A Vision of a ‘Society Without Capitalism’

Democratic socialists are having a moment. But can they actually remake the Democratic Party — and the American economy — in their image? My guest today, Bhaskar Sunkara, is longtime democratic socialist, and he makes the case that socialism has a universal appeal that transcends our current politics and will ultimately triumph against capitalism.

• 0:00 Intro
• 1:24 The rise of democratic socialism
• 5:00 Why is this a breakthrough moment for Democratic Socialism?
• 8:24 Class Realities: The demographics of socialist voters
• 9:26 The intellectual foundations of the American left
• 11:02 What socialists want: Affordable housing, Medicare for All
• 15:55 Socialist housing policy: construction, rent control, public housing
• 18:17 The socialist approach to AI and technological change
• 22:16 The case for unions
• 24:18 Is Democratic Socialism compatible with capitalism?
• 25:57 Class conflict vs. the identity politics of the wokeness era
• 29:00 The ideological conflict between Hillary Clinton liberals and the Bernie Sanders left
• 30:40 This Socialist wants the left to stop hating America
• 36:38 Why Israel-Palestine and anti-imperialism are central issues for Democratic Socialists
• 45:51 Luigi Mangione and the illiberal left
• 50:37 Is Zohran Mamdani a moderate?
• 51:54 Was Joe Biden's presidency a socialist experiment?
• 55:42 Raising taxes to expand the welfare state

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.