decision based on the available data.

For our next question, we return to our Pablo P. from Patreon for his follow up: “How [do] we answer the question about whether or not we are engaging in self-destructive behavior?” Chuck and Rebecca discuss the confluence of astronomy and the military, and how the history of the SETI program highlights their shared concerns. You’ll find out what the Drake Equation has to do with concepts like The Great Filter. Science, she reminds us, is a tool to try to get closer to the truth, but it’s not always perfect in pointing out whether what we’re doing is safe or potentially self-destructive.

Then we turn to Rebecca’s other big passion, art history and the window into the human experience that art provides. Charles brings up The Scream by Edvard Munch and the fact that it’s actually a depiction of a real atmospheric event. Rebecca talks the use of fractal studies to determine the authenticity of Jackson Pollock art. She also explores the artistic value of scientific artifacts like the controversial plaque attached to Pioneer 10 depicting a naked man and woman, and the interstellar Arecibo Message, sent by Frank Drake in 1974. You’ll even hear how Frank worked himself into the message and what that has to do with Albrecht Durer’s self-portrait painted in the year 1500.

Finally, we turn to what Rebecca’s been up to recently. Her new book Mixed Signals came out in January of this year. Keep up with her on her website at and follow her on X @rebecca_charbon and on BlueSky @rebeccacharbon.bsky.social.

We hope you enjoy this episode of The LIUniverse, and, if you do, please support us on Patreon.

Credits for Images Used in this Episode:

• A young Milky Way-like galaxy and a background quasar 12 billion and 12.5 billion light-years away, respectively. – Credit: ALMA (ESO/NAOJ/NRAO), M. Neeleman & J. Xavier Prochaska; Keck Observatory
• Artist’s concept of a high red-shift galaxy. – Credit: Alexandra Angelich (NRAO/AUI/NSF)
• John Young and Gus Grissom are suited for the first Gemini flight March 1965. Norman Rockwell, 1965. – Credit: Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum / Norman Rockwell
• Edvard Munch, 1893, The Scream. – Credit: Edvard Munch / National Gallery of Norway (Public Domain)
• Fractal study of Jackson Pollock art. – Credit: “Perceptual and physiological responses to Jackson Pollock’s fractals,” R. Taylor, et al, Front. Hum. Neurosci., 21 June 2011.
• The Arecibo message. – Credit: Creative Commons
• NASA image of Pioneer 10's famed Pioneer plaque. – Credit: NASA
• Albrecht Durer self-portrait. – Credit: Albrecht Dürer - Alte Pinakothek (Public Domain)