Natasha Kassam of the Lowy Institute joins the podcast this week, to join Darren in facing interrogation from Allan arising from their co-authored essay, published this week in Australian Foreign Affairs (Issue 11) entitled “Future Shock: How to Prepare for a China-led World”. The questions the essay tries to answer are: what would China’s leadership of the international order look like, what does this mean for Australia, and what (if anything) can Australia do to protect its interests?
What follows is a genuinely substantive and complex discussion about the nature of China’s intentions for the global order and the consequences of its actions. Does China—or more accurately the Chinese Community Party—really need the liberal dimensions of the order “suppressed or eliminated”, as Natasha and Darren argue? If so, which parts? The issue of transparency is central to their argument, and the domains of public health and human rights are key examples. Nevertheless, is China’s challenge to the order that different from that of any other rising power, or Donald Trump for that matter? And which actions represent genuine challenges, versus a more traditional assertion of interests, such as Joe Biden’s recent claim that America’s democratic values are “the grounding wire of… our global power”? And finally, what can Australia do?
The China debate in Australia has become increasingly fraught and acrimonious in recent years and, as always, this episode represents an effort to hash out complex and truly difficult issues by providing all three participants the time and space to contextualise (and caveat) their views.
We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with audio editing today and, as he departs, more generally for outstanding work during his time with us, as well as Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant Links
Australian Foreign Affairs, Issue 11, “The march of autocracy” (2021): https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/essay/2021/02/the-march-of-autocracy
Natasha Kassam and Darren Lim “How China is remaking the world in its vision”, The Conversation, 22 February 2021 (extract of AFA essay): https://theconversation.com/how-china-is-remaking-the-world-in-its-vision-155377
Kai Kupferschmidt, “ ‘Politics was always in the room.’ WHO mission chief reflects on China trip seeking COVID-19’s origin” Science, 14 February 2021: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/02/politics-was-always-room-who-mission-chief-reflects-china-trip-seeking-covid-19-s
Mara Hvistendahl, “How Oracle sells repression in China”, The Intercept, 18 February 2021: https://theintercept.com/2021/02/18/oracle-china-police-surveillance/
Marise Payne, “Australia and the world in the time of Covid-19” Speech at the National Security College, ANU, 16 June 2020: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/speech/australia-and-world-time-covid-19
António Guterres, “Secretary-General Guterres calls for a global reset, ‘to recover better, guided by human rights’”, Speech to the Human Rights Council, 22 February 2021: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=26769
Jon Emont, “How China Persuaded One Muslim Nation to Keep Silent on Xinjiang Camps”, Wall Street Journal, 11 December 2019: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-china-persuaded-one-muslim-nation-to-keep-silent-on-xinjiang-camps-11576090976
Joe Biden, “Remarks on America’s place in the world” US State Department HQ, 4 February 2021: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/02/04/remarks-by-president-biden-on-americas-place-in-the-world/
Frances Adamson, DFAT Secretary, on our 50th episode
Ep. 49: US turmoil; India CSP; G-7; WHO lessons; HK; Australian geoeconomics
Ep. 48: Harinder Sidhu, former High Commissioner to India, on the Australia-India relationship
Ep. 47: Heather Smith on fixing the G20, industrial policy, tech competition, and what economists get wrong
Ep. 46: Australia-China tensions over a Covid-19 inquiry
Ep. 45: The WHO; “mask diplomacy”; DFAT & Covid-19
Ep. 44: The United States, and the alliance
Ep. 43: The consequences of Covid-19
Ep. 42: Covid-19 update; ASIO speaks; Morrison hosts Jokowi & Ardern
Ep. 41: Richard Maude on the Indo-Pacific, models of world politics, and Australian foreign policy
Ep. 40: Coronavirus; Huawei in the UK; the WTO, and UK / EU trade deals
Ep. 39: The 2020 Raisina Dialogue
Ep. 38: Gordon de Brouwer on economics vs security, climate change, and effective policymaking
Ep. 37: The bushfires, internationally; the Soleimani killing; reviewing 2019, looking ahead to 2020
Ep. 36: Ex-ASIO head Duncan Lewis (Part 2): foreign interference and national security policymaking in Australia
Ep. 35: Ex-ASIO head Duncan Lewis (Part 1): on his military & govt career, and the challenge of terrorism
Ep. 34: All things China (again)! Defectors? Sleeper agents? MP visas & Hong Kong
Ep. 33: US leadership: vision vs reality; RCEP; human rights in China; Syria, the Kurds and US credibility
Ep. 32: The Australia-China Relationship
Ep. 31: Debating PM Morrison’s Lowy Lecture
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